What's wrong with the AFL ?

[Demonic Ascent]

Mate I am not calling you stupid at all but seriously the VFL is dead, it is a national comp and yearly the flag will not be won by a Vic club. They win there fair share and so they should just as sides from outside of Victoria do.
So how did the Hawks win 3 in a row against all these odds? Or Geelong do so well?
There is no guarantee GWS will win even one flag let alone multiple. You are holding on to an era that is long gone.
I agree with you the AFL is corrupt and many things you say but these are not the reasons every Victorian club is not sharing in premierships. The AFL is pro Victorian clubs, if it wasn't then a few of them would be gone by now.
Sometimes I sit there and wish the WAFL was king in my state, but it's not and we have anational comp now. New clubs must have concessions to start, yes some are to much but it is what it is.
If GWS or GoldCoast win the next 5 flags between them then I will come back and agree with you.
But it won't happen

There's no guarantee the Giants will win one or multiple flags - but they AFL has stacked the deck in their favour to try and ensure that outcome. Just as they have with the Swans, they want to ensure success (premierships and constant finals appearances) to bed down the support base in the frontier states.

 

[Bokonon_]

We will disagree on the status of Eagles start up entry squad.
Ha ha had a moment just then of looking up the first game I went to against Eagles.
Brings back good memories of the Dominator 7 goals in this game.
See a young Silvagni too in his teenage years.


They did have a good standard competition to recruit from. It is why despite not having anything like a state side in 1987, they managed to build a list over 5 years to play in their first grand final in 1991.
All those youngsters still developing like Chris Lewis and Worsfold that were teenagers when Eagles started up and the ones to come into their list in coming seasons would develop into a quality team and premiership contenders. They had good concessions as they should have to build their team up over 3 or 4 seasons of mostly the best teenagers coming up through West Australia in mid to late 80's. The kicker was it just happened to be good timing there was a really good batch coming through at right time of Sumich, Worsfold, Matera, Kemp, Pyke, Langdon, McKenna, Lewis, Evans and Heady.

Will make a good comparison in years to come with Giants teenagers in their first few years of Cameron, Shiel, Greene, Smith, Patton, Coniglio, Haynes, Tomlinson, Whitfield and Kelly.
A Steve Johnson suspension was probably the only thing stopping Giants equalling Eagles of reaching a grand final in their 5th season.

It does bring back memories. People talk about the Hawks 2015 win as their best, I think it was 1986 against a very good Carlton side that had beaten them in the finals series. I get the Hawks were minor premiers.
1987 was a great win by Carlton.
I concede your point after taken to task by you and greatwhiteshark, that's the point of forums to me and I expect to be challenged. I was responding to a claim that people would turn off footy becuase we would dominate. I found that laughable and my point was really that WC were much more intimidating than us on entry. I get they didn't immediately dominate, but thats not the point.
You can see in the loyalty that supporters of clubs like Richmond and more recently Carlton that isn't going to happen. Clubs will lose members to a more or less degree in down times but they will return with on field success.
Also that Essendon have grown members during the saga, and that the Hawks did when things got ugly and a merger was on the table.

 

[BRWB]

It does bring back memories. People talk about the Hawks 2015 win as their best, I think it was 1986 against a very good Carlton side that had beaten them in the finals series. I get the Hawks were minor premiers.
1987 was a great win by Carlton.
I concede your point after taken to task by you and greatwhiteshark, that's the point of forums to me and I expect to be challenged. I was responding to a claim that people would turn off footy becuase we would dominate. I found that laughable and my point was really that WC were much more intimidating than us on entry. I get they didn't immediately dominate, but thats not the point.
You can see in the loyalty that supporters of clubs like Richmond and more recently Carlton that isn't going to happen. Clubs will lose members to a more or less degree in down times but they will return with on field success.
Also that Essendon have grown members during the saga, and that the Hawks did when things got ugly and a merger was on the table.

