Whats with all these unanswered goals every week? Please discuss

[royals1922]

While doing some numbers, I came across a stat that may interest the punting roos supporters.

In the 31 games played by the Roos this year and last year, Petrie has been the first goal scorer of the game on 8 occasions and scored within the first 15 minutes on another 3 or 4 occasions.

Also Harvey is next with 4 games in those 31.

If however you want value, Bastinacc has been the first goal scorer of a game in 2 of the 9 games played this year.

 

[Kcrack]

If however you want value, Bastinacc has been the first goal scorer of a game in 2 of the 9 games played this year.

I haven't watched the replay, but does anyone else think Basti's touched over the line scoring shot was actually a goal in the first quarter? From my view it wasn't touched until in was behind the post by a good 30 centimeters.

 

[True North]

By speed I mean, the ability to quickly get to the dangerous space whilst the opposition are on a fast break. I didn't mean chasing someone down.

Our mids can't cover territory quick enough to block vacant space upfield, when a team looks like getting out of our 50 in a hurry.

Endurance allows you to cover distance for an extended period of time.

Watch JZ run, he is too slow to get to open space in a hurry defensively. Cunnington, Patch and Swallow are in the same boat.

It's why Hawthorn are getting carved up at the moment. Their mids just are not quick enough to cover the open spaces when the ball is rebounding. Nobody can accuse Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Burgoyne of lacking endurance.

 

[Slattery_20]

Happened to us when we went the all-out offensive running & handballing too.
It just leaves no margin for error.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Happened to us when we went the all-out offensive running & handballing too.
It just leaves no margin for error.

What strategies and defensive structures have been implemented by the current coaching team to address this?

 

[Slattery_20]

What strategies and defensive structures have been implemented by the current coaching team to address this?

First and foremost - started kicking the ****ing thing more often than not. </cranky old guy in the stands>

Hold their lines (for the most part).
Picking more defenders, less rebounders
Having a decent array of forward targets (not a specific thing we ever decided not to do, more just guys improving)
Focussed our training - both skills & physical - on contested stuff rather than running patterns & the outside game.

ie a complete revamp of selections, training methods, "structures".

Supposedly we're one of the best kicking sides out there. I don't believe that for an instant. We're decent, but there's still a 3-4 guys you don't want kicking all that often, and no more than 3-4 really top-line kicks.

What we are doing better is putting ourself into better position to kick, getting it into the hands of guys who can kick, and making sure we've got something to kick to.

It's not *that* different a side to the one Knights was picking. But they're playing very different football.

 

[Slattery_20]

FWIW.
I heard Scotty Lucas discussing your mob on SEN recently. I think he's a really good analyst.
His major criticism was Scott showed all his cards vs Geelong - and hasn't shown the ability to adapt/change up tactics to suit.
Clubs pretty well know what you're going to do, and know how to line up to stifle you.
I always thought it pretty hard to adjust to different game-styles when you start with something that's pretty extreme towards one end (be that the 'run and gun', or Lyon's tackling, or whatever else).

Perhaps it's more of a learning tool and they'll head back towards a more "standard" style later on.
I certainly think Knights' tactics taught our guys how to run & score from any position (we were pretty flat under Kevin), but ultimately that wasn't enough.

 

[Event Horizon]

I think it's obvious that we have been adjusting our game week by week. The first half against Brisbane was about how we should be playing, if we could actually sustain it.

I don't think our problems are all that similar to Essendon under Knights. We are not getting smashed every second week for starters. We played Sydney and WC away, and have been in the game going into the last quarter in both games.

I think Lucas is right in that teams have adapted against us, but that's always going to happen. The problem though, in the games which didn't work out for us, we had too many players down on the day. If we can get a more consistent output from our midfield from game to game, knowing how we play won't help the opposition that much.

Ziebell, Cunnington and Basti have played 2-3 good games at the most. Swallow has played 9.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I don't think for a second that the way we are playing at the minute is the final plan, the ultimate goal for Scott and the team, and in that I think Lucas is wrong to state that we showed all our cards in the Geelong game. The reality is that the style of play is in evolution and has been for three years. The current methodology is attempting to teach out players to run forward in waves, which we have not been able to do in previous seasons. Our previous modus operandi has been to win clearance and boot forward. Neither style on their own will be successful long term but being proficient in all aspects of the game is what will ultimately proves successful. That said Scott has repeatedly said that he is not instructing the team to be handball happy. I see it as the instruction being that the players should use handball to release team mates into space so that they can kick more efficiently, and then get forward to become an option to the player who received the ball..

