Mega Thread The Random Thoughts Thread Part 1

[raman]

Modern medicine has all but eradicated polio.

"Natural" medicine has all but eradicated the black rhino.

Despite being morally indefensible, the "personal choice" catch-cry also perpetuates a false balance; the idiotic notion that all ideas are equally valid.

 

[proman_x]

But that's the very nature of science!

Theories are tested, trials are undertaken, findings are peer-reviewed and the knowledge base increases.

Vaccine safety has evolved in a similar manner, except the anti-vax 'crackpots' you're championing won't accept the repeated findings that VACCINES DON'T CAUSE AUTISM (the theory of which was based on falsified information in the first place).

Tribey how many scientific papers have you been involved with ?

There are not.

By perpetuating these myths you are giving oxygen to the anti-vaccination movement and therefore championing their cause. This isn't a philosophical debate - "ah well, agree to disagree LOL"/"each to their own *wink*" - this is a growing movement, predicated on lies and junk science, that puts the very health of the public at risk.

The dark side of the internet isn't pr0n, or even how to make explosives using the stuff under your sink, it's the fact it's being used as a conduit for idiots to metastasise their idiocy at the expense of those most at risk.

I agree with you on the dark side. My posts were from legitimate science papers. Not some left wing conspiracy web site. As you stated before. Science is about pushing the envelope, peer review etc. They are peer reviewed studies. Believing there is no risk and not accepting a possibility is as bad as the other side.

To me it comes down to what is the % of risk, plain and simple. I believe there is far less risk of damage from the vaccine then not getting it in the first place

 

[proman_x]

Not for a newborn child, or that same child for some years down the line. Their being left unimmunised is not their choice.

Agreed. That's why I had my child immunised

 

[tribey]

Tribey how many scientific papers have you been involved with ?

I agree with you on the dark side. My posts were from legitimate science papers. Not some left wing conspiracy web site. As you stated before. Science is about pushing the envelope, peer review etc. They are peer reviewed studies. Believing there is no risk and not accepting a possibility is as bad as the other side.

To me it comes down to what is the % of risk, plain and simple. I believe there is far less risk of damage from the vaccine then not getting it in the first place

Your first link was a small cohort, funded in part by an Autism association whose official stance on the disorder and vaccines is that there is no link and they encourage all parents to vaccinate.

 

[edgie]

Underbelly: Lunch Van

Promises to be the best series yet.

Don't f@%k with Crystal.

Or else.

Bitch.

It's a jungle out there

 

[Ford Fairlane]

I thought one of the attractions of these lunch vans was cheaper food given they don't have massive overheads and yet their prices are getting more and more comparable to a decent pub burger. Are their overheads going into black market AK47s?

 

[Kickpuncher]

Anti vaxers are screwballs.

 

[raman]

Anti vaxers are screwballs.

"I'm not an antivaxer but they're just a bunch of nice well meaning guys"ers are somehow worse.

 

[I Dont Care]

I never had my TB vacc. done(wagging school at the wrong/right time). That's why I'm borderline insane, plus we don't have fluoride in our water. Have mercy on me fate

 

[PepeSilvia]

I don't want to read through all of the shit, but I would like to add my part.

Anyone who doesn't have their children vaccinated, is an irresponsible ****ing moron.

 

[Powerstufff]

.... My posts were from legitimate science papers ....

There are a squillion scientific papers published. But that alone does not make them legitimate, which is something that accidentally confuses many and is taken advantage of by a few. Serious research and/or analysis gets submitted to scientific journals, of which there is a hierarchy from vanity press (people pay to have their work published) to internationally recognised leading journals in their field. At the upper end they are peer reviewed to ensure they are worthy for publication. Then once out and published they are forever available for later criticism. It is about now you would be entitled to call them legitimate.
One very famous and very damaging paper survived the first part of this process some years back, see RETRACTED: Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children. By the time The Lancet realised it had made an error the genie was out of the bottle and can never be put back in. See The MMR vaccine and autism: Sensation, refutation, retraction, and fraud for more.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Championing ????? Where have I champed them ? I simply posted some possible links that's it. Did I say DONT IMMUNISE cause they are all evil bastards and it causes autism ? Come on tribey. If you actually read my original post. I stated that most of the papers I read was talking more about the heavy metals and pre disposed Genetic aspects.

Proman, the problem with the sort of stuff you've displayed in this thread is that it gives these assholes legitimacy that they don't deserve.

There doesn't need to be any "well I get where they're coming from" about this. Where they are coming from is a place where it's apparently okay to ignore absolutely overwhelming scientific evidence to sprout fatally dangerous bullshit.

