Why do people call Steve Bracks a socialist?

[Alvin Teal]

Works relative to cost of living and cost of alternatives such as parking your car in the city. Sydney's is amazingly expensive, and you can't even use one ticket for various modes of transport.

Adelaide's is incredibly cheap. Cost me $2.30 to get from the airport to the other side of town last time I visited a mate.

Adelaide's system is first rate. It costs me $25 a week to travel to work on train and bus. The rail service on the Noarlunga line is unreal, express trains every few minutes in peak taking 25 mins to get to my stop 23 kms out.
It does have a big failing though, no heavy rail corridor in the eastern suburbs and the Hills line has been drastically cut back at a time when the Hills is booming as a resdiential / cummuter belt.

 

[Monkster]

You think?
I've used the rail a bit in Brisbane and found the train service to be excellent.

Thats just fine, if theres a train station where you want to go. As for Buses, they're great, if they turn up on time, or at all, oh and also if you don't mind catching 2 or 3 buses just to get 15 minutes down the road.

 

[Contra Mundum]

I could call Steve Bracks any one of a hundred names

Good old ' Thievin' Steven ' is about as close to a socialist as I've ever seen in Australian politics, in my lifetime.
He operates very much on that ' Robin Hood ' principle of ' steal from the rich to give to the poor ' his obsession with speed cameras is morbid - I noted on an Xmas visit they're now fixed to every single bridge on the Princes Highway!!
As well as that a lot of his policies are very socialist.

Yeh socialist - in need of therapy Board

 

[dan warna]

<shrug> i'm no fan of socialism, but if people vote for a socialist leader in the future, then its the way democracy works and it should be respected.

I can really see a socialist getting up in the near future.

you really need a big underclass of citizens with the vote to get a socialist government up.

some mediteranean nations and south and central american nations have the necessary demographic for socialist governments.

I think if a government really did create a poverty class of substantial volume, then there is your voting base for a socialist government.

 

[Contra Mundum]

<shrug> i'm no fan of socialism, but if people vote for a socialist leader in the future, then its the way democracy works and it should be respected.

I can really see a socialist getting up in the near future.

you really need a big underclass of citizens with the vote to get a socialist government up.

some mediteranean nations and south and central american nations have the necessary demographic for socialist governments.

I think if a government really did create a poverty class of substantial volume, then there is your voting base for a socialist government.

Capitalism cannot fix global warming in the time line required

 

[dan warna]

Capitalism cannot fix global warming in the time line required

I see nothing from attempts at socialism that suggests that would solve global warming either.

I've been an advocate of market dynamics with a social responsibility.

the best way to reduce pollutant emissions and increase pollutant free technology is place a dollar value on it and make it profitable.

 

[1jasonoz]

Then that's fair enough. You seem to be acting responsibly and doing what you can to avoid the issue, so that's fine by me.
Not everyone can afford to do these things though. That's the problem.

My description of Bracks as a socialist, or more accurately, a plonker of the highest order, does not revolve solely around this issue - it's a fair chunk of it, but it's just one piece of the jigsaw.
Remember immediately after he came to power in 1999 and the electricity union started a campaign of rolling strikes in one of the hottest summers on record? What did he do? Nothing. A lot of his policies revolve around spending huge amounts for unnecessary projects which are supposed to benefit everyone but the blowouts will hurt everyone in the long run.
And what of all his blow and bluster about increasing police numbers??

Owned by a private company i believe?

 

[portentous]

I lived in Victoria under the Bracks Government for 3 1/2 years and had no complaints. Also lived there under Kennett and had plenty of complaints. I'm neither wealthy nor poor, very much "middle class" but Kennett made some decisions which very badly affected the area I lived in at the time.

 

[Contra Mundum]

I see nothing from attempts at socialism that suggests that would solve global warming either.

I've been an advocate of market dynamics with a social responsibility.

the best way to reduce pollutant emissions and increase pollutant free technology is place a dollar value on it and make it profitable.

