Analysis Who is the AFL GOAT - AFL Era?

[My Tilly]

In Lockett's era you had a guy like 190cm ish Mick Martyn as his opponent, often playing genuine 1on1 defence. Transplant Buddy to that era and he's got a lot of size over Martyn. He'd have loved playing 1on1 football his whole career too.

The modern zone defensive setups have totally changed how forwards play and it's rare that genuine 1 on 1 contests happen, let alone spending a whole game that way.

Lockett was incredible in his time but it's folly to pretend he'd have similar dominance in the current era, let alone kick even more goals.

Carey is one who would translate very well, still a good size for a KPP with a great tank and a game that already involved working up and down the ground. Richardson probably would fare better in modern AFL than he did in his time.

It's a bit like Polly Farmer being regarded as one of the all-time great ruckmen of the game, yet at 191cm he wouldn't get anywhere near a ruck contest in the modern game.

You can't just assume Franklin remains 199cm if he was born in 1968-1974.
He'd have been a good inch shorter and much more stout in body shape.

Likewise Martyn and all those guys listed at 190cm -192cm. They would be taller people today.

Having said that, Franklin would still be one of the tallest forwards but his marking would be highly suspect and that is what bridges the gap and prevents him from being that all conquering forward.
No way he even reaches 250 games. Probably still kicks 1000 goals but not much more than that.

 

[owen87]

You can't just assume Franklin remains 199cm if he was born in 1968-1974.
He'd have been a good inch shorter and much more stout in body shape.

Likewise Martyn and all those guys listed at 190cm -192cm. They would be taller people today.

Having said that, Franklin would still be one of the tallest forwards but his marking would be highly suspect and that is what bridges the gap and prevents him from being that all conquering forward.
No way he even reaches 250 games. Probably still kicks 1000 goals but not much more than that.

It's not an assumption, Franklin is actually the height he is and Martyn (and Lockett) are actually the height they are.

Arguing Lockett would come in and kick 150 goals a year in modern football is a bad argument. Trying to pretend past players from a semi-professional era could simply be dropped in and dominate the modern game is a bad argument.

Modern players are taller, stronger, faster, fitter and largely more technically skilled than past players, because their entire life is that of a fully professional athlete.

Franklin stands further above his contemporaries than Lockett does his; Lockett 1360 whist Dunstall playing in the same era kicked 1254, with Ablett on 1031.

Franklin has kicked 1051 with the next closest being Jack Reiwoldt on 768. He's head and shoulders above any other forward this era, whilst Lockett is only 0.1 goal / game better than Dunstall.

 

[Mr Meow]

In Lockett's era you had a guy like 190cm ish Mick Martyn as his opponent, often playing genuine 1on1 defence. Transplant Buddy to that era and he's got a lot of size over Martyn. He'd have loved playing 1on1 football his whole career too.

The modern zone defensive setups have totally changed how forwards play and it's rare that genuine 1 on 1 contests happen, let alone spending a whole game that way.

Lockett was incredible in his time but it's folly to pretend he'd have similar dominance in the current era, let alone kick even more goals.

Carey is one who would translate very well, still a good size for a KPP with a great tank and a game that already involved working up and down the ground. Richardson probably would fare better in modern AFL than he did in his time.

It's a bit like Polly Farmer being regarded as one of the all-time great ruckmen of the game, yet at 191cm he wouldn't get anywhere near a ruck contest in the modern game.

Not sure I completely buy this. An unfit mid 30s Hawkins does serious damage and gets 1v1s. A lot of KPD's in today's comp would seriously struggle to contain Lockett. I'm not saying he'd kick more goals than he did then, as the top key forwards simply kicked more goals then for the reasons stated, but I could still see him eating a Steven May alive.

Carey would dominate in the same fashion Cameron is currently doing. A little less roaming up the ground, but then adding the contested marking superiority.

I think it kind of misses the point though when comparing greatness. It should probably just reflect relative to their times, i.e their generation and their peers (e.g other key forwards, and the dominance over the defenders/forwards they played on). In these terms I still believe Carey could put his team on his back and drag them over the line in more games, especially big games. He had the extra weapon, the huge contested/pack marking. Buddy a bit more mobile but Carey was still freakish in this area, more than you'd ever expect by looking at him. It's fair to say they were both top, top tier for close to a decade. Buddy's insane goal tally somewhat being cancelled out by Carey being the league MVP a couple of times and having 4 B&Fs compared to Franklin's 1.