The safest and best way to resolve this issue at this point is to enforce vaccination and remove children from parents if they aren't getting vaccinated.
Their free speech can go and **** itself. Diseases that have been controlled for decades are now back and killing people. These insidious pieces of shit are to blame.

Don't give them legitimacy they don't deserve. Their claims are totally 100% false.

 

[Jim Dixon]

TB is making a comeback in North America's poorer communities. A bitch of a disease that can be prevented.

 

[Killer Power]

If only we had discovered a vaccination for "stupid" in the 60's then maybe there wouldn't be so many parents refusing to vaccinate their kids.

 

[Forzaport]

So you are admitting there has been issues with vaccines ? But basically they have either changed the vaccine or administered it in a different format. When those vaccines were allowed on the market they would have been originally deemed "safe" but they caused severe issues with SOME geno types, not 98% of the people but say just 2%. As I stated on my original post. I would still vaccinate my child as I think overall the risk is much higher for other potential life threatening diseases to occur if I did not.

To call someone a screwball (not saying you did) for believing something different from the masses starts getting a little self pretentious. You, me, raman, etc. have the right to believe what we want to believe, wether it is correct or not is another story.

I was simply saying. You can not howl down those that want to believe what they do. There maybe 1000 to 1 against but there are still risks and or links associated. Stating it is fantasy is incorrect.

If most people really knew that in general many pharmaceuticals have severe risks attached to them, many probably would be seeking more natural alternatives. It probably explains why so many GP's now are also doing naturopathic studies. When we were kids that was basically as rare as rocking horse shit. There has to be a reason for it. It is up to the individual to make that choice. I have no rite to tell someone else how and when they should be medicated. That is just my view.


Government will probably legislate that either you vaccinate or your child or you will not be allowed into schools or day care centres etc. Again I have no issue with that, but some may. A lot more home schooling will probably start if they do. Many have the belief that most diseases are present because nutrition is a major issue or due to the overload of chemicals being used. When we look at general diets these days and how nutrition in our food has dramatically reduced over the last 60 odd years there could possibly be something in that.

Edit... When I first started learning about soil and soil biology, micro biology, etc (25 years ago). People like Dr. Elaine Ingham were howled down for even imagining there were direct correlations between soil health and soil biology or when she stated there were over 200,000 species of Bacteria in good compost or 30,000 species of Fungi in good compost. Many of those same people who tried to prove her wrong are now saying its closer to 400,00 to 500,000 and 100,000 + Fungi. We run a real risk of not moving ahead with science if we close our minds and call people crack pots, etc. Wether I agree or disagree I still keep an open mind.

It's fact that there have been issues with vaccines. If the expectation is that vaccinations are infallible, then you're going to be disappointed. There's no logical reason why such impossible standards are set for vaccines but not for other medicines. If the same impossible standards were set for all medicines, then no medicine should be taken. That's madness. There's always a risk whether its a vaccine, anti-biotic, anti-histamine or paracetamol. We're not talking about a belief system here - we're talking science, risk and benefit. With vaccinations, the benefits overwhelmingly outweigh the risks.

Again linking vaccinations and autism is fantasy. The associations are so weak that it appears the statistics were massaged to get the desired p value. Grouping autism with a speech or language impairment (third paper you linked - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535) is plain wrong and should never have got through peer review. I would guess that if autism and SLI were separated as they in no way go together, there'd be no association with vaccines whatsoever.

GPs are looking into alternative medicines, although the main reason is not because of the risks of pharmaceuticals, but because Western medicine does have its limits. It should be noted though that whenever an alternative medicine has been validated to actually work, it becomes part of Western medicine. People are certainly entitled to decide for themselves with regard to their health but there comes a point where those decisions impact on others and that's when problems begin. There was a good article on the BBC recently about the return of measles because parents are increasingly deciding not to immunise (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-30942928).

 

[Asgardian]

If only we had discovered a vaccination for "stupid" in the 60's then maybe there wouldn't be so many parents refusing to vaccinate their kids.

And less crowbot supporters

 

[Doctor Feel]

 

[Doctor Feel]

my god, i need to make a trip to the port club. lamb, beef and chicken patties with loads of cheese, bacon plus onion rings.

 

[raman]

LOL I just put that in the Port Club thread, but I dig your higher-res pic.

 

[Doctor Feel]

LOL I just put that in the Port Club thread, but I dig your higher-res pic.

hahaha it does it justice.

 

[manureid]

my god, i need to make a trip to the port club. lamb, beef and chicken patties with loads of cheese, bacon plus onion rings.

View attachment 105085

My heart just stopped looking at it...but my lord it looks good!