I suppose that what I am saying is imprecise. Corporate Capital is not going to solve Global Warming. It will have to be done through rigourous Government intervention - National and International

 

[Mr Q]

What is wrong with the public transport in Scarborough?? I lived in Perth for quite a number of years and never had any hassle there with the pt systems..

Since you brought up Perth's PT anyway (even if by accident), I'd have to give it a plug. It's an excellent system, the only real flaw being night services that are definitely lacking unless you live on a rail line.

The rail network is very good, and will only improve once the Mandurah line opens. There were some problems a few years back when the previous government privatised the bus services, but they appear to have been cleared up with further investment from the public purse (of course, they could have just kept Government ownership).

The biggest problem in Perth is that there are too many people scared of using PT services, and are thus unaware of what is available. It could be better, but that now relies on people actually using the services that exist to their capacity. One of the key aspects to this (in my opinion), is to get people that rarely use PT options to use them for special events, such as the footy - and thus why I believe that PT options is the number one priority in the location of a new stadium in Perth.

 

[medusala]

Melbourne will never be world class in the London style of world class

London isnt world class. Not only cant you get a seat on a train but they barely operate whenever its hot or there are leaves/snow on the track. Punctuality is also poor compared with other countries (as is price). The undeground suffers from small, non air conditioned carriages and is the most expensive system in the world ($10 for a single stop). The old Routemaster buses were good but Red Ken got rid of them.

 

[Murray]

I don't think even Steve Bracks calls himself a socialist

 

[Alvin Teal]

I lived in Victoria under the Bracks Government for 3 1/2 years and had no complaints. Also lived there under Kennett and had plenty of complaints. I'm neither wealthy nor poor, very much "middle class" but Kennett made some decisions which very badly affected the area I lived in at the time.

Interesting - as I can speak directly the reverse.

Lived under the Thomson, Cain / Kirner, Kennett Governments, and for 3 and a bit years under ' Thievin' Steven ' .
The area in which I lived benefitted greatly under Thomson , regressed incredibly under Cain / Kirner , theu improved immensely again under Kennett, then became little more than a ghetto immediately after Bracks took power
Maybe it's the old ' safe seats ' thing - Labor neglecting the safe seats out West, Libs neglecting theirs out East? Many other safe Labor areas in the years following Bracks' ascension suffered similarly.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Bracks is a do nothing idiot.

On the news tonight (paraphrasing) "recycled water is a last resort that Queensland have had to resort to but we do not believe that Victoria will have to follow yet."

Yet due to his incompetence and inability to conceive of a plan that doesnt throw money to construction companies or celebrate his own governments status as a ruling party Victoria will move to recycled water eventually as no solutions are laid out by the Bracks government.

A start could be subsidising water/grey water tanks for residential use and taxing industrial use of water which comprises something like 90% of water use.

He fell into government beating the despised Kennett and has remained due to incompetent opposition and his "do-nothing" policy which means he cant be criticised. Much like Howard he is riding the wave of relative economic prosperity that means people are comfortable with the status quo. Meanwhile we sail on inot the future blind leaving the next generation to sort everything out when the ******** finally hits the fan.

 

[portentous]

Interesting - as I can speak directly the reverse.

Lived under the Thomson, Cain / Kirner, Kennett Governments, and for 3 and a bit years under ' Thievin' Steven ' .
The area in which I lived benefitted greatly under Thomson , regressed incredibly under Cain / Kirner , theu improved immensely again under Kennett, then became little more than a ghetto immediately after Bracks took power
Maybe it's the old ' safe seats ' thing - Labor neglecting the safe seats out West, Libs neglecting theirs out East? Many other safe Labor areas in the years following Bracks' ascension suffered similarly.

