Opinion Why are the interstate teams so bad? How do we fix them?

[Goosecat]

Mate, I see football as a game, it wouldn't worry me if non-Vics won the next 10 and vise verse, I really don't care.

If some of you want to take football as serious as it sounds you do, that's up to you, but I and many others will keep calling you sooks, and by the looks of it, the AFL do also.

Nah, the sooks are the fearful Vics . Please don't change anything;sook, please don't take away our advantages;sook, please don't take way our MCG grand final; sook, please don't make us play every second game away from our homes, our beds and our families and on and on it goes. Every-ones a sook.

 

[tonygeeks]

Mate, I see football as a game, it wouldn't worry me if non-Vics won the next 10 and vise verse, I really don't care.

If some of you want to take football as serious as it sounds you do, that's up to you, but I and many others will keep calling you sooks, and by the looks of it, the AFL do also.

Haha I don’t care if VIC teams win MOST of the flags either but anyone with any sense of fair play in them can see it’s edging closer to ALL the flags

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Mate, I see football as a game, it wouldn't worry me if non-Vics won the next 10 and vise verse, I really don't care.

If some of you want to take football as serious as it sounds you do, that's up to you, but I and many others will keep calling you sooks, and by the looks of it, the AFL do also.

Lol, thats kinda easy to say when Vic teams win year after year, the fact that you are so nonchalant about it is actually quite revealing.

 

[go_the_dockers]

You really think the AFL haven't been investigating ways for interstate clubs to keep and attract players?

The whole Vic investigation thing back in 2007 was a beat up, there are constant investigations going on into why teams aren't going well, the Vic one got more media due to some parochial types making some noise.

And the outcome was to give the Vic's the nga system.

I think the afl with Vic clubs dominating.

 

[Rankine2Rachele]

Adelaide had their golden chance in 2017 and blew it because of a half time meltdown between Tex Walker and Jake Lever.
Nothing to do with so called Vic Bias or Advantage.

We definitely shot ourselves in the foot massively with that one. It was ours for the taking, and we completely butchered it.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Haha I don’t care if VIC teams win MOST of the flags either but anyone with any sense of fair play in them can see it’s edging closer to ALL the flags

Realistically considering the split of Vic V non Vic clubs and their basic advantages of less travel and a home GF it should be 2:1, I'd take 3:1 or even 4:1 but in reality its 8:1 since the inquiry and should be cause for concern if it is to be a true National comp where every supporter can believe they have a chance of glory.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Lol, thats kinda easy to say when Vic teams win year after year, the fact that you are so nonchalant about it is actually quite revealing.

Very easy to say mate, I just said it, and if you want to sook about that also, I don't care about that as well.

Sooks will sook about anything, if I could be bothered , I could probably find many threads on here you have had a sook about something.

An observation just recently is, Port have had the a fairly good team, they were IMO good enough to win the big dance, but for some reason they s**t the bed on their home ground, that is not the Vics fault, they gave themselves every chance and blew it.

Now if you think I am picking on Port, think again, the club I follow have done the same thing many times, it's not just non- Vics who do it.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

I disagree that non Victorian teams are so much worse than Victorian. The 14 of 16 premierships stat is a bit misleading IMO, especially considering 3 clubs have won 11 of those.

PF/GFs made 2007-2022

1. Geelong - 12
2. Collingwood - 8
3. Hawthorn - 6
4. Sydney - 5
5. Western Bulldogs - 5
6. Richmond - 4
7. Port Adelaide - 4
8. West Coast - 3
9. St Kilda - 3
10. GWS - 3
11. North Melbourne - 3
12. Melbourne - 2
13. Adelaide - 2
14. Fremantle - 2
15. Brisbane - 2
16. Carlton - 0
17. Essendon - 0
18. Gold Coast - 0

This “ladder” shows Geelong and Collingwood are head and shoulders above the rest, but outside of that there’s a very even distribution of non Vic and Vic teams throughout it. There are so many sliding doors moments over the past 16 years that would have altered the premiership tally:

2020 - Richmond beat Port by a goal in the prelim, Port had beaten Geelong two weeks prior, arguably would have won the GF.
2016 - Bulldogs beat GWS by a goal in the prelim, would have been an all non-Vic GF.
2014 - Hawthorn beat Port by a goal in the prelim, would have been an all non-Vic GF.
2013 - Hawthorn beat Geelong by a goal in the prelim, Freo had beaten Geelong two weeks prior, arguably would have won the GF.

