Opinion Will either Carlton or Essendon be the bolter in 2022?

Which club is more likely to win another flag first?


  • Total voters
    314

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The_MCG

Debutant
Dec 10, 2021
52
108
AFL Club
Carlton
Fair points. However there have been enough games from Plowman, Setterfield, McGovern, Martin, Dow, Kennedy et al to note they are below average AFL players. The Blues were brilliant in getting something from WCE for SPS, who in many ways typified a long period of poor drafting.

Everyone loves Crippa but the combination of injury and changing game systems means he is a shadow of himself. The Don's Heppel is slow as a wet week but has been able to adapt and provide value and leadership. He does not have to be hidden when the ball is in transition. I cannot see Cripps adapting to a role - he is a bit like JPK (bloods), Mitchell (hawks) Selwood (cats) where all these guys run in treacle boots.

I feel like Voss will get the best out of Cripps, plus the acquisition of Cerra and Hewitt will take some of the pressure off as well.
 

master bate

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 13, 2006
14,424
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Melbourne
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Essendon's form after a slow start wasn't all that far off the best teams last year so it wouldn't be a shock to see them jump right up, although I suspect they're probably a year away and they probably want to keep playing young talls and being patient rather than making a lunge for immediate success.

He was pretty well done by the end but Hooker getting wound up was kind of indicative of that.

Carlton I just can't see Voss turning it around right away in one preseason. A great result would be Essendon 2021 but with a more advanced list.

Both sides I'd actually say are decent chances of doing something in 2023, but they probably need the year. They'd be other teams I'd have as more likely to really bolt from outside the top 4 in to contention.
 

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TheBrownDog
Sep 2, 2008
56,707
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Essendon
Despite being a confirmed basket case and handicapped by a coach with the tactical acuity of a house plant Carlton have rattled the Bombers in recent times.

I'm sure the Bombers will come out bravely and give a good account of themselves in quarter 1 but if past holds true it could be another bleak evening coming up for Essendon supporters.

That's because we kept kicking it to your spare in Jones or Docherty happens every time when we play Carlton.

Carlton then rebound and goal because our defence leaks like a tap the other way when we turn over the ball nothing to do with Carlton being better than Essendon.
 

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TheBrownDog
Sep 2, 2008
56,707
33,473
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
W
At his size, Wright should be dominating as a forward/backup ruck, even though he doesn't want to ruck. I rate Cox, to play both ends, but more as a KPD than a KPF

Agree about Wright

Wright played ok across the season but i see the same frustations that Dew would have seen when he was at the Suns. Once Gold Coast got Ben King it was bye,bye Wright.

Suns couldn't off load him quickly enough
 

Mootsy

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 13, 2015
7,137
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:poutingcat:Neither, we both suck and have done so for quite some time.
Have won zero trophies, medals, you name it, zilch, nudda! in the entire 2000's..
We are nothing but nostalgia acts :cry:
washed up has beenz!
i know it you know it,
well all know it! :sweatsmile:
 
Last edited:

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TheBrownDog
Sep 2, 2008
56,707
33,473
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Neither, we both suck and have done so for quite some time.
Have won zero trophies, medals, you name it, zilch, nudda! in the entire 2000's..
We are nothing but nostalgia acts :cry:
washed up has beenz!
it seems.

Sad but true.

Although i do think this is the best position we have been in terms of list build and coaching havent been this optimistic about Essendon in 20 years.
 

Linda Lovelace

Club Legend
Apr 24, 2013
2,181
5,762
AFL Club
Collingwood
Essendon top 4, Carlton 6th-10th, so I'll split the difference and say 8th.

Essendon has built a list capable of flags in the next few years. It might be one year too early in their development in 2022 but they are nearly there.

Carlton still have problems and will be unsettled by crazy Vossy's first year. But there is too much talent in that team not to rack up some wins.

Carlton are going to transition from being disappointing because they outright suck to being disappointing because they are mediocre when they should be good.
 

Red Black and Blue

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 1, 2006
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We could potentially be successful. But we’ll need to become incredibly proficient with our game plan as we lack the raw stars in the midfield to go head to head with the best. I do think we do have the support players to execute a very good game plan and room for growth.
 

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gbatman

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 26, 2008
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With a bit of luck and natural improvement that inevitably comes for a young side like Essendon and Carlton, they could both be bolters in finals this year. Both have spent a lot of time accumulating good young talent, that talent began to mature for Essendon last year and is ready to mature for Carlton this year.

