List Mgmt. Trade & F/A - 2020

[Robroy22]

IF Walker is that good why was he De-Listed and No Team had any Interest during the Trade Period?

Because he's slow (in the legs and in the decision making process) If the ball comes into his immediate zone he can compete, if not then he's limited. Comparing him to Moore is just ridiculous.

If you're content to play a draft horse at CHB he's your man. Fair dinkum, I'd rather use Reid there and he's been a dead duck defender for years now due to his lack of agility.

 

[soreplums]

Robinson is the one I don't see room or a role for.

Walker and Keays I feel can be best 22.

Keays many won't be familiar with unless you've seen him either as a junior or in the NEAFL, but he's someone mid/fwd who goes very well. Wins his own ball, classy/composed ball user who hits his i50 targets, good mover and has the endurance base, production and scoreboard impact is there, very strong mark overhead. He has the attributes but hasn't received the opportunities. An ideal forward to have rolling through the midfield for decent periods.

Sounds promising. Who do you see him replacing in our forward 22?

 

[Knightmare]

Sounds promising. Who do you see him replacing in our forward 22?

I favour Keays to both Thomas and Brown. Assuming Brown improves incrementally a little more in 2020, Thomas would be the one I'd have Keays replacing.

 

[sr36]

Sometimes Clubs just want to move on with a player, who might be a bit stale, but with stale bread another club can make croutons which taste good in the soup.

Player delisted goes to new club and then puts every extra effort in to their last chance.

All sorts of reasons.

But if Sier comes good, the soup will be too thick to add croutons.

 

[sr36]

I favour Keays to both Thomas and Brown. Assuming Brown improves incrementally a little more in 2020, Thomas would be the one I'd have Keays replacing.

You described his marking as being strong. Does he hit up or is front and centre his go? I don't want us to add any more hit up targets. Our forward line needs blokes who provide roving and tackling heat. Particularly if its Thomas and Brown we're looking to upgrade.

 

[Knightmare]

Because he's slow (in the legs and in the decision making process) If the ball comes into his immediate zone he can compete, if not then he's limited. Comparing him to Moore is just ridiculous.

If you're content to play a draft horse at CHB he's your man. Fair dinkum, I'd rather use Reid there and he's been a dead duck defender for years now due to his lack of agility.

Walker is good not only 1v1/taking intercept marks/contested marks but he's also above average defending v leading forwards.

Reid at this age and stage I wouldn't play ahead of Walker as either a key defender or key forward even.

Reid is the key position player I'd allow to walk to give Walker the spot as a direct list replacement. Walker is younger and an upgrade from depth (Reid) to a genuine best 22 player who even if Moore stays back I'd be playing ahead of Roughead and Dunn.

 

[Knightmare]

You described his marking as being strong. Does he hit up or is front and centre his go? I don't want us to add any more hit up targets. Our forward line needs blokes who provide roving and tackling heat. Particularly if its Thomas and Brown we're looking to upgrade.

Keays is an upgrade all-around on both.

Keays can mark 1v1, on the lead, aerially. He has all that on a high level for someone his size/type and he can hit the scoreboard in bunches. He's also capable at ground level and as a pressure player so you're not really losing anything in those regards. But it's just not the only reason he's good. He has the versatility to push deep and exploit defenders, but he can play across half-forward and hit up leading targets as well as probably anyone outside Pendlebury for Collingwood, through the midfield he can win it to a good level and cover plenty of ground. Has a really nice inside/outside balance as someone you can put in there at stoppages and have win it or play on the outside and add class and cover some ground.

So just with how diverse Keays' game is, he doesn't have to be someone who replicates anyone else. I'd be inclined to mostly play him across half-forward as that ball user who hits up i50 targets and what the Pies hoped Broomhead would be, get him rotating through the midfield, pushing inept defenders deep and exploiting them if he has an advantageous matchup. He gives you options a plenty.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Looking at our list profile, I’d say that several things need to happen in the next 12-24 months assuming we don’t have the cap space to chase a gun key forward, and they’re dependant on each other:

1. Keane and Kelly both need to develop as AFL quality key defenders. Roughead and Moore are both great options, but Roughy is approaching 30 and Moore also remains our best key forward option. Murphy could also potentially cover a key defensive role if he’s reached 193cm or more. He’s actually my pick of the bunch because of his attack on the footy and his beautiful field kicking.