I don’t think what we’re seeing is that non Victorian sides are significantly worse than Victorian sides over this period. They have been poor on GF day (2-8), but they’re not “so bad” as the thread title suggests.

Not when the only recognised measure of success is flags, no one covers the Minor Premier in glory unless they go on to win the GF.
Collingwood made the 02 and 03 GF's, they still held an inquiry only 3 years later.

 

[Free Agent]

So what has changed between those years and the last 15? Why in the last 15 years only two have won

Actually GC and GWS haven't made it any better for interstate sides either. There whole club is made from mostly Vic draftees as there no talent in those two rugby states. Basically those two clubs are now a hunting academy for mostly Vic clubs because of it.

Might get the one player every now and then ask to leave to another interstate side like Rankine leave to Adelaide

But on average 4-5 or more players leave those rabbles each season for trades back to mostly Vic sides and very cheaply might I add. There inclusion into the comp is now topping up Vic sides more so that they are a few years in. Players want to leave after 2-3 seasons and usually go to a Vic club.
You could say GC and GWS are just a development ground for Vic sides. Soon as players start to come into there prime they go and make Vic sides better.
I don't see any interstate side winning a premiership for the next 10 years with what's going on now. Swans are our only chance now because they have the huge academy behind them to build a quality list.

 

[blue harvest]

Nah, the sooks are the fearful Vics . Please don't change anything;sook, please don't take away our advantages;sook, please don't take way our MCG grand final; sook, please don't make us play every second game away from our homes, our beds and our families and on and on it goes. Every-ones a sook.

The Vic sides spent large periods away from home and travelling during the 2 Covid years, and made up all 4 GF participants those years!

 

[Goosecat]

The Vic sides spent large periods away from home and travelling during the 2 Covid years, and made up all 4 GF participants those years!

Not even comparable. Closer to home and families, eventually took families with them and only for a short period. I do admit I actually admire the result though and disagree with others about that reality. I thought it was a really great achievement. The truth is though, as the players themselves acknowledge,
The teams are made up of players who've had better preparation/recovery, family support and home beds for years the interstate teams simply can't have. It makes all the difference in the world and the players acknowledge it themselves. It only takes a couple of percentage points, mentally or physically or both at the highest levels to be the difference and the players themselves continually raise this area as the single biggest aspect. It's an acknowledged advantage no one has an answer for.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

How many flags have they won?
How many finals series has GC played in?

They are manufactured teams with weak supporter bases in rugby States that shouldn’t even be in the competition. Despite that the giants have played in a grand final.

 

[Soggy2112]

Not when the only recognised measure of success is flags, no one covers the Minor Premier in glory unless they go on to win the GF.
Collingwood made the 02 and 03 GF's, they still held an inquiry only 3 years later.

Yes but my point is that because we place so much emphasis on the result of one game we have a distorted view on how “even” the league is.

Geelong were not an 81 point better side than Sydney. They’re a better team but not by that margin.

It’s warranted to ask the question of why do non Victorian teams keep shitting the bed so badly in the GF (Sydney 2014 and 22, GWS in 2019, us in 2017, Port in 2007, West Coast in 2015), but I don’t think we have a league where the Victorian sides are significantly better than the non-Victorian sides.

I think there is a lot more luck involved in winning a premiership than people like to admit.

Richmond are a great example. They’re obviously a fantastic side and deserve all the success they got, but they won 3 flags from 4 prelims they made. However, they beat Port by 6 points in 2020, and you can argue that had Collingwood scraped through against GWS they would have put up a much better contest, as GWS were, with hindsight, clearly out of steam come GF day. Clearly they played sensationally in both those finals series and deserve to be premiers, but luck also plays a significant part.

Same as the Dogs in 16, they scrape through to the GF and were the beneficiary of some dubious umpiring against the Swans. Once again, they played fantastic football and deserve to be premiers, but we’d be foolish to pretend there is not a significant element of luck involved.

What I’m saying is that if you look at other metrics than just GF wins, it is not as lopsided, which to me suggests it’s fairly even between the two groups. Although clearly non-Vic sides need to look at how they prepare for GFs, as clearly they’re struggling.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Not even comparable. Closer to home and families, eventually took families with them and only for a short period. I do admit I actually admire the result though and disagree with others about that reality. I thought it was a really great achievement. The truth is though, as the players themselves acknowledge,
The teams are made up of players who've had better preparation/recovery, family support and home beds for years the interstate teams simply can't have. It makes all the difference in the world and the players acknowledge it themselves. It only takes a couple of percentage points, mentally or physically or both at the highest levels to be the difference and the players themselves continually raise this area as the single biggest aspect. It's an acknowledged advantage no one has an answer for.