I was in the Latrobe Valley when Kennett was in power. That was when the SEC was sold off. He probably made the right economic decision but put absolutely no thought into the social ramifications. Thousands of workers lost their jobs in a fairly short period and had nowhere to go-except Centrelink where I was working at the time. An area that already had significant drug and alcohol dependency issues (amongst others) became far worse. It was quite tragic in many respects. There was no infrastructure ie support agencies to deal with a problem of the scale he created.

I was living in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne under Bracks. He didn't do anything,either positive or negative, that affected me out there.

I will 'fess up to being an ALP voter, and having some issues with Bracks though.

 

[Alvin Teal]

I was in the Latrobe Valley when Kennett was in power. That was when the SEC was sold off. He probably made the right economic decision but put absolutely no thought into the social ramifications. Thousands of workers lost their jobs in a fairly short period and had nowhere to go-except Centrelink where I was working at the time. An area that already had significant drug and alcohol dependency issues (amongst others) became far worse. It was quite tragic in many respects. There was no infrastructure ie support agencies to deal with a problem of the scale he created.

I was living in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne under Bracks. He didn't do anything,either positive or negative, that affected me out there.

I will 'fess up to being an ALP voter, and having some issues with Bracks though.

Fair enough. The Latrobe Valley has it's particular issues and I can see where you would have had a gripe with some of Kennett's policies with their impact on the area, especially dealing first hand with the fallout.

It's a fairly similar situation to what formed my attitudes against Labor in the early 1980s when they exploded several small areas in the outer north western, western and south western suburbs into massive isolated satellite cities with their cheap sponsored home laons thru` Tricontinental Bank ( or whatever it was called ) fiasco which moved most of the riff raff from Preston and Broadmeadows, amongst other areas, into previously sleepy country villages and completely destroyed the lifestyle enjoyed by those who chose to settle there. While the housing developments shot up, the infrastructure didn't follow and in fact the Cain Government scrapped or delayed many infrastructure projects in their first term, such as the electrification of the Werribee rail line.

Kennett's seven year reign gave these areas most of the infrastructure that had been lacking and also put in place plans for future development, which Bracks promptly chucked out the window and returned to the slapdash ' knock 'em up, bring ' em in ' style of development of the early 80s which has had the same effect as the sale of the SEC by Kennett on LTV. Big satellite cities with high unemployment levels and bored teenagers with nothing to do.

 

[Todman]

Bracks is a classic conservative premier.

He a do nothing premier.

Classic Conservative thought is to do as little as possible and let the market provide,

Bracks to a T

almost

Labor loves interfering in your life, proof he now has people employed to look over the fence into your backyard under the guise of catching water wasters.

 

[Alvin Teal]

Labor loves interfering in your life, proof he now has people employed to look over the fence into your backyard under the guise of catching water wasters.

Typical Labor philosophy though. Divide and conquer.

 

[portentous]

Fair enough. The Latrobe Valley has it's particular issues and I can see where you would have had a gripe with some of Kennett's policies with their impact on the area, especially dealing first hand with the fallout.

It's a fairly similar situation to what formed my attitudes against Labor in the early 1980s when they exploded several small areas in the outer north western, western and south western suburbs into massive isolated satellite cities with their cheap sponsored home laons thru` Tricontinental Bank ( or whatever it was called ) fiasco which moved most of the riff raff from Preston and Broadmeadows, amongst other areas, into previously sleepy country villages and completely destroyed the lifestyle enjoyed by those who chose to settle there. While the housing developments shot up, the infrastructure didn't follow and in fact the Cain Government scrapped or delayed many infrastructure projects in their first term, such as the electrification of the Werribee rail line.

Kennett's seven year reign gave these areas most of the infrastructure that had been lacking and also put in place plans for future development, which Bracks promptly chucked out the window and returned to the slapdash ' knock 'em up, bring ' em in ' style of development of the early 80s which has had the same effect as the sale of the SEC by Kennett on LTV. Big satellite cities with high unemployment levels and bored teenagers with nothing to do.