In 2016, AFL crowds on average at their lowest since 1996 according to the below article. So not that laughable a suggestion that fans may or are dropping off old mate.

https://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-2016-membership-up-but-crowds-down-20160825-gr1b52.html

And this:

Victorian crowds rounds 1-16
Year Average

2008 43,148

2009 41,273

2010 42,164

2011 43,902

2012 40,777

2013 42,218

2014 36,948

2015 39,038

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...lfing-the-afls-heartland-20150722-giie75.html

 

[greatwhiteshark]

In 2016, AFL crowds on average at their lowest since 1996 according to the below article. So not that laughable a suggestion that fans may or are dropping off old mate.

https://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-2016-membership-up-but-crowds-down-20160825-gr1b52.html

And this:

Victorian crowds rounds 1-16
Year Average

2008 43,148

2009 41,273

2010 42,164

2011 43,902

2012 40,777

2013 42,218

2014 36,948

2015 39,038

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...lfing-the-afls-heartland-20150722-giie75.html

Fans drop off and on regularly in all sports.
The article by Connolly is again an article he thinks he is writing about the AFL but he is really just a Victorian writing about Victorian football. Just another one who has not come to grips with the sport going national.

In WA we have the same thing, of the 50k people who followed the WAFL weekly in 1986 I reckon only 10% of them attend AFL games today. Many reasons such as age, don't like the AFL, don't like the rule changes etc etc. but either way they are not attending. They have been replaced however by new supporters who attend the AFL games in large numbers.

Victorian football is still very strong and the nations biggest base, you want premierships shared more but that is not going to happen, history says it won't happen. Even the old VFL the same clubs kept winning it.

 

[basashi]

Your post is fair enough opinion but this statement isn't right. It wouldn't becuase it's not a company but it would on turnover. Never happen I hope because it's fundamentally not a for profit business.

Mate it's not a big business. Revenues are around $500m p.a. For comparison's sake the CEO of Myer gets about $1.2M to manage a company that does $3B odd. Gil's salary is almost equivalent to a bank CEO and those guys are presiding over $10B in revenue and far more complex business structures. It's an absolute joke.

The biggest clubs have a turnover and headcount similar to a single Coles or Woolies supermaket. Those businesses are running about 800 supermarkets each.

Mind you, the individual supermarkets don't get the hype!

 

[BRWB]

...Victorian football is still very strong and the nations biggest base, you want premierships shared more but that is not going to happen, history says it won't happen. Even the old VFL the same clubs kept winning it.

Agree to disagree - IMO there is clear trend of lower attendances particularly in Vic and this supports the view that fans are becoming disenfranchised with AFL due to corruption in the AFL whereby the system is set up for certain clubs to win.

Your last point is intriguing and that attitude is exactly why fans are dropping off.

You asked previously how I'd do things differently maybe facetiously I don't know. One way to almost ensure every club gets a suck of the premiership lollipop is have a draft based on time since a premiership. The draft gives the longest suffering fans continual hope while removing tanking. Regardless of performance, Freo fans know they get will get pick one until they get a flag. And then GCS after them.

So draft order last year:

1 - Freo
2 - GCS
3 - GWS
4 - Dees etc
18 - Dogs

Assume GWS win the flag this year

1 - Freo
2 - GCS
3 - Dees
4 - Saints etc
18 - GWS

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Agree to disagree - IMO there is clear trend of lower attendances particularly in Vic and this supports the view that fans are becoming disenfranchised with AFL due to corruption in the AFL whereby the system is set up for certain clubs to win.

Your last point is intriguing and that attitude is exactly why fans are dropping off.

You asked previously how I'd do things differently maybe facetiously I don't know. One way to almost ensure every club gets a suck of the premiership lollipop is have a draft based on time since a premiership. The draft gives the longest suffering fans continual hope while removing tanking. Regardless of performance, Freo fans know they get will get pick one until they get a flag. And then GCS after them.