If anything it actually highlights how much better Vic clubs have it to go 2 from 2 in GF's away from home compared to our 2 from 9 attempts in the past 16yrs at the G.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Same as the Dogs in 16, they scrape through to the GF and were the beneficiary of some dubious umpiring against the Swans. Once again, they played fantastic football and deserve to be premiers, but we’d be foolish to pretend there is not a significant element of luck involved.

And this highlights another part of the problem, even when a non Vic side goes in as favourite they get handed a dubious lopsided umpiring display that even leaves the most dyed in the wool Vic embarrassed.
Being better doesn't equate to succeeding on GF day if there is a better narrative.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Nah, the sooks are the fearful Vics . Please don't change anything;sook, please don't take away our advantages;sook, please don't take way our MCG grand final; sook, please don't make us play every second game away from our homes, our beds and our families and on and on it goes. Every-ones a sook.

That's nonsense, as a Carlton supporter I tend to usually barrack for an non Vic club in an Grand Final against the Vic Club (aka 2017, 18, 19 and Yesterday's GF)

I honestly do not believe there is a fear or an agenda against non Victorian Clubs here in the Victorian Football Community like you and a few other non Vic club posters here are saying

I would like to mention that a significant part of the Crows and Port Adelaide problems/issues over the 20 years has been the SANFL and frankly their pathetic stadium deal for games at Adelaide Oval, where both SA AFL clubs get very little revenue from the gate.

As a partial result of this, Port did build up some heavy debt and as a result (or maybe in spite of) they have kept an chronically underachieving coach (least in finals) like Ken Hinkley for so long.

It's legally almost impossible to imagine thr AFL being able to step in and stop the SANFL sucking both the Crows and Port Adelaide dry, giving I believe they have a majority holding stake in both clubs

 

[Elmer_Judd]

If anything it actually highlights how much better Vic clubs have it to go 2 from 2 in GF's away from home compared to our 2 from 9 attempts in the past 16yrs at the G.

Yes but Brisbane had a golden chance to play in a Golden Final in 2020 and they crapped the bed.

They are also getting the best kid in the draft this season despite finishing 4th, and a couple of other 10 top ten draft rated Academy kids over the next few years.

The Lions are having better run of the luck than any Vic (or non Vic) club over the next couple of drafts.

At some point Brisbane and other non Victorian clubs need to take some own personal responsibility and ownership for their lack of Premiership success recently, instead of blaming 'The big Mean Victorians'

 

[LoungeLizard]

Nah, the sooks are the fearful Vics . Please don't change anything;sook, please don't take away our advantages;sook, please don't take way our MCG grand final; sook, please don't make us play every second game away from our homes, our beds and our families and on and on it goes. Every-ones a sook.

Sorry I missed this post.

Could you show me the threads made by Vics to sook about all this stuff, most thread I remember are all made by non-Vics.

And for your info, I am all for moving the GF and most people I talk to are the same.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

It's legally almost impossible to imagine thr AFL being able to step in and stop the SANFL sucking both the Crows and Port Adelaide dry, giving I believe they have a majority holding stake in both clubs

Actually, the AFL leant both Port and Adelaide a combined $18m to buy back their licenses from the SANFL in 2014, problem is it came with the caveat that the AFL then had the power to insert 7 of 9 members to the clubs board in Adelaide's case and when you control the board you control the club.
This can be found in Michael Warners book 'The Boys Club'.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Yes but Brisbane had a golden chance to play in a Golden Final in 2020 and they crapped the bed.

They are also getting the best kid in the draft this season despite finishing 4th, and a couple of other 10 top ten draft rated Academy kids over the next few years.

The Lions are having better run of the luck than any Vic (or non Vic) club over the next couple of drafts.

At some point Brisbane and other non Victorian clubs need to take some own personal responsibility and ownership for their lack of Premiership success recently, instead of blaming 'The big Mean Victorians'

But if they dont retain them once they become of age then its just a case of rinse and repeat the same old story of being good enough but not good enough.

At some point in time the narrative of X non Vic club shitting the bed wears thin and you have to consider that there is more to that continual trend.
And if it you refuse to acknowledge that there isnt more to it than simply shitting the bed then when will the AFL address it in the same manner they did for Vic clubs when between 01 and 06 they 's**t the bed'.