2. If two of those 3 can slot in to KPD roles then Moore can be moved forward. He can play Cox’s role but be better in every way and with Cox pushing 30 and not seeming to be improving anymore, it’s time to look at other options. Think a fit Joe Daniher and that’s what you’d get with Darcy forward now that he’s grown in to his body and is more experienced at the level.

3. One of Wilson or Tohill needs to develop in to an AFL standard forward. Wilson is the one I’m bullish on here. He showed some real glimpses last year with no preseason after several years out of the game. We know he’s got the work ethic too, because you don’t get selected as a Boomer if you’re a slacker.

4. If one of Wilson or Tohill can push in to the forward line it releases JDG to play more minutes in the middle. This will become more and more necessary in the future, with Pendles approaching his mid thirties and possibly being moved to a wing or less physical role in the future. Yes, we have Sier and Wills, but neither of them are currently even close to being in Jordy’s league in the middle.

There are several more things that need to go right including nailing draft picks and natural progression from our kids, but if we want to keep our window open for as long as possible then the changes/development of our spine are crucial imo, and all of it is very achievable.

Keane, Tohill, Wilson are speculative picks are best. Expecting them to to become AFL quality or AFL standard is setting your expectations way too high. They are rookie picks and athletes from another sport. Expectations should be very low.

I actually think we are carrying too many of these project type players. One or two is managable but four project players. Too much unnecessary risk and a consequence of a flawed draft and trade strategy for the past 5 years. By ignoring drafting key position players within the first three rounds leaves you scrambling to trying to fill the positions using rookie pick whereby the chance of becoming an regular AFL player is a longshot at best.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

But if Sier comes good, the soup will be too thick to add croutons.

That’s what we want.

Thick veggie soup.

Thick, not too smart, but healthy for us.

 

[Pragmatic Shill]

Keane, Tohill, Wilson are speculative picks are best. Expecting them to to become AFL quality or AFL standard is setting your expectations way too high. They are rookie picks and athletes from another sport. Expectations should be very low.

I actually think we are carrying too many of these project type players. One or two is managable but four project players. Too much unnecessary risk and a consequence of a flawed draft and trade strategy for the past 5 years. By ignoring drafting key position players within the first three rounds leaves you scrambling to trying to fill the positions using rookie pick whereby the chance of becoming an regular AFL player is a longshot at best.

If the rules of AFL footy allow for three Cat B spots on a list being paid outside the salary cap (with addition of Tohill being a Cat A due to Irish recruiting rules) I don't think we have too many project players at all. It's an issue if our long-term strategy for KPPs is for them to be project players, but otherwise every club is well within their rights to have them too.

 

[sr36]

Keays is an upgrade all-around on both.

Keays can mark 1v1, on the lead, aerially. He has all that on a high level for someone his size/type and he can hit the scoreboard in bunches. He's also capable at ground level and as a pressure player so you're not really losing anything in those regards. But it's just not the only reason he's good. He has the versatility to push deep and exploit defenders, but he can play across half-forward and hit up leading targets as well as probably anyone outside Pendlebury for Collingwood, through the midfield he can win it to a good level and cover plenty of ground. Has a really nice inside/outside balance as someone you can put in there at stoppages and have win it or play on the outside and add class and cover some ground.

So just with how diverse Keays' game is, he doesn't have to be someone who replicates anyone else. I'd be inclined to mostly play him across half-forward as that ball user who hits up i50 targets and what the Pies hoped Broomhead would be, get him rotating through the midfield, pushing inept defenders deep and exploiting them if he has an advantageous matchup. He gives you options a plenty.