So draft order last year:

1 - Freo
2 - GCS
3 - GWS
4 - Dees etc
18 - Dogs

Assume GWS win the flag this year

1 - Freo
2 - GCS
3 - Dees
4 - Saints etc
18 - GWS

Has some merit but only if the deal is you cannot trade your top pick. I am still a believer it is up to the clubs to make themselves strong, not up to equalisation measures by the league. But that is hard when certain clubs get better TV deals, ground deals etc.
In reality the whole thing is a mess but we must all understand our clubs have agreed to it all.
If 12 clubs got together and said we will not agree to something and said we will not play until it is sorted how they want it then the AFL would not have a leg to stand on. But that does not happen, the clubs agree with everything the AFL does, christ some clubs sign ground deals which they know is a terrible deal for their club and then complain about the deal they signed for the next 5 years.

People power in football starts with the clubs, if they don't stand up then there is nothing that can be done.

 

[BRWB]

Has some merit but only if the deal is you cannot trade your top pick. I am still a believer it is up to the clubs to make themselves strong, not up to equalisation measures by the league. But that is hard when certain clubs get better TV deals, ground deals etc.
In reality the whole thing is a mess but we must all understand our clubs have agreed to it all.
If 12 clubs got together and said we will not agree to something and said we will not play until it is sorted how they want it then the AFL would not have a leg to stand on. But that does not happen, the clubs agree with everything the AFL does, christ some clubs sign ground deals which they know is a terrible deal for their club and then complain about the deal they signed for the next 5 years.

People power in football starts with the clubs, if they don't stand up then there is nothing that can be done.

Some clubs do what they have to survive.

How many home games to Cairns or Alice Springs has WC sold?

How many s**t stadium deals has WC been forced into?

My guess is that the AFL is budgeting for some losses in Vic and hoping the gains in QLD and NSW outweigh them.

Interesting how it all pans out.

Imagine if GWS had of played the Swans and won last years GF. I bet the drop off this year would be even more marked.

Ironically, the team the AFL never really planned for, other than making up the numbers, has given some hope to all fans that miracles happen.

Pretty rare though.

 

[footyfan1978]

It does bring back memories. People talk about the Hawks 2015 win as their best, I think it was 1986 against a very good Carlton side that had beaten them in the finals series. I get the Hawks were minor premiers.
1987 was a great win by Carlton.

You probably are right about the Hawks win in 86. First grand final I went to, not fond memories. Everything went wrong, we did nothing right and from memory my favourite player, Johnston was on crutches in second half after he hurt he knee earlier in game. Hawks just jumped us out of the blocks and we never got going. Great win by them after we ran over them late in 2nd Second Semi-Final 2 weeks earlier.
Some of the bad stuff here in a report on some of our day going wrong:
Blueseum site has more.

"Bradley injured his right hand in the first quarter and if this worried him the Blues should have taken him off the ground. After all, Carlton had had the chance to examine the injury during the half-time break. Bradley went off the ground during the third quarter and when he did return he was not the effective player he usually is and the Blues missed his drive. Bernie Evans was unable to get into the play, Carlton had few players who could push forward. Hunter seemed to have come into the game unfit as was Blackwell, who both missed the second-semi with injuries. To take two injured players into a Grand Final is inexcusiable. The Blues engine with Bradley injured early, Blackwell not fit, Johnston jarring his knee and Rhys-Jones being well held was ineffective. The ball just didnt enter the Carlton forward line enough times and when it did it was not as clinical as it should have been and was rushed out by the Hawk defenders."

87 we got our revenge but you still never get back the ones to you lose.
Probably my worst day at footy.

I concede your point after taken to task by you and greatwhiteshark, that's the point of forums to me and I expect to be challenged. I was responding to a claim that people would turn off footy becuase we would dominate.

If some people claiming that, just superficial analysis from them.
Some people may not like some of teams that win premierships but those of us that love the game are not going to give up a game on such silly ideas.

 

[BRWB]

If some people claiming that, just superficial analysis from them.
Some people may not like some of teams that win premierships but those of us that love the game are not going to give up a game on such silly ideas.

With all due respect just because people don't 'love the game' in the same you do doesn't make it silly.

In Australia, we are brought up on egalitarian values - a fair go. When a generation of fans have seen their clubs' chances of success reduced because of the AFL's desire to make money - you might be surprised at the levels of disengagement. The AFL know they have a problem - it's why they bang on about fan engagement.

A lot of folks are tired of supporting clubs that have little chance of ultimate victory. That may not be a footy purist view but I find it understandable.