Teams like yours do not just make a leap forward without some solid basis for improvement. We are currently teaching our midfield group and half forwards/half backs the necessity in running hard both ways and in making good decisions with the ball with the lessons being learned in-game. It is also worth noting that as a whole it is these players who happen to be our most inexperienced and less developed. When it clicks we look great. When it doesn't we look terrible. What everyone needs to remember though is that this is just a point in time.

I guess the theory is that a point in time will come when our core group responsible for the forward thrusts and defensive accountabilities through the midfield will have sufficient miles in their legs, muscle on their bones and experience to make good decisions and execute these decisions on the field. Right now we are not there. The real test for this teaching strategy will be in 20-40 games time.

 

[Event Horizon]

The real test for this teaching strategy will be in 20-40 games time.

Whilst I agree with you in principle, the worry is that each year we are saying we are 12-24 months away from where we need to be. We've been saying for a while now. But this is Brad's third year, same as Hardwick, and Hird's second year, and given the overall quality of the lists, I do believe we needed to make the finals in 2012 to show we are improving and going in the right direction. Especially given our draw.

 

[Slattery_20]

I don't think for a second that the way we are playing at the minute is the final plan, the ultimate goal for Scott and the team, and in that I think Lucas is wrong to state that we showed all our cards in the Geelong game. The reality is that the style of play is in evolution and has been for three years.

I somewhat agree, but also think it's been a pretty marked departure this year rather than an evolution.
As I said, perhaps a learning tool - either that, or he's done a bit too much of that in training and gone a bit away from the kicking game. EDIT: Or, option C, chronic lack of confidence in footskills?

I think it's a hallmark of mature sides, compared to young sides, is that ability to change things up to suit.
North aren't that, yet. But they're not that young, either.

I'm honestly (far) less convinced this year, than I was 12 months ago, that they're on the right path. And, ostensibly, the personnel is either the same or improved.
Perhaps we're all over-thinking it and this is no more than a blip. Development is rarely (if ever) a linear progression.

That said Scott has repeatedly said that he is not instructing the team to be handball happy.

Whether he is, or not, it seems to have become the default option. If it needs to change, he needs to come up with a way to do it.

AFAIK North are still leading (or close to) the handball-to-kick ratio across the league.

 

[showusyacunningt]

But they're not that young, either.

Common misconception. We're the fourth most inexperienced side in the league. Melbourne is very close but I'll give them third, look at how they're fairing. We're not underachieving, we have an exceptional group of young kids and a young coach who have massively overachieved to this point. We will fly past Essendon once we're allowed 80, heck even 60, games together as a group.

 

[Z_K]

North aren't that, yet. But they're not that young, either.

Yes, they really are. North had 14 players sub 50 games on the weekend. Essendon had 8. Only GWS and the GC had more. North had 5 blokes had played more than 100 games. St Kilda had 14.

These are facts. What they mean or what they indicate is happening or is about to happen I have no idea, but get it right.

 

[Kimbo]

What everyone needs to remember though is that this is just a point in time.

Perspective? It'll never catch on.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Whilst I agree with you in principle, the worry is that each year we are saying we are 12-24 months away from where we need to be. We've been saying for a while now. But this is Brad's third year, same as Hardwick, and Hird's second year, and given the overall quality of the lists, I do believe we needed to make the finals in 2012 to show we are improving and going in the right direction. Especially given our draw.

Maybe it would have been better for Brad to have produced more crap in his first two years. Then, like Hardwick, he could exceed expectations instead of risking falling below them? There's not that much between us and Richmond except the surprise factor at the moment.

I'd guess that the internal discussions have been long term and the fact his plans to mould a challenger looked from the outside to have jumped ahead of schedule won't be as big a deal as it is to supporters and the media.

Anyway, as I said in the other thread, I'm quite enjoying the 'kicking goals and showing some flair' stage of development. If we can also avoid the hideous thrashings of the past few years, I'd count this year kind of successful.

 

[Long Live the King]

Its a good question, why cant we stop these opposition run ons?

Its a bit like learning to kick with your non-preferred foot or the defender spending time in the forward line and looking completely at sea.

Some players will be able to deal with the situation better than others, some will learn it and others will never get it.

Our experienced players (wells / boomer) probably will never be defensively minded. JZ / Cunners / Patch are probably still learning it.
Levi is probably one of the best mids defensively.

You tend to appreciate guys like Rawlings more when you consider both the offensive and defensive sides of players games.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I somewhat agree, but also think it's been a pretty marked departure this year rather than an evolution.
As I said, perhaps a learning tool - either that, or he's done a bit too much of that in training and gone a bit away from the kicking game. EDIT: Or, option C, chronic lack of confidence in footskills?

I think it's a hallmark of mature sides, compared to young sides, is that ability to change things up to suit. North aren't that, yet.