 

[elsler]

nah i just couldn't do that my arteries would never forgive me

 

[I Dont Care]

my god, i need to make a trip to the port club. lamb, beef and chicken patties with loads of cheese, bacon plus onion rings.

View attachment 105085

Really would do. I mean really

 

[proman_x]

Proman, the problem with the sort of stuff you've displayed in this thread is that it gives these assholes legitimacy that they don't deserve.

There doesn't need to be any "well I get where they're coming from" about this. Where they are coming from is a place where it's apparently okay to ignore absolutely overwhelming scientific evidence to sprout fatally dangerous bullshit.

The safest and best way to resolve this issue at this point is to enforce vaccination and remove children from parents if they aren't getting vaccinated.
Their free speech can go and **** itself. Diseases that have been controlled for decades are now back and killing people. These insidious pieces of shit are to blame.

Don't give them legitimacy they don't deserve. Their claims are totally 100% false.

Point taken. The risk of what happens when some of these awful diseases rise up, far out ways any risk of vaccination, that is my reasoning when approaching it.

In my job I am always dealing with "alternative" lifestyle people, along with main stream farmers etc it is always a challenge trying to balance the vastly different mentalities.

There are a squillion scientific papers published. But that alone does not make them legitimate, which is something that accidentally confuses many and is taken advantage of by a few. Serious research and/or analysis gets submitted to scientific journals, of which there is a hierarchy from vanity press (people pay to have their work published) to internationally recognised leading journals in their field. At the upper end they are peer reviewed to ensure they are worthy for publication. Then once out and published they are forever available for later criticism. It is about now you would be entitled to call them legitimate.
One very famous and very damaging paper survived the first part of this process some years back, see RETRACTED: Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children. By the time The Lancet realised it had made an error the genie was out of the bottle and can never be put back in. See The MMR vaccine and autism: Sensation, refutation, retraction, and fraud for more.

Yes I guess that is the mine field of research, Power I have been working with universities and academics for a couple of decades. I know that research is often bias and questionable, especially when they are paying big bucks to have it done. Either way my post was not meant to open a can of worms just add to the debate.

As I have stated many times, I do not believe it is a wise move to not immunise.

It's fact that there have been issues with vaccines. If the expectation is that vaccinations are infallible, then you're going to be disappointed. There's no logical reason why such impossible standards are set for vaccines but not for other medicines. If the same impossible standards were set for all medicines, then no medicine should be taken. That's madness. There's always a risk whether its a vaccine, anti-biotic, anti-histamine or paracetamol. We're not talking about a belief system here - we're talking science, risk and benefit. With vaccinations, the benefits overwhelmingly outweigh the risks.


Again linking vaccinations and autism is fantasy. The associations are so weak that it appears the statistics were massaged to get the desired p value. Grouping autism with a speech or language impairment (third paper you linked - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21623535) is plain wrong and should never have got through peer review. I would guess that if autism and SLI were separated as they in no way go together, there'd be no association with vaccines whatsoever.

GPs are looking into alternative medicines, although the main reason is not because of the risks of pharmaceuticals, but because Western medicine does have its limits. It should be noted though that whenever an alternative medicine has been validated to actually work, it becomes part of Western medicine. People are certainly entitled to decide for themselves with regard to their health but there comes a point where those decisions impact on others and that's when problems begin. There was a good article on the BBC recently about the return of measles because parents are increasingly deciding not to immunise (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-30942928).

Didn't I say the same thing regarding risk of one far exceeding the risk of the other ? No argument from me on that. That's why I vaccinated my child.

I can not speak for others but a number of GP's I have discussed this with have stated simular to what you have mentioned but some have also said that in many cases the side effects of medication are to severe for certain people so they want to have another avenue to draw from.

My Partner has fibromyalgia, she has had it for 20 odd years, at one stage they had her on 18 medications a day, it was costing us a fortune! She was like a zombie, It got to the point she went into toxic shock, was in hospital for months, was a very scary time for her and us. After finally deciding we would try diet (grow our own food mainly) and try some herbal medications she is now on no pharmaceuticals, still has the disorder but at least it is manageable.

I realised after all this, that most Dr's. really have no idea unless it comes from a drug catalogue, most didn't really care what Jo and I were going thru, they seemed more interested in how many patience they could pump thru a day. And believe me we went thru dozens of Dr's.


This will be my last post on vaccinations. I just thought I would add to the debate, never meant to spark you lot up, I have taken what many of you have said and agree with 99% of it. Now bring on 2015, 2016 and 2017 the years of the PAFC!!

 

[philreich]

If only we had discovered a vaccination for "stupid" in the 60's then maybe there wouldn't be so many parents refusing to vaccinate their kids.

If there was a vaccination for stupid, Stephen Rowe might have been smarter....