Sounds great. I hope we pick him, but the way you describe him, I'd switch him to HB. From a best 22 perspective, weve got general forwards who offer a bit of everything coming out of our ears. We need blokes who specialise at getting to the feet of a big lump. Anything else they offer should be a bonus and not part of their core role. Although I think its system and structure more than personnel. Brown, Thomas and Varcoe would look a lot better if they played in the Tigers set up.

 

[Crazy Tails]

Were mad if we don't look at Walker Keays or Robinson all from brisbane

It’s funny as I came on here tonight to say there’s no way we should be looking at Robertson, Walker etc. Just don’t see any value in adding them to our list. Each to their own I suppose.


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[TradeDraft]

It’s funny as I came on here tonight to say there’s no way we should be looking at Robertson, Walker etc. Just don’t see any value in adding them to our list. Each to their own I suppose.


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Well we need KPP Depth so I get Walker but I don't know enough about Keays

 

[Crazy Tails]

Well we need KPP Depth so I get Walker but I don't know enough about Keays

That may be so Dave but I just don’t like Walker for us. Seems like a plodder, who has already been on two lists. It’s a pass from me.


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[Knightmare]

Sounds great. I hope we pick him, but the way you describe him, I'd switch him to HB. From a best 22 perspective, weve got general forwards who offer a bit of everything coming out of our ears. We need blokes who specialise at getting to the feet of a big lump. Anything else they offer should be a bonus and not part of their core role. Although I think its system and structure more than personnel. Brown, Thomas and Varcoe would look a lot better if they played in the Tigers set up.

I definitely like Keays more forward than back. I don't look at him as enough of a penetrator to be as effective in defence.

If wanting more drive up the field I'd be using Stephenson more up on a wing.

I agree with you that Collingwood need a specialist forward pressure guy to help generate more turnovers and allow for more scoring off turnovers.

For speed and forward pressure Collingwood can always look at Sam Lowson from Coburg as a late/rookie choice. He's the ideal fit for that role.

I don't see every single general forward added being a pressure forward. The more you have the better as so much scoring comes off the turnover, but with Collingwood's front half pretty quick as is, and Keays isn't slow, so I see room for both he and a Lowson in that front half to complete that group.

 

[Robroy22]

Walker is good not only 1v1/taking intercept marks/contested marks but he's also above average defending v leading forwards.

Reid at this age and stage I wouldn't play ahead of Walker as either a key defender or key forward even.

Reid is the key position player I'd allow to walk to give Walker the spot as a direct list replacement. Walker is younger and an upgrade from depth (Reid) to a genuine best 22 player who even if Moore stays back I'd be playing ahead of Roughead and Dunn.

I agree with letting Reidy walk....but not for Walker Knight. Walker is a good, honest, toiler. He'd be an excellent VFL player these days. But basing a defence on Walker and Roughy is asking for trouble. Rather draft a kid.

 

[Nuwanda]

I though C Brown has been improving each year. Next year should be the year he ‘breaks out’. If he doesn’t, well.......

I’m unconvinced about the 3 Lions being mentioned on here.

Walker ahead of Roughead? Well given the season Roughhead just had he is going to be difficult to replace. I can understand him being depth and replacing Dunn. But I’m not overly convinced and would prefer to give some game tome to Kelly.

Keays ahead of Thomas? Well Thomas does know where the goals are with half a sniff, and did kick 40 goals in 2018. I can say I’ve seen enough of Keays to say he is/isn’t. A better option. I just think he has struggled to play consistently in the 1s at Brisbane over the past 3 or 4 years.

But I’m no expert on young players. Happy to leave it to you.

 

[Knightmare]

I agree with letting Reidy walk....but not for Walker Knight. Walker is a good, honest, toiler. He'd be an excellent VFL player these days. But basing a defence on Walker and Roughy is asking for trouble. Rather draft a kid.

Walker as a key forward I felt was only good for depth in his Geelong days, but his play late 2018 and early 2019 for Brisbane I really liked in defence. During exclusively that period, it was for mine of a top 10 in the competition standard for his position. He was limiting his opponents output, beating them 1v1, stopping them on the lead and taking intercept marks and contested marks in defence on top of that.