Kennett also closed a sh**load of schools and cut back public sector spending bigtime. Bracks has since returned it to previous levels. Now obviously, you and I will disagree as to who's right in this area! Truth be told, I think somewhere in the middle is best but it's never going to happen.

I hate the whole "satellite city"philosophy. Noarlunga and Elizabeth are prime examples of why. I hope that the new development out our way by Salisbury Council et al, doesn't go along a similar vein, although I think it's "target market" is a different demographic ie defence force workers, so hope that it won't. Hopefully it will be more like Mawson Lakes than Elizabeth, not that I'd live in Mawson Lakes either BTW!

Anyway, you're a rightie, I'm a leftie, so most things we'll disagree on. I enjoy the debate though.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Bracks is a do nothing idiot.

On the news tonight (paraphrasing) "recycled water is a last resort that Queensland have had to resort to but we do not believe that Victoria will have to follow yet."

Yet due to his incompetence and inability to conceive of a plan that doesnt throw money to construction companies or celebrate his own governments status as a ruling party Victoria will move to recycled water eventually as no solutions are laid out by the Bracks government.

A start could be subsidising water/grey water tanks for residential use and taxing industrial use of water which comprises something like 90% of water use.

He fell into government beating the despised Kennett and has remained due to incompetent opposition and his "do-nothing" policy which means he cant be criticised. Much like Howard he is riding the wave of relative economic prosperity that means people are comfortable with the status quo. Meanwhile we sail on inot the future blind leaving the next generation to sort everything out when the ******** finally hits the fan.

I just installed grey water plumbing in my joint - you get a rebate.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Typical Labor philosophy though. Divide and conquer.

What are you talking about. Howard knows more about wedges than a tree feller at the turn of last century!

 

[portentous]

What are you talking about. Howard knows more about wedges than a tree feller at the turn of last century!

Argument overboard.

 

[Alvin Teal]

Kennett also closed a sh**load of schools and cut back public sector spending bigtime. Bracks has since returned it to previous levels. Now obviously, you and I will disagree as to who's right in this area! Truth be told, I think somewhere in the middle is best but it's never going to happen.

I hate the whole "satellite city"philosophy. Noarlunga and Elizabeth are prime examples of why. I hope that the new development out our way by Salisbury Council et al, doesn't go along a similar vein, although I think it's "target market" is a different demographic ie defence force workers, so hope that it won't. Hopefully it will be more like Mawson Lakes than Elizabeth, not that I'd live in Mawson Lakes either BTW!

Anyway, you're a rightie, I'm a leftie, so most things we'll disagree on. I enjoy the debate though.

Yep, I think it's good and enjoyable to be able to debate in a civil manner even though, as you point out, we're very much on different political wings.
In my area it was Kennett who opened or upgraded a lot of schools after the previous Cain / Kirner rabble had let them run to seed. We got a huge new hospital and a huge new police complex under Kennett, and our ramshackle 1930s public transport services were brought into the 20th century. All Bracks has done in that area since 1999 is explode the population, let the infrastructure run back to seed again and cover every bit of green space he can lay his hands on with concrete or bricks and mortar. But again, I think it's a case of the ' safe seat ' theory. It all goes in cycles, I'm sure.

Speaking of satellite cities I reckon Noarlunga gets a bad rap undeservedly. It's actually planned very well IMO around Colonnaides and the train / bus interchange and cates for a very wide demographic. Elizabeth was a mistake, I think everyone would acknowledge that
Dunno much about the north but I'm told Mawson is quite well done also.
Be interesting to see how the new Port development works out.

 

[Alvin Teal]

What are you talking about. Howard knows more about wedges than a tree feller at the turn of last century!

As did the hard Left ' red rag ' unions in the public sector in the 1980s led by Lou di Gregorio and his ilk.

 

[Richo83]

I don't know whether you can call a many who supports public-private partnerships, is in favor of privatizing major public services and spends the bare minimum on services, choosing spending them on private schemes such as the Commonwealth Games, and the grand prix instead a socialist.