It would be great to see both sides going head to head as serious contenders in finals. Has not happened since very early 2000s.
 

Freomaniac

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May 3, 2007
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With a bit of luck and natural improvement that inevitably comes for a young side like Essendon and Carlton, they could both be bolters in finals this year. Both have spent a lot of time accumulating good young talent, that talent began to mature for Essendon last year and is ready to mature for Carlton this year.

It would be great to see both sides going head to head as serious contenders in finals. Has not happened since very early 2000s.
And the last decent final between Carlton and essendon was the 1999 preliminary final.

It sounds like a lifetime ago I saw Anthony Koutafides played like he was the best player in the AFL.
 

nineteen eighty

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Can someone from both teams list the midfields of the respective teams. Possibly break them up under the following categories:

  • Elite / A
  • B
  • Supporting
  • Wingers (I see the role wings play these days as critical to how a midfield is structured).

Or even simply list out the mids (inc those who will get a run through the midfield but be more supporting players) and I'll categorise from there.

Will go a long way to answering the question as to who the bolter MAY be.
 

gbatman

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 26, 2008
14,004
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Behind You...
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Carlton
Other Teams
Justice League
Can someone from both teams list the midfields of the respective teams. Possibly break them up under the following categories:

  • Elite / A
  • B
  • Supporting
  • Wingers (I see the role wings play these days as critical to how a midfield is structured).

Or even simply list out the mids (inc those who will get a run through the midfield but be more supporting players) and I'll categorise from there.

Will go a long way to answering the question as to who the bolter MAY be.

For Carlton

Onballers:
Walsh - Elite midfielder, one of the competitions best, haven't seen his best yet.

Cripps - Has not been at his best for two seasons but prior to that was one of the best in the league at what he did. Rumoured to have been struggling with injuries.

Cerra - Quality young player who is only 22 so his best footy is yet to come. Will have matured this year and should be starting to peak. His progress was going forwards pretty sharply last season and is also an option for the wing.

Hewett - Rated pretty highly at the swans, plays the game as you would like to see it played. Will add a lot to Carlton's midfield.

Kennedy - He's turned 24 and his injury riddled past seems to be behind him. Had a great finish to last season, he appears to have matured as a player.

Curnow - Ed Curnow is Ed Curnow. Will he be best 22? He will sure keep others honest but his long term future is probably a similar story to Nathan Jones of Melbourne.

Dow - For all the criticism he gets, he was only 21 last season. The former pick 3 is not a ready made player like Walsh, he's a slow developer who probably won't begin to show his wares until he's around 22 which he is now like most inside midfield recruits. Forget his previous seasons, he's going to be a slow developer, but this season is the one to judge him. Best footy is probably 2 seasons away still.

Stocker - Love how he plays, really came on playing back pocket last season and there were hopes he would play midfield this season however an ankle injury has put a halt to that. He will be back but this makes it hard to build the tank to play in the centre. Former first round pick with good skills and a hard edge just needs to develop his running which he had done before this setback, lets see how he finishes the season. Still only 22 years old so his best is ahead of him.

Fisher - A slow developer with lots of skills has mostly played forward but had began to move into the midfield. On and off injuries last season prevented continuity but this year he looks more mature and fit so lets see where that leads him. He's 23 years old now so just entering his prime years so should start to see the best of him.

Setterfield - Showed a lot two seasons ago, last year played out of position on a wing and then succumbed to injuries. Former number 5 pick, was a talented junior but has had a lot of injuries over his history. Question mark is whether he can overcome that and get some continuity.

Wings
Philp - Really excited about this former first round pick, loads of ability, athleticism and talent but has spent his first 2 seasons injured. He will be a top player but development wise, where he is is unknown. I expect him to be best 22 next season.

O'Brien - He's a very skilful and talented player but a slow developer. A slight build but elite kick and running ability. His last month of footy last season was amongst the better wingers in the comp statistically, particularly with his ability to open play up and deliver to forwards by foot. If that is anything to go by and his new standards he's going to be good but lets see. He's only 22 so it's fair to say his best football will be from 23 onwards like

Newnes - Been a good cheap get to fill that gap on the wing. He's ok but not the future.

Carroll - Really talented young player who will be in his second year. He'll be good but will he be ready? Hard to say.