Some heroic, team lifting goals in this and that ignores his amazing contested marking for the most part.



The gold standard as a centre half forward, the position might as well be named after him.

 

[owen87]

Not sure I completely buy this. An unfit mid 30s Hawkins does serious damage and gets 1v1s. A lot of KPD's in today's comp would seriously struggle to contain Lockett. I'm not saying he'd kick more goals than he did then, as the top key forwards simply kicked more goals then for the reasons stated, but I could still see him eating a Steven May alive.

Carey would dominate in the same fashion Cameron is currently doing. A little less roaming up the ground, but then adding the contested marking superiority.

I think it kind of misses the point though when comparing greatness. It should probably just reflect relative to their times, i.e their generation and their peers (e.g other key forwards, and the dominance over the defenders/forwards they played on). In these terms I still believe Carey could put his team on his back and drag them over the line in more games, especially big games. He had the extra weapon, the huge contested/pack marking. Buddy a bit more mobile but Carey was still freakish in this area, more than you'd ever expect by looking at him. It's fair to say they were both top, top tier for close to a decade. Buddy's insane goal tally somewhat being cancelled out by Carey being the league MVP a couple of times and having 4 B&Fs compared to Franklin's 1.

Some heroic, team lifting goals in this and that ignores his amazing contested marking for the most part.

Hawkins is ~198cm so he is bigger than Lockett, and is probably the forward who plays a most traditional FF role in the game today.

The bolded I thoroughly agree on, it's not really about whether Lockett could dominate in 2023, it's how he compared to his contemporaries, much as it's about how Franklin compares to his contemporaries not whether an ultra-mobile 6'6" would have dominated playing in the 80s against players 2-3 inches shorter and less mobile than him.

FWIW Franklin's goal average is further ahead of his contemporaries than Lockett's is his.

 

[My Tilly]

Arguing Lockett would come in and kick 150 goals a year in modern football is a bad argument.

I never argued Lockett would kick 150 goals. Where did you get this from?

I said Carey is a superior footballer to Franklin.

Trying to pretend past players from a semi-professional era could simply be dropped in and dominate the modern game is a bad argument.

You are contradicting yourself because you say past players would not be fit enough to dominate today's game but on the other hand, are you suggesting today's players would have been completely immune to semi-professionalism had they played in the 90's?

 

[owen87]

I never argued Lockett would kick 150 goals. Where did you get this from?

I never said you did, the original post I replied to said it, you replied to my reply...

I said Carey is a superior footballer to Franklin.

Yes and no. I'd say Franklin is the better player if you want to score more goals. Carey's other attributes makes him an important structural player and an effective conduit to goal. You'd simply play Franklin at FF and Carey at CHF and be happy though.

You are contradicting yourself because you say past players would not be fit enough to dominate today's game but on the otherhand, are you suggesting today's players would have been completely immune to semi-professionalism had they played in the 90's?

Except that's not what I said.

 

[My Tilly]

Yes and no. I'd say Franklin is the better player if you want to score more goals.

Why would Franklin score more goals if he spent many matches in the ruck?

Except that's not what I said.

Quote:

Trying to pretend past players from a semi-professional era could simply be dropped in and dominate the modern game is a bad argument.

Modern players are taller, stronger, faster, fitter and largely more technically skilled than past players, because their entire life is that of a fully professional athlete.

I don't understand how you can presume Franklin just seemingly drops down in 1995 and is exactly the same person as what we see today.
I think he would be a little shorter, wouldn't know about the benefits of modern day sports science and would have had to play semi professional footy just like every other Australian did.

 

[Mr Meow]

Hawkins is ~198cm so he is bigger than Lockett, and is probably the forward who plays a most traditional FF role in the game today.

The bolded I thoroughly agree on, it's not really about whether Lockett could dominate in 2023, it's how he compared to his contemporaries, much as it's about how Franklin compares to his contemporaries not whether an ultra-mobile 6'6" would have dominated playing in the 80s against players 2-3 inches shorter and less mobile than him.

FWIW Franklin's goal average is further ahead of his contemporaries than Lockett's is his.

To be honest I think most would take Franklin because again they would look at his athletic advantage and more diverse/freakish skill set. But sticking to the "within his era" outlook, winning a Brownlow as a full forward was damn impressive. 4 Coleman's like Franklin, 15 club leading goal kicker vs 13. 2 B&Fs compared to 1. League MVP once vs zero. Franklin with 3 more AA guernseys.