Roughead was a lot better in defence than I thought he would be, and he's a servicable key defender, but as per my earlier post, I'd much rather play Walker alongside Moore. And from there it's only a question of whether Moore stays in defence or whether Walker/Roughead is good enough to allow Moore to play as a relieving ruck, where a boost would be useful.

This year's draft is relatively weak and shallow so I wouldn't be worried about getting too active.

Pies could easily just add Riccardi and Lowson as mature age key forward and small forward respectively and one more if they want to.

 

[Phil Inn]

But if Sier comes good, the soup will be too thick to add croutons.

If? If? Its a certain as this free throw...

*swish...bwoing, bounce bounce bounce...*

Guess we can make it best of 3?

 

[Robroy22]

Walker as a key forward I felt was only good for depth in his Geelong days, but his play late 2018 and early 2019 for Brisbane I really liked in defence. During exclusively that period, it was for mine of a top 10 in the competition standard for his position. He was limiting his opponents output, beating them 1v1, stopping them on the lead and taking intercept marks and contested marks in defence on top of that.

Roughead was a lot better in defence than I thought he would be, and he's a servicable key defender, but as per my earlier post, I'd much rather play Walker alongside Moore. And from there it's only a question of whether Moore stays in defence or whether Walker/Roughead is good enough to allow Moore to play as a relieving ruck, where a boost would be useful.

This year's draft is relatively weak and shallow so I wouldn't be worried about getting too active.

Pies could easily just add Riccardi and Lowson as mature age key forward and small forward respectively and one more if they want to.

That's where I had my dealings with him early on Knight and he's as tough a nut as they come. But he's just not smart and he's slow. The only intercepting he'd be doing is if a mid kicks it over the forwards head! To me he's a slightly taller and slightly slower version of Madgen.
So lets draft a forward and see how that goes.

 

[NeverWobble]

Robinson is the one I don't see room or a role for.

Walker and Keays I feel can be best 22.

Keays many won't be familiar with unless you've seen him either as a junior or in the NEAFL, but he's someone mid/fwd who goes very well. Wins his own ball, classy/composed ball user who hits his i50 targets, good mover and has the endurance base, production and scoreboard impact is there, very strong mark overhead. He has the attributes but hasn't received the opportunities. An ideal forward to have rolling through the midfield for decent periods.

Keays sounds like just the type we need IMO, especially if he can play significant midfield time Knightmare.
I’m currently wanting Crisp to move into our midfield and was hoping we’d let Wills go to get someone wth speed, skill and great foot skills to replace him to be honest. I feel Sier is the best big bodied mid depth option but we need a good ball user to deliver inside 50 as a complement especially if Pendles or Beams go down as our other mids are hit and miss in this regard.

 

[sr36]

I definitely like Keays more forward than back. I don't look at him as enough of a penetrator to be as effective in defence.

If wanting more drive up the field I'd be using Stephenson more up on a wing.

I agree with you that Collingwood need a specialist forward pressure guy to help generate more turnovers and allow for more scoring off turnovers.

For speed and forward pressure Collingwood can always look at Sam Lowson from Coburg as a late/rookie choice. He's the ideal fit for that role.

I don't see every single general forward added being a pressure forward. The more you have the better as so much scoring comes off the turnover, but with Collingwood's front half pretty quick as is, and Keays isn't slow, so I see room for both he and a Lowson in that front half to complete that group.

I just like that diamond set up we play up forward. JDG, Stephenson, Elliott and Mihocek rotating through 3 points of the diamond looking for isolation or to be hit up. A big lump as the fourth central point. The issue I have is that our half forwards - Brown and Thomas should be sweeping forward to get to the feet of the big lump, but they don't either because we stupidly want to isolate him, or because they don't read it well enough or because their defensive positioning doesn't low it. I'm not sure which. My best 22 wouldn't have WHE in it. Let alone space for another general forward.