Cuningham - Began to mature last year after some steady development but then did his ACL. He will be back but how well he goes only time will tell.

Cottrell - Elite runner but skills are rough, could be a good honest player.

Potential Wing option
Williams - Talented backman who has never been fit enough to play midfield. If he gets fit he could play anywhere in the midfield, if.

Kemp - Probably going to play back but would love to see him play wing. Another high draft pick with loads of talent who has spent his first two seasons injured.

Docherty - Has played a bit of wing but coming back from chemo, who knows where he will be at.


Carlton are a very big unknown quality wise. A lot of players hoping to be over their injury riddled early days. Some new recruits and a good handful of early draft picks who have been developing and maturing and should start coming on. Wing is a weak spot but one where there is potential to fill it. Midfield depth and pace is a weak spot but the potential to fill that is there as well. One thing is for sure, they won't be anywhere near as poor as they were in 2021.
 

Arr0w

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Nov 13, 2015
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For Carlton

Onballers:
Walsh - Elite midfielder, one of the competitions best, haven't seen his best yet.

Cripps - Has not been at his best for two seasons but prior to that was one of the best in the league at what he did. Rumoured to have been struggling with injuries.

Cerra - Quality young player who is only 22 so his best footy is yet to come. Will have matured this year and should be starting to peak. His progress was going forwards pretty sharply last season and is also an option for the wing.

Hewett - Rated pretty highly at the swans, plays the game as you would like to see it played. Will add a lot to Carlton's midfield.

Kennedy - He's turned 24 and his injury riddled past seems to be behind him. Had a great finish to last season, he appears to have matured as a player.

Curnow - Ed Curnow is Ed Curnow. Will he be best 22? He will sure keep others honest but his long term future is probably a similar story to Nathan Jones of Melbourne.

Dow - For all the criticism he gets, he was only 21 last season. The former pick 3 is not a ready made player like Walsh, he's a slow developer who probably won't begin to show his wares until he's around 22 which he is now like most inside midfield recruits. Forget his previous seasons, he's going to be a slow developer, but this season is the one to judge him. Best footy is probably 2 seasons away still.

Stocker - Love how he plays, really came on playing back pocket last season and there were hopes he would play midfield this season however an ankle injury has put a halt to that. He will be back but this makes it hard to build the tank to play in the centre. Former first round pick with good skills and a hard edge just needs to develop his running which he had done before this setback, lets see how he finishes the season. Still only 22 years old so his best is ahead of him.

Fisher - A slow developer with lots of skills has mostly played forward but had began to move into the midfield. On and off injuries last season prevented continuity but this year he looks more mature and fit so lets see where that leads him. He's 23 years old now so just entering his prime years so should start to see the best of him.

Setterfield - Showed a lot two seasons ago, last year played out of position on a wing and then succumbed to injuries. Former number 5 pick, was a talented junior but has had a lot of injuries over his history. Question mark is whether he can overcome that and get some continuity.

Wings
Philp - Really excited about this former first round pick, loads of ability, athleticism and talent but has spent his first 2 seasons injured. He will be a top player but development wise, where he is is unknown. I expect him to be best 22 next season.

O'Brien - He's a very skilful and talented player but a slow developer. A slight build but elite kick and running ability. His last month of footy last season was amongst the better wingers in the comp statistically, particularly with his ability to open play up and deliver to forwards by foot. If that is anything to go by and his new standards he's going to be good but lets see. He's only 22 so it's fair to say his best football will be from 23 onwards like

Newnes - Been a good cheap get to fill that gap on the wing. He's ok but not the future.

Carroll - Really talented young player who will be in his second year. He'll be good but will he be ready? Hard to say.

Cuningham - Began to mature last year after some steady development but then did his ACL. He will be back but how well he goes only time will tell.

Cottrell - Elite runner but skills are rough, could be a good honest player.

Potential Wing option
Williams - Talented backman who has never been fit enough to play midfield. If he gets fit he could play anywhere in the midfield, if.

Kemp - Probably going to play back but would love to see him play wing. Another high draft pick with loads of talent who has spent his first two seasons injured.

Docherty - Has played a bit of wing but coming back from chemo, who knows where he will be at.