I'll give you an example. Many Fitzroy fans simply switched off from AFL when they were destroyed. The passion was gone.

We are coming up to 30 almost continuous years of the AFL slanting the playing field in favour of certain clubs.

For some fans - the predicted GWS success may be the final straw. As someone said to me recently, "Why waste my time and energy supporting a club that the AFL wants to lose?"

I don't find it silly at all. In fact I've spoken to a number of footy fans who are starting to disengage. Crowd figures in Vic support it.

 

[NoobPie]

With all due respect just because people don't 'love the game' in the same you do doesn't make it silly.

In Australia, we are brought up on egalitarian values - a fair go. When a generation of fans have seen their clubs' chances of success reduced because of the AFL's desire to make money - you might be surprised at the levels of disengagement. The AFL know they have a problem - it's why they bang on about fan engagement.

A lot of folks are tired of supporting clubs that have little chance of ultimate victory. That may not be a footy purist view but I find it understandable.

I'll give you an example. Many Fitzroy fans simply switched off from AFL when they were destroyed. The passion was gone.

We are coming up to 30 almost continuous years of the AFL slanting the playing field in favour of certain clubs.

For some fans - the predicted GWS success may be the final straw. As someone said to me recently, "Why waste my time and energy supporting a club that the AFL wants to lose?"

I don't find it silly at all. In fact I've spoken to a number of footy fans who are starting to disengage. Crowd figures in Vic support it.

Well, I certainly wouldn't equate having your club destroyed with it being made marginally harder to win a premiership

I think there is always attrition of support with people losing interest for whatever reasons. I also think that some people, addicted to a whine, won't be going anyway if the Giants snag a couple of flags.

The bulldogs winning the flag was massive and the style they did it in was breath taking...but their premiership made it 9 of the last 10 have stayed in Victoria! Seriously, people need to have some perspective. Does the lighter travel from having 10 legacy victorian clubs and a home grand final help? Some people certainly think so.

There are 18 clubs now which makes it harder for your club to win a premiership in a given year.

If the Giants win a premiership or two it will be primarily because they have run their club well and developed a great list and culture. Their initial endowment may have been set too high - people said the same thing about the Eagles. The riverina is controversial but the actual academy systems are well designed with father and son style draft rules ensuring they need to pay a (discounted) price to get the academy players.

 

[Dr Whoooooooo]

For some fans - the predicted GWS success may be the final straw. As someone said to me recently, "Why waste my time and energy supporting a club that the AFL wants to lose?"

Well you wont have long to wait ... the final straw is drawing closer

fact I've spoken to a number of footy fans who are starting to disengage. Crowd figures in Vic support it.

Membership numbers dont support your argument ... maybe some people just prefer or are being "trained" to watch the game on the TV.

 

[BRWB]

Well you wont have long to wait ... the final straw is drawing closer



Membership numbers dont support your argument ... maybe some people just prefer or are being "trained" to watch the game on the TV.

Well there's memberships and memberships. It would be interesting to see tv ratings yr on yr though.

 

[Kwality]

We will disagree on the status of Eagles start up entry squad.
Ha ha had a moment just then of looking up the first game I went to against Eagles.
Brings back good memories of the Dominator 7 goals in this game.
See a young Silvagni too in his teenage years.


They did have a good standard competition to recruit from. It is why despite not having anything like a state side in 1987, they managed to build a list over 5 years to play in their first grand final in 1991.
All those youngsters still developing like Chris Lewis and Worsfold that were teenagers when Eagles started up and the ones to come into their list in coming seasons would develop into a quality team and premiership contenders. They had good concessions as they should have to build their team up over 3 or 4 seasons of mostly the best teenagers coming up through West Australia in mid to late 80's. The kicker was it just happened to be good timing there was a really good batch coming through at right time of Sumich, Worsfold, Matera, Kemp, Pyke, Langdon, McKenna, Lewis, Evans and Heady.