I don't think it too drastic a change. Last year we were criticized for bombing it onto Petries head all the time which we would do under pressure alot of the time.
The change is about generating scoring opportunities under the least amount of defensive pressure as possible. Moving it by hand initially within a wave of forward movement provides the last link in that chain with a clear opportunity to kick forward, either to a leading target or the goals, with little pressure. That's the theory I think anyway. We aren't there yet and may not be for some time but I see the logic in what they are trying to do.

But they're not that young, either.

More to the point it's the age bracket of the midfield.

Take out Harvey and the group is quite young and inexperienced.

Wells (27-170), Swallow (24-110), Goldstein, (23-60), Adams (24-52), Ziebell (21-51), Cunnington (20-39), Bastinac (20-39), Macmillan (20-20ish) with the likes of Harper and Atley (both 19) running through there in patches also. It's a predominantly young group and a group which is required to do most of the work. Considering Wellsy has been a bit off colour lately Swallow has been almost the sole consistent contributor.

I'm honestly (far) less convinced this year, than I was 12 months ago, that they're on the right path. And, ostensibly, the personnel is either the same or improved.
Perhaps we're all over-thinking it and this is no more than a blip. Development is rarely (if ever) a linear progression.

It'll only be a blip if they improve. If not then it will in all likelihood be a coach killer. Also, the form of a number of players has been very up and down. As mentioned Wells has been spotty, Adams poorer than last year and Goldy really down. They are all critically important to us.

Whether he is, or not, it seems to have become the default option. If it needs to change, he needs to come up with a way to do it.

AFAIK North are still leading (or close to) the handball-to-kick ratio across the league.

Less handball will come with better running patters. We get too handball focussed when players stop running and use hands to get out of trouble. This has also been the biggest cause of our turnovers and shoddy play.

 

[Slattery_20]

I don't think it too drastic a change.

Agree to disagree. I think it's been a definite decision.

Less handball will come with better running patters. We get too handball focussed when players stop running and use hands to get out of trouble. This has also been the biggest cause of our turnovers and shoddy play.

Funnily enough, all the sides who've done this have hit the same problem. It's easy to defend when there's the tendency to go short so often.

{Didn't realise quite how young. Thought you were just south of mid-table for age. I do thank you all for your focus on 6 words out of 250}

 

[ozzyoslo]

It's not out of stupidity or lack of balls, but by design.

In fact you could argue that not changing things around shows more balls than throwing 5 blokes behind the ball.

As I posted in another thread it's pretty obvious that the coach will not react with a defensive move when teams get a run on. He has set his stall around teaching the players the importance of making the most of their opportunities when they have they ball and that when you **** up you are going to put your team mates down the ground under pressure.

I guess the logic is that eventually they will improve in their efficiency as they become more experienced, fitter, stronger and smarter thus score more and concede less. Bit of a balls and all gamble but by Christ if we do improve our ball use we will become one hell of a dangerous team.

Eventually the coach will need to add a flexible defensive aspect to his coaching I reckon. It could one day mean the difference between winning and loosing a final.

It's risky and it will cause supporters pain at times and TBH I'm not quite sold on the philosophy he is using, but there is a method to the madness out there on game day.

This is my feeling right down to a TEE....great post BTron and good read

 

[Old Skool]

Yes, they really are. North had 14 players sub 50 games on the weekend. Essendon had 8. Only GWS and the GC had more. North had 5 blokes had played more than 100 games. St Kilda had 14.

These are facts. What they mean or what they indicate is happening or is about to happen I have no idea, but get it right.

Our primary problem is that a majority of our inexperience is condensed in the most important part of the field, the midfield.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Agree to disagree. I think it's been a definite decision.

It has certainly been a definite decision, but not a drastic change. Instead of the instruction being to boot it forward when the clearance is won the players have obviously been instructed to try use hands to clear congestion. The result can look quite different, but the instruction isn't that drastic a change.

 

[Mav]

Our primary problem is that a majority of our inexperience is condensed in the most important part of the field, the midfield.

Sure it's not in defense?

Compare games played of Cam, Luke, Atley, Thomo, Grima, Jmac and Spud to Goldy, Swallow, Jack, Basta, Levi, Boomer and Adams.

I've left out Wells as he seems to playing both Mid and HBF/kick behind the play.

 

[r_boy]

Agree to disagree. I think it's been a definite decision.

We haven't played it the last two games...

 

[royals1922]

Given that NM have played GC and GWS, the comparisons are interesting.

NM have scored 3 or more goals in a row in games this year 13 times with 5 of those occasions scoring 4 or more goals in a row.

NM have had 3 or more goals kicked in a row against them 11 times with 4 of those occasions resulting in the opposition side getting 4 or more goals in a row.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

[Souup]

7 and counting