Carlton are a very big unknown quality wise. A lot of players hoping to be over their injury riddled early days. Some new recruits and a good handful of early draft picks who have been developing and maturing and should start coming on. Wing is a weak spot but one where there is potential to fill it. Midfield depth and pace is a weak spot but the potential to fill that is there as well. One thing is for sure, they won't be anywhere near as poor as they were in 2021.

Martin and Fisher will also rotate through stoppages
 

Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
14,653
9,511
AFL Club
Essendon
For Carlton

Onballers:
Walsh - Elite midfielder, one of the competitions best, haven't seen his best yet.

Cripps - Has not been at his best for two seasons but prior to that was one of the best in the league at what he did. Rumoured to have been struggling with injuries.

Cerra - Quality young player who is only 22 so his best footy is yet to come. Will have matured this year and should be starting to peak. His progress was going forwards pretty sharply last season and is also an option for the wing.

Hewett - Rated pretty highly at the swans, plays the game as you would like to see it played. Will add a lot to Carlton's midfield.

Kennedy - He's turned 24 and his injury riddled past seems to be behind him. Had a great finish to last season, he appears to have matured as a player.

Curnow - Ed Curnow is Ed Curnow. Will he be best 22? He will sure keep others honest but his long term future is probably a similar story to Nathan Jones of Melbourne.

Dow - For all the criticism he gets, he was only 21 last season. The former pick 3 is not a ready made player like Walsh, he's a slow developer who probably won't begin to show his wares until he's around 22 which he is now like most inside midfield recruits. Forget his previous seasons, he's going to be a slow developer, but this season is the one to judge him. Best footy is probably 2 seasons away still.

Stocker - Love how he plays, really came on playing back pocket last season and there were hopes he would play midfield this season however an ankle injury has put a halt to that. He will be back but this makes it hard to build the tank to play in the centre. Former first round pick with good skills and a hard edge just needs to develop his running which he had done before this setback, lets see how he finishes the season. Still only 22 years old so his best is ahead of him.

Fisher - A slow developer with lots of skills has mostly played forward but had began to move into the midfield. On and off injuries last season prevented continuity but this year he looks more mature and fit so lets see where that leads him. He's 23 years old now so just entering his prime years so should start to see the best of him.

Setterfield - Showed a lot two seasons ago, last year played out of position on a wing and then succumbed to injuries. Former number 5 pick, was a talented junior but has had a lot of injuries over his history. Question mark is whether he can overcome that and get some continuity.

Wings
Philp - Really excited about this former first round pick, loads of ability, athleticism and talent but has spent his first 2 seasons injured. He will be a top player but development wise, where he is is unknown. I expect him to be best 22 next season.

O'Brien - He's a very skilful and talented player but a slow developer. A slight build but elite kick and running ability. His last month of footy last season was amongst the better wingers in the comp statistically, particularly with his ability to open play up and deliver to forwards by foot. If that is anything to go by and his new standards he's going to be good but lets see. He's only 22 so it's fair to say his best football will be from 23 onwards like

Newnes - Been a good cheap get to fill that gap on the wing. He's ok but not the future.

Carroll - Really talented young player who will be in his second year. He'll be good but will he be ready? Hard to say.

Cuningham - Began to mature last year after some steady development but then did his ACL. He will be back but how well he goes only time will tell.

Cottrell - Elite runner but skills are rough, could be a good honest player.

Potential Wing option
Williams - Talented backman who has never been fit enough to play midfield. If he gets fit he could play anywhere in the midfield, if.

Kemp - Probably going to play back but would love to see him play wing. Another high draft pick with loads of talent who has spent his first two seasons injured.

Docherty - Has played a bit of wing but coming back from chemo, who knows where he will be at.


Carlton are a very big unknown quality wise. A lot of players hoping to be over their injury riddled early days. Some new recruits and a good handful of early draft picks who have been developing and maturing and should start coming on. Wing is a weak spot but one where there is potential to fill it. Midfield depth and pace is a weak spot but the potential to fill that is there as well. One thing is for sure, they won't be anywhere near as poor as they were in 2021.

I think Essendon should set up:

AFL

C: Cox - Parish - McGrath
R: Draper - Shiel - Merrett
Rotations: Stringer (centre bounces only), Caldwell, Langford (utility), Perkins (HFF)

VFL:

C: Durham - Hobbs - Ham
R: Bryan - Waterman - Guelfi
 

nineteen eighty

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 18, 2003
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For Carlton

Onballers:
Walsh - Elite midfielder, one of the competitions best, haven't seen his best yet.