Will make a good comparison in years to come with Giants teenagers in their first few years of Cameron, Shiel, Greene, Smith, Patton, Coniglio, Haynes, Tomlinson, Whitfield and Kelly.
A Steve Johnson suspension was probably the only thing stopping Giants equalling Eagles of reaching a grand final in their 5th season.

The rules under which the Eagles kicked off : list of 35, all other clubs 53, meant it had to be sorted out at some time with the 18 players having to be added at some time & when it did the Eagles were able to recruit the nucleus of the 1985 U18 side.
For example John Worsfold played a full season for South Fremantle in the WAFL in 1986 before being drafted by the Eagles in its original squad.

I always smile when draft concessions are discussed - at the end of 1986 the VFL had 600 + players locked away, and the concessions came after that - yes, the Bears had players sent to them by the VFL clubs. Each club still had 40+ players locked away.

 

[Kwality]

Some clubs do what they have to survive.

How many home games to Cairns or Alice Springs has WC sold?

How many s**t stadium deals has WC been forced into?

My guess is that the AFL is budgeting for some losses in Vic and hoping the gains in QLD and NSW outweigh them.

Interesting how it all pans out.

Imagine if GWS had of played the Swans and won last years GF. I bet the drop off this year would be even more marked.

Ironically, the team the AFL never really planned for, other than making up the numbers, has given some hope to all fans that miracles happen.

Pretty rare though.

You forgot to mention that WA footy has no pokies income, the WAFC have owned both the clubs & the controlled the stadium, sell out (the Eagles) its seating allocation to seasons members thus the clubs charge (& fans pay) premium prices - put simply its a winner for WA footy - Vic is stuck with last century style arrangements, it sent Souths to Sydney in the 80s acknowledging the market couldn't handle 12 clubs, but 30 years on there are still 10 clubs that even pokies revenue cant sustain, and there is no equivalent of the WAFC to advocate for Vic footy.
The AFL cant advocate for the game nationally & Victoria - there is a conflict that is regularly denied. Now it competes with the MCC directly in the stadium market.

 

[Dr Whoooooooo]

You forgot to mention that WA footy has no pokies income

In the not tooooo distant future Victorian teams wont have pokies money either ....

The game changer is a comin .....

 

[Bokonon_]

You probably are right about the Hawks win in 86. First grand final I went to, not fond memories. Everything went wrong, we did nothing right and from memory my favourite player, Johnston was on crutches in second half after he hurt he knee earlier in game. Hawks just jumped us out of the blocks and we never got going. Great win by them after we ran over them late in 2nd Second Semi-Final 2 weeks earlier.
Some of the bad stuff here in a report on some of our day going wrong:
Blueseum site has more.

"Bradley injured his right hand in the first quarter and if this worried him the Blues should have taken him off the ground. After all, Carlton had had the chance to examine the injury during the half-time break. Bradley went off the ground during the third quarter and when he did return he was not the effective player he usually is and the Blues missed his drive. Bernie Evans was unable to get into the play, Carlton had few players who could push forward. Hunter seemed to have come into the game unfit as was Blackwell, who both missed the second-semi with injuries. To take two injured players into a Grand Final is inexcusiable. The Blues engine with Bradley injured early, Blackwell not fit, Johnston jarring his knee and Rhys-Jones being well held was ineffective. The ball just didnt enter the Carlton forward line enough times and when it did it was not as clinical as it should have been and was rushed out by the Hawk defenders."

87 we got our revenge but you still never get back the ones to you lose.
Probably my worst day at footy.



If some people claiming that, just superficial analysis from them.
Some people may not like some of teams that win premierships but those of us that love the game are not going to give up a game on such silly ideas.

I envy you. Until the Giants came along I was always Geographically challenged and going to AFL/VFL games difficult. More SANFL games but even then not usually located nearby.

 

[Kwality]

In the not tooooo distant future Victorian teams wont have pokies money either ....

The game changer is a comin .....

Where will the money come from to replace the pokies ? Put up seating prices?