 

[PrisonBars4life]

I actually think what you’re saying is fair enough but good luck getting the AFLPA to agree to that. However we are the only club to pay for two high profile free agent superstars by trading instead of overpaying them and we still won a flag. The oldest team ever on a field today suggests the rest of you should be following our model in forgetting about the draft and bringing in players based on need.

We’ve had two top 10 picks in 16 years - Selwood and Cockatoo and the latter is a talentless hack who couldn’t remain loyal after years of being on the injury list. I don’t rate anyone as a human being if they would turn on you for money. Especially the figures you’re talking about.

You still benefit from being able to do what we can't. Firstly, there seems to always be some 23-year-old gun hiding in Geelong that noone knows about and you get for free. 2nd, the only way the trading works is if you keep on doing it. Geelong will eventually pay for it, but by then you won't care. There aren't enough good SA players to trade away the future to get. Third, even a decade or so after the f/s rules were made fairer you still benefit from when they weren't fair. Matthew Scarlett, Abblett Jr, and Hawkins for token 2nd/3rd round picks has set your club up. 2007/22 happen anyway, but 2009 and maybe even 2011 would have been different without them or if fair value was paid. The point is you were able to build up a core of players cheaply which enabled you to blow your wad every year and top up and there will always be someone on the market that will make your team a better one.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Actually, the AFL leant both Port and Adelaide a combined $18m to buy back their licenses from the SANFL in 2014, problem is it came with the caveat that the AFL then had the power to insert 7 of 9 members to the clubs board in Adelaide's case and when you control the board you control the club.
This can be found in Michael Warners book 'The Boys Club'.

Okay, I should really buy/read that book

Under those circumstances, can certainly Understand why both Crows and Port fans feel aggrieved/angry at the AFL

I firmly believe club members (of every club) should have a say into the make up and elections of their club boards.

Don't like the AFL putting their own 'people' on the boards of clubs, unless it's for expansion clubs like The Suns or Giants (and even then, only for somewhat short-medium term tenure)

 

[PrisonBars4life]

Yes but Brisbane had a golden chance to play in a Golden Final in 2020 and they crapped the bed.

They are also getting the best kid in the draft this season despite finishing 4th, and a couple of other 10 top ten draft rated Academy kids over the next few years.

The Lions are having better run of the luck than any Vic (or non Vic) club over the next couple of drafts.

At some point Brisbane and other non Victorian clubs need to take some own personal responsibility and ownership for their lack of Premiership success recently, instead of blaming 'The big Mean Victorians'

These are things that haven't happened yet and it might happen too late with some aging players on Brisbane's list. I am not sure they have had more luck than any Vic club either. There was an investigation when it was deemed the non Vic's were winning too many flags. The result was a bunch of changes over the next few years and few non vic flags since.

 

[Freshwater]

Yes but Brisbane had a golden chance to play in a Golden Final in 2020 and they crapped the bed.

They are also getting the best kid in the draft this season despite finishing 4th, and a couple of other 10 top ten draft rated Academy kids over the next few years.

The Lions are having better run of the luck than any Vic (or non Vic) club over the next couple of drafts.

At some point Brisbane and other non Victorian clubs need to take some own personal responsibility and ownership for their lack of Premiership success recently, instead of blaming 'The big Mean Victorians'

Brisbane’s lack of premiership success!! Short memory.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

These are things that haven't happened yet and it might happen too late with some aging players on Brisbane's list. I am not sure they have had more luck than any Vic club either. There was an investigation when it was deemed the non Vic's were winning too many flags. The result was a bunch of changes over the next few years and few non vic flags since.

There may have been an investigation into non Vic clubs winning flags, but I don't think anything or much came out of it to rectify the situation.

West Coast's Premiership window from that period was shut firmly because of Ben Cousins and its rampant unsavoury substance abuse culture at the time, nothing to do with Victoria.

What I will say is Brisbane were severely shafted being forced to play their home preliminary final in 2004 at the G against Geelong, probably cost them a legit chance of a four-peat next week against Port.

Short of giving the highest ranked Grand Final team hosting rights at their home ground/state every year (something I personally am in favour of myself, but due to politics and other factors involved will unlikely happen on our lifetime) I am not sure what the AFL really can do to try make more non Victorian clubs win flags in the short-medium term.

Unfortunately Free Agency and Trading for Out of Contract stars/players does seem to heavily favour Victorian clubs I admit.

Would like to see some changes/modifications to the F/A system myself, but unfortunately the AFLPA has far to much influence to allow it to happen..

I am not convinced at all that the Players Association have the best interests of clubs at heart (especially non Victorian clubs)