It does get tricky to compare to peers because I think Lockett's era is widely recognised as having a better/deeper collection of top, top forwards - or at least ones contending for top 20 ever. As for defenders it's hard to say - the top end were outstanding but the drop off was probably greater to the rest and team defences these days don't expose their full backs as much.

But if we are going who was more valuable in their era as a standout it would probably have to go to Franklin.

My personal opinion is I'd pick Carey in a match to save my life before Franklin, both were/are forces of nature but Carey was relentless in tight games and finals.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

We are talking about their careers, not a hypothetical if Franklin played in the 90's. For starters, he wouldn't like off the ball treatment. He'd be constantly harassed. Could he take it?
Many talented players left the game due to the physicality.
He would also be playing ruck and forward like Paul Salmon did.

Carey's career was better than Franklin's (to date).
Even look at their finals record side by side. Carey's statistical averages never dipped like they do with Franklin.

And Carey at 194cm would be just as brilliant today as he was back in the day. Similar player to Jeremy Cameron but better in the air.

Ahh yes, this mythical physicality, again is completely overstated. Firstly, Franklin isn't soft. He's as tough as they come. And secondly, to be physical with the guy you've got to be able to catch him first. Mick Martyn, Danny Frawley, Scott Turner and so on trying to chase Franklin down would have been the funniest s**t you've ever seen. With the open forward lines of the pre-flood era those blokes would have needed binoculars to see which way Franklin went.

I am not knocking Carey but if Franklin kicks 1000 goals these days where a Coleman medalist regularly wins with about 60% of the goals needed to win it in Carey's era, how many does Franklin kick in the era of open 50 meter arcs? His numbers would be scary.

That said, I agree Carey is a star in any era.

 

[owen87]

Why would Franklin score more goals if he spent many matches in the ruck?


Quote:



I don't understand how you can presume Franklin just seemingly drops down in 1995 and is exactly the same person as what we see today.
I think he would be a little shorter, wouldn't know about the benefits of modern day sports science and would have had to play semi professional footy just like every other Australian did.

Your posting is getting increasingly disjointed here, lots of jumping all over the shop trying to make an argument with something you've made up.

 

[Mr Meow]

Why would Franklin score more goals if he spent many matches in the ruck?


Quote:



I don't understand how you can presume Franklin just seemingly drops down in 1995 and is exactly the same person as what we see today.
I think he would be a little shorter, would not know about all the benefits of modern day sports science and would have had to play semi professional footy just like very other Australian.

Similar to how we wouldn't know exactly how Lockett would turn out born a generation later and in that environment. He may not have Franklin athleticism or height but it's unfair to assume he'd be cumbersome and outreached. Very, very different players but both unstoppable in their era. Franklin is the modern prototype so it's almost impossible to not just think "well he'd run rings around defenders from former eras". Which is technically true but for me is a little bit of an unfair way to approach GOAT type discussions.

 

[My Tilly]

Your posting is getting increasingly disjointed here, lots of jumping all over the shop trying to make an argument with something you've made up.

It is you who is disjointed.
You only allow one version of a hypothetical and not the other to suit your argument.

Ahh yes, this mythical physicality, again is completely overstated. Firstly, Franklin isn't soft. He's as tough as they come. And secondly, to be physical with the guy you've got to be able to catch him first. Mick Martyn, Danny Frawley, Scott Turner and so on trying to chase Franklin down would have been the funniest s**t you've ever seen. With the open forward lines of the pre-flood era those blokes would have needed binoculars to see which way Franklin went.

Blokes would manhandle another player off the ball and Franklin would cop his fair share of it all the time.
Of course he's a big man but he would have had to take far more hits in a bash and crash league than what he has endured so far.
Playing as a ruckman, he also would have copped his fair share of injuries along the journey.

 

[owen87]

You only allow one version of a hypothetical and not the other to suit your argument.

Not at all, you're just trying to pick and choose which bits of which scenarios you want to use, trying to create a made up argument.

 

[Philth]

So it appears the Dusty thread about him potentially being GOAT has legs like you wouldn't believe.