 

[NoobPie]

Where will the money come from to replace the pokies ? Put up seating prices?

pokie's revenue in Victoria is disproportionately with the bigger clubs...

https://hurlingpeoplenow.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/how-much-money-does-your-club-make/

Hawthorn and the "big three" have about $60 million in gaming revenues...I've hear a figure of 25% previously for "profit" which equates to $15

The remaining 6 Victorian clubs share $30 million (~$7.5 m estimated profit), NM has none

The game is far less dependent on them than the RL is in Sydney and would have a moderate impact overall on AFL net revenue if clubs ceased to own them

...I personally think the AFL / clubs should get out of the pokies...not sure though that is likely to happen in the short to mid term

 

[Rotayjay]

I don't care that these academy kids would supposedly never had played footy if the academies didn't exist. It's a national league with a national draft. Every side should have equal access to top draft talent if they've had a crap year or traded for an early pick. (And no, GWS should never have been given a huge list so they could trade away off-cuts for early pick after early pick). None of this 'discounted' rubbish especially prepared for GWS and Sydney so the AFL can better penetrate the NSW market.

 

[Dr Whoooooooo]

pokie's revenue in Victoria is disproportionately with the bigger clubs...

https://hurlingpeoplenow.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/how-much-money-does-your-club-make/

Hawthorn and the "big three" have about $60 million in gaming revenues...I've hear a figure of 25% previously for "profit" which equates to $15

The remaining 6 Victorian clubs share $30 million (~$7.5 m estimated profit), NM has none

The game is far less dependent on them than the RL is in Sydney and would have a moderate impact overall on AFL net revenue if clubs ceased to own them

...I personally think the AFL / clubs should get out of the pokies...not sure though that is likely to happen in the short to mid term

Awesome little article ... they will be getting out of them.

 

[GreyCrow]

Barry Hall GF 2005 was when I realised the farce. And the rest of the comp acting dumb was even worse. Accomplices.
AFL handling of the claytons tanking was another reminder.
AFL more recently interfering with investigations, prematurely slapping governance penalties on a club, cements their anti-legacy.
Gimme some truth, someone sang.
Gimme some transparency.

Dunkley even earlier

I think the post #9 by andrewb is closest to my thoughts. The idea that the brand is better with things hidden away rather than exposed is counter-productive

 

[andrewb]

Agree to disagree - IMO there is clear trend of lower attendances particularly in Vic and this supports the view that fans are becoming disenfranchised with AFL due to corruption in the AFL whereby the system is set up for certain clubs to win.

Your last point is intriguing and that attitude is exactly why fans are dropping off.

You asked previously how I'd do things differently maybe facetiously I don't know. One way to almost ensure every club gets a suck of the premiership lollipop is have a draft based on time since a premiership. The draft gives the longest suffering fans continual hope while removing tanking. Regardless of performance, Freo fans know they get will get pick one until they get a flag. And then GCS after them.

So draft order last year:

1 - Freo
2 - GCS
3 - GWS
4 - Dees etc
18 - Dogs

Assume GWS win the flag this year

1 - Freo
2 - GCS
3 - Dees
4 - Saints etc
18 - GWS

Then you'd get tanking in reverse. Teams would know that they can access talent UNTIL they win a flag. So they would basically hold out from winning a flag until they'd stockpiled enough talent and future picks to make sure they have a few cracks at it.

 

[Supercoach Bargain]

In 2016, AFL crowds on average at their lowest since 1996 according to the below article. So not that laughable a suggestion that fans may or are dropping off old mate.

https://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-2016-membership-up-but-crowds-down-20160825-gr1b52.html

And this:

Victorian crowds rounds 1-16
Year Average

2008 43,148

2009 41,273

2010 42,164

2011 43,902

2012 40,777

2013 42,218

2014 36,948

2015 39,038

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...lfing-the-afls-heartland-20150722-giie75.html

That's with GWS and GC added, not being big drawers and in recent times Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood and Richmond not being in the hunt.

Lets not tear our blouses just yet.

 

[Freshwater]

What I don't like the most about the AFL is the games are on too late now. It was worse about 3 years ago and the AFL wound it back it little but not enough in my opinion. In WA you may say they are on too early and I can't comment because I haven't lived with that. But some more early arvo games would be much better occasionally especially for me with young kids. I know it's for the TV but some balance would be better.