Cripps - Has not been at his best for two seasons but prior to that was one of the best in the league at what he did. Rumoured to have been struggling with injuries.

Cerra - Quality young player who is only 22 so his best footy is yet to come. Will have matured this year and should be starting to peak. His progress was going forwards pretty sharply last season and is also an option for the wing.

Hewett - Rated pretty highly at the swans, plays the game as you would like to see it played. Will add a lot to Carlton's midfield.

Kennedy - He's turned 24 and his injury riddled past seems to be behind him. Had a great finish to last season, he appears to have matured as a player.

Curnow - Ed Curnow is Ed Curnow. Will he be best 22? He will sure keep others honest but his long term future is probably a similar story to Nathan Jones of Melbourne.

Dow - For all the criticism he gets, he was only 21 last season. The former pick 3 is not a ready made player like Walsh, he's a slow developer who probably won't begin to show his wares until he's around 22 which he is now like most inside midfield recruits. Forget his previous seasons, he's going to be a slow developer, but this season is the one to judge him. Best footy is probably 2 seasons away still.

Stocker - Love how he plays, really came on playing back pocket last season and there were hopes he would play midfield this season however an ankle injury has put a halt to that. He will be back but this makes it hard to build the tank to play in the centre. Former first round pick with good skills and a hard edge just needs to develop his running which he had done before this setback, lets see how he finishes the season. Still only 22 years old so his best is ahead of him.

Fisher - A slow developer with lots of skills has mostly played forward but had began to move into the midfield. On and off injuries last season prevented continuity but this year he looks more mature and fit so lets see where that leads him. He's 23 years old now so just entering his prime years so should start to see the best of him.

Setterfield - Showed a lot two seasons ago, last year played out of position on a wing and then succumbed to injuries. Former number 5 pick, was a talented junior but has had a lot of injuries over his history. Question mark is whether he can overcome that and get some continuity.

Wings
Philp - Really excited about this former first round pick, loads of ability, athleticism and talent but has spent his first 2 seasons injured. He will be a top player but development wise, where he is is unknown. I expect him to be best 22 next season.

O'Brien - He's a very skilful and talented player but a slow developer. A slight build but elite kick and running ability. His last month of footy last season was amongst the better wingers in the comp statistically, particularly with his ability to open play up and deliver to forwards by foot. If that is anything to go by and his new standards he's going to be good but lets see. He's only 22 so it's fair to say his best football will be from 23 onwards like

Newnes - Been a good cheap get to fill that gap on the wing. He's ok but not the future.

Carroll - Really talented young player who will be in his second year. He'll be good but will he be ready? Hard to say.

Cuningham - Began to mature last year after some steady development but then did his ACL. He will be back but how well he goes only time will tell.

Cottrell - Elite runner but skills are rough, could be a good honest player.

Potential Wing option
Williams - Talented backman who has never been fit enough to play midfield. If he gets fit he could play anywhere in the midfield, if.

Kemp - Probably going to play back but would love to see him play wing. Another high draft pick with loads of talent who has spent his first two seasons injured.

Docherty - Has played a bit of wing but coming back from chemo, who knows where he will be at.


Carlton are a very big unknown quality wise. A lot of players hoping to be over their injury riddled early days. Some new recruits and a good handful of early draft picks who have been developing and maturing and should start coming on. Wing is a weak spot but one where there is potential to fill it. Midfield depth and pace is a weak spot but the potential to fill that is there as well. One thing is for sure, they won't be anywhere near as poor as they were in 2021.

Fair.

And I reckon you're spot on with your comment..."Carlton are a very big unknown quality wise". I think there are waaaay too many unknowns to be able to say that they could be a bolter in '22. I think Cerra and Hewitt will improve your midfield (which has been very weak). Cripps is a wildcard...let's see how he goes. For 2 seasons now everyone's been hoping he will come good and hasn't. Time will tell. The other development players need to come on. Hence, too much needs to come together at the one time for the Blue to be a bolter...for mine.

As for EFC, I would say they have some good top end talent in their mids but little in the way of depth. Need those young mids to develop. Again, can it come together this year for them to be a bolter...I don't think so. There may be steady improvement to the point of making the 8 again but simply making the 8 and getting smashed first week doesn't make a bolter.