However, one of the things I noticed is that every player that gets brought up in the GOAT conversation is always Ablett Jnr & Snr, Judd, Fyfe (who personally I have no idea how he is included but that could just be me being in Victoria), and Dusty. They are all midfielders, yeah mids get the medals and all that malarkey but I want to put forth other options. Screw mids

• Scarlett - Arguably the greatest backman of the AFL era.
• Rance - Is the other side of the greatest backman argument.
• Franklin - Possibly the last ever player to reach 1000 goals in their career. Also the last player to kick 100 goals in a season. Should be well and truly in the conversation for GOAT. He has kicked all those goals in an era of the Paul Roos Flood and the Clarko Web defences.
• Lockett - Greatest Goal Kicker
• Dunstall - Second greatest goal kicker
• Mcleod - Fantastic dashing Half Back Flanker and a 2 time Norm Smith medalist

These are the ones of the top of my head who should be added to the list. I would also say the criteria should be that they played at least 10 AFL Games over their career (a player could of played 150 VFL/WAFL/SANFL/QAFL games and then 20 AFL games when the league switched over and be in contention. Basically it is a requirement to try and keep it to proper AFL era)

Good thread, cheers.

I agree with most others in saying that GAJ is the GOAT.

If it wasn't for him though, any of the guys on your list, and others mentioned could well be named the greatest, ie a non mid.

Buy Gaz Jr was too exceptional, can't go past him IMO.

 

[My Tilly]

It's a bit like Polly Farmer being regarded as one of the all-time great ruckmen of the game, yet at 191cm he wouldn't get anywhere near a ruck contest in the modern game.

Adam Goodes was brilliant whenever he went into the ruck so not sure how you can make that assumption.
In fact, Polly's game looked to have been similar to Goodes the way he roamed around the ground as another midfielder who happened to also be a brilliant ruck.

And again, hate to keep harping on about it, human beings grow taller every passing generation so I highly doubt an already tall indivdual would remain the same height 50 years later.

 

[PhatBoy]

If he had the sort of heart Martin or any number of so called "role playing spuds" getting around in every side had then he'd have several flags by now and genuinely be in the constant threads we see on here asking "Who is the GOAT." Instead he's not even the best player of his generation.

He had to make up for hiding during the 2020 GF and the fact it took that failure to get him to pull his finger out and play to his ability is precisely what my criticism of him is based on. And you'll see, if you want to search my comments is the few times I've mentioned him I've said the same thing for years. When you look back on his career you'll see he could have done so much better.

You know who should be in these conversations from the Cats but isn't - Selwood (despite the Duckwood stuff.) Maybe not better than GAJ in terms of talent but he was a great leader and a damn fine player especially with his back to the wall. He left nothing in the tank for his entire career, unlike Dangerfield, and that's why Dangerfield was lucky to jag a flag at the end of his career while Selwood deservedly earned four across his.

He's three times the player Danger is for that reason alone.

Probably not in the GOAT conversation but he obviously is one of the greatest leaders in the VFL/AFL history and right up there for the greatest captains of the AFL era.

BTW - If North people didn't have the heart for it we wouldn't have a club right now. You might be able to say that about some of our recent players but you're wrong to say it about our supporters and members.

This is some of the dumbest s**t I’ve ever read on this forum.

Dangerfield’s kicking is simply not precise enough for him to be in a conversation like this but anyone with a single IQ point can see he busts himself every time he sets foot on the ground

 

[owen87]

Adam Goodes was brilliant whenever he went into the ruck so not sure how you can make that assumption.
In fact, Polly's game looked to have been similar to Goodes the way he roamed around the ground as another midfielder who happened to also be a brilliant ruck.

And again, hate to keep harping on about it, human beings grow taller every passing generation so I highly doubt an already tall indivdual would remain the same height 50 years later.

Sure. But Polly Farmer didn't play AFL in the current era, so we don't actually know how he would go. All we know is how he compared to his contemporaries.

The poster who tried to argue Lockett would kick 150 goals a season in the modern game made a silly argument. I responded as such. Somehow you felt compelled to argue against that and now are at the point of trying to mash together disparate posts and comments I've made in to a made up argument you can argue against...

 

[PhatBoy]

How can Buddy be GOAT when Fev was better on the lead & kicking at goal?? GOAT doesn’t have peers who are better than them at parts of their job.
GAZ Jr takes it easily it was insane how good he was & for how long

that’s like saying a batsman who scores less runs has to be better than the other guy because he’s got a better cover drive

 

[jc12]

Dusty


Rest fight for 2nd

 

[PhatBoy]

In Lockett's era you had a guy like 190cm ish Mick Martyn as his opponent, often playing genuine 1on1 defence. Transplant Buddy to that era and he's got a lot of size over Martyn. He'd have loved playing 1on1 football his whole career too.