 

[Robroy22]

Keays sounds like just the type we need IMO, especially if he can play significant midfield time Knightmare.
I’m currently wanting Crisp to move into our midfield and was hoping we’d let Wills go to get someone wth speed, skill and great foot skills to replace him to be honest. I feel Sier is the best big bodied mid depth option but we need a good ball user to deliver inside 50 as a complement especially if Pendles or Beams go down as our other mids are hit and miss in this regard.

yeah me too.

 

[NeverWobble]

I just like that diamond set up we play up forward. JDG, Stephenson, Elliott and Mihocek rotating through 3 points of the diamond looking for isolation or to be hit up. A big lump as the fourth central point. The issue I have is that our half forwards - Brown and Thomas should be sweeping forward to get to the feet of the big lump, but they don't either because we stupidly want to isolate him, or because they don't read it well enough or because their defensive positioning doesn't low it. I'm not sure which. My best 22 wouldn't have WHE in it. Let alone space for another general forward.

I think Thomas played a bit higher up the field this year SR and I never really got a handle on what Brown’s role was to be honest. Stevo out, Elliott coming back, Cox and De Goey out late and WHE unable to take a mark inside 50 hurt us and affected Thomas’ input as well. As you’ve mentioned before our system hurt us as well.
Praying for some continuity and a bit more attack next year which might suit a Keays type.

 

[Knightmare]

That's where I had my dealings with him early on Knight and he's as tough a nut as they come. But he's just not smart and he's slow. The only intercepting he'd be doing is if a mid kicks it over the forwards head! To me he's a slightly taller and slightly slower version of Madgen.
So lets draft a forward and see how that goes.

Walker I don't consider unathletic. I'll agree in so much as he's not agile or doing a great deal at ground level. And at 197cm, 100kg+ that's going to be the case for many unless you're talking about Buddy. He's a decent leaper and has the closing speed/straightline speed. So I'm not seeing that as problematic.

Comparisons to Madgen I consider harsh and unreasonable on Walker.

Just like Liam Jones who I was speaking about in recent year as a quality key defender, Walker is another who has made that transition and also is effective in defence.

Keays sounds like just the type we need IMO, especially if he can play significant midfield time Knightmare.
I’m currently wanting Crisp to move into our midfield and was hoping we’d let Wills go to get someone wth speed, skill and great foot skills to replace him to be honest. I feel Sier is the best big bodied mid depth option but we need a good ball user to deliver inside 50 as a complement especially if Pendles or Beams go down as our other mids are hit and miss in this regard.

Crisp I definitely feel needs to stay in defence. Without him there isn't enough drive.

Sier and Wills need to keep improving. Collingwood's midfield looks a lot better on paper than in reality. Pendlebury/Sidebottom/Beams have regressed drastically. Treloar is excellent other than being a poor kick. Adams is very good but has had injuries. Keays I'd have as a part of a rotation, but with time split between there and forward.

I just like that diamond set up we play up forward. JDG, Stephenson, Elliott and Mihocek rotating through 3 points of the diamond looking for isolation or to be hit up. A big lump as the fourth central point. The issue I have is that our half forwards - Brown and Thomas should be sweeping forward to get to the feet of the big lump, but they don't either because we stupidly want to isolate him, or because they don't read it well enough or because their defensive positioning doesn't low it. I'm not sure which. My best 22 wouldn't have WHE in it. Let alone space for another general forward.

If talking about Keays, that can still be pretty easily done. As per my earlier suggestion, play Keays mostly across half-forward, have him rolling high up the ground to let that continue.

WHE for me is on that edge of selection also. I don't love him either. Can mark, has speed, has the endurance and was hitting the scoreboard fine. He just doesn't find enough of it and can't win his own ball.

Sam Lowson would be that crumber/front and centre guy who can bring the forward pressure. He's worth selecting late. Otherwise a Jeff Garlett if you want someone who can roll high up the ground, bring the speed, pressure, crumbing can do that too.