The modern zone defensive setups have totally changed how forwards play and it's rare that genuine 1 on 1 contests happen, let alone spending a whole game that way.

Lockett was incredible in his time but it's folly to pretend he'd have similar dominance in the current era, let alone kick even more goals.

Carey is one who would translate very well, still a good size for a KPP with a great tank and a game that already involved working up and down the ground. Richardson probably would fare better in modern AFL than he did in his time.

It's a bit like Polly Farmer being regarded as one of the all-time great ruckmen of the game, yet at 191cm he wouldn't get anywhere near a ruck contest in the modern game.

The transplant argument does not work.

Time travel is not possible so why does it get mentioned? The only hypothetical worth entertaining is:

‘Would Franklin have been as big? Probably not.
Would he have been as fast? Probably faster than normal but still not as fast as he is in the modern era.
Would he have grown up playing the same style as everyone else? Yes.’

That’s it. That’s all that matters.

It’s useless saying ‘Jesse Owens’ times can’t beat a mediocre modern sprinter so he must have been hopeless.’ Because if Jesse Owens was born 90 years later he’d have had different training methods, conditions, track surfaces, shoes, nutrition, weights etc etc.

 

[JackOutback]

Please, Plugger was an absolute jet, but fwd lines way more congested now and a different game. Plus he’d be suspended most of the time in this era.

Buddy has kicked 1000+ and other key fwds in his time haven’t looked like getting close.

Transfer him to the 90’s and play him 1 v 1 on Mick Martyn, Craig Kelly, Matthew Croft, Scott Turner etc (defenders of that period) and he’d destroy them.

He’d too big, fast, athletic & skilful for the space they gave fwds then to shut him down.

The question is not if you plucked Plugger from the '90s and plugged him unchanged into today's game, how would he go, or vice versa for Buddy. If Lockett was playing now, he'd adapt and so would Buddy. The game constantly changes. We don't judge past players on modern tactics, otherwise we'd be saying Buddy is a million times better than John Coleman because he's far bigger and more mobile than amateurs playing in the '50s.

 

[JackOutback]

Hawkins is ~198cm so he is bigger than Lockett, and is probably the forward who plays a most traditional FF role in the game today.

The bolded I thoroughly agree on, it's not really about whether Lockett could dominate in 2023, it's how he compared to his contemporaries, much as it's about how Franklin compares to his contemporaries not whether an ultra-mobile 6'6" would have dominated playing in the 80s against players 2-3 inches shorter and less mobile than him.

FWIW Franklin's goal average is further ahead of his contemporaries than Lockett's is his.

Not sure I agree with the argument here when Ablett and Dunstall are widely considered two of the all-time great full forwards. Is it Lockett's fault his contemporaries were better than Buddy's contemporaries?

 

[Partridge]

Not sure I agree with the argument here when Ablett and Dunstall are widely considered two of the all-time great full forwards. Is it Lockett's fault his contemporaries were better than Buddy's contemporaries?

Exactly.

Lockett is the best full forward I've ever seen. Dominated then, and he'd dominate now. Far, far better player than Franklin ever was, and a much more skilled player than people seem to think.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Blokes would manhandle another player off the ball and Franklin would cop his fair share of it all the time.
Of course he's a big man but he would have had to take far more hits in a bash and crash league than what he has endured so far.
Playing as a ruckman, he also would have copped his fair share of injuries along the journey.

Yeah, I concede those points.

But I doubt it stops him putting up some crazy numbers.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Exactly.

Lockett is the best full forward I've ever seen. Dominated then, and he'd dominate now. Far, far better player than Franklin ever was, and a much more skilled player than people seem to think.

This is the sort of stuff that is just plain incorrect and lacks perspective. It's one thing to say you think Lockett is/was a better player. That's an absolutely valid point of view.

But to say he is a "far, far better player thank Franklin ever was" is just a laughable comment. Lockett was a great player in an era where a number of FF's were putting up similar numbers. Franklin's best years in this era were comfortably better than the next key forward. At his best, in the 21st century nobody gets anywhere near him. Lockett's best was only marginally better (if at all) than the likes of Dunstall, Ablett and briefly Modra.

What you are effectively saying by extrapolation is that forwards these days are nowhere near as good as forwards in the 80' and 90's. And I am here to tell you that Franklin, Cameron and both Riewoldts would have been every bit as prolific as those before them, under a similar set of circumstances.