Opinion Worst team for red time composure in the afl?

[living_in_syd]

Seems like we are developing a pattern of conceding red time goals, I wonder if theres a stat for this? We are surely the worst at it.

Its stemming from the end of each quarter, you just know the opposition will score. And its always easy ones too, like whenever it close we panic or just give away an easy free or a 50 out of nowhere like today. North were in no position to score a goal but we did our best to help them.

As a result, whenever it gets tight at the end of the game or the other team has momentum, we fold. Fair enough if they were great goals, but gc one and this week were just poor efforts really. Been happening all year, even last year against wc, just no composure to ice the game. No one has any confidence.

Is this a coaching problem? Are our assistants doing their job? Why we so bad at this? Discipline? We literally did not learn anything from last week. No game awareness.

 

[juss]

Seems like we are developing a pattern of conceding red time goals, I wonder if theres a stat for this? We are surely the worst at it.

Its stemming from the end of each quarter, you just know the opposition will score. And its always easy ones too, like whenever it close we panic or just give away an easy free or a 50 out of nowhere like today. North were in no position to score a goal but we did our best to help them.

As a result, whenever it gets tight at the end of the game or the other team has momentum, we fold. Fair enough if they were great goals, but gc one and this week were just poor efforts really. Been happening all year, even last year against wc, just no composure to ice the game. No one has any confidence.

Is this a coaching problem? Are our assistants doing their job? Why we so bad at this? Discipline? We literally did not learn anything from last week. No game awareness.

You are right, it happens all the time against us.

I don't know the cause, whether it's a mental drop off in concentration, tactical errors in that if we can't score or it's not in our half, we need to just lock it down/ force stoppages or make it a dogfight so no one can score, or a fitness thing and at the end of quarters we run out of steam compared to younger sides. It can only really be one of those things.

 

[Daka]

Grimes is past it.
Vlastuin has had a poor month.

 

[Tiges1229]

Exactly then why don’t the ******* coaching staff fix it , wtf do
We do at training every week play chess or something ffs .

 

[living_in_syd]

Exactly then why don’t the ******* coaching staff fix it , wtf do
We do at training every week play chess or something ffs .

It has to be coaching. How can we be so consistently so terrible at icing a quarter let a alone a game. Its the opposite of clutch.

 

[db26]

Panic merchant's no composure mind you we're talking players who have won 3 flags.

 

[Noidnadroj]

It has to be coaching. How can we be so consistently so terrible at icing a quarter let a alone a game. Its the opposite of clutch.

In games decided by 6 points or less under Dimma we are 9 wins and 21 losses.

Yesterday there were clear signs of panic not related to skill execution … Ben Miller taking a rushed kick out (WTF is he taking kick outs at crucial stages of a close game..???). Aarts playing on from a mark. Nank kicking central to a contest at half back. Woeful set-up at the goal winning stoppage goal from Zurhaar.

All just mental meltdown moments that can be coached and trained. I’m not worried about skill execution as that will always be suspect under huge pressure … but there’s no excuse for errors coming from basic decision making mistakes.


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[Sir_Rancelot]

It's no coincidence that we have turned to s**t once we started playing players out of position.
FFS it shits me so bad to see Balta & Baker playing up forward. Dimma may think he is a genius but this is not working out.
Short's disposal has also turned to s**t now hw has moved into the midfield.

 

[59Stanley]

Thank you for this thread are there official stats for this as it’s been happening for years.
During games I tell the wife “watch we will cough up a goal in the last minute” and it happens week in week out. Sometimes multiple goals in a minute it’s amazing how regular.

 

[Tiger1994]

Looking at Points For (1631, #2 in comp - would likely be #1 if we kicked straight!!) vs Points Against (1418 #12 in comp), the game plan this year has relied upon us kicking big scores at the expense of a game plan based on defensive system which led us to premierships under DH.

This aggressive ball movement mindset leads to a high score from turnover % but equally opens up opposition teams to score heavily against our defensive system being caught out. In addition to our lack of clearance dominance is a huge issue against top teams with better defensive systems

To score more, you have to give up a bit defensively but it seems we have overcorrected and the balance isn't right. When the heat is on late in games, we don't know how to ice the clock and control the footy as we have been able to do over the past few years.

Example of this mindset being Miller trying to play on quickly from kick in, in Q4 yesterday quickly to catch out opposition teams but forcing a turnover with 3 mins to go shows our mindset In red time isn't too ice the clock but continue to score and be aggressive. Whether this is player led or coaching, it's an issue that needs addressing to avoid conceding these close games.

The issues we are having are eerily similar to Carlton 2019-2021...

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[TiggerMan22]

In games decided by 6 points or less under Dimma we are 9 wins and 21 losses.

Yesterday there were clear signs of panic not related to skill execution … Ben Miller taking a rushed kick out (WTF is he taking kick outs at crucial stages of a close game..???). Aarts playing on from a mark. Nank kicking central to a contest at half back. Woeful set-up at the goal winning stoppage goal from Zurhaar.

All just mental meltdown moments that can be coached and trained. I’m not worried about skill execution as that will always be suspect under huge pressure … but there’s no excuse for errors coming from basic decision making mistakes.


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Stats kinda useless. The first few years of Dimma shouldn't really be looked at. Those close losses were necessary for our development and not unexpected. We were clutch as * when we were winning flags but it was rarely a close win, we were too good for that and didn't let teams get that close. Time and time again 2018-2020 teams came out as hard in the last, but we put them away by a few goals. So that's going to work against our positive clutch wins. In 2020 for example we had 2 games with a margin under 3 goals all season (and we won both)

I also think it would be more useful to look at from 2013-2022 in our 'finals era'.

2013 - 1-1
2014 - 1-2
2015 - 1-1
2016 - 1-3
2017 - 0-3 (those infamous back to back to back chokes. But important lessons were learnt that helped us in the long run)
2018 - 2-1
2019 - 1-0
2020 - 1-1-0
2021 - 1-1-3
2022 - 0-4

As you can see, when we were good, games didn't get close generally. When we've been bad/average we have been bat at closing out, but we were generally good on closing out games at peak even if the wins don't show.

 

[TiggerMan22]

It's no coincidence that we have turned to s**t once we started playing players out of position.
FFS it shits me so bad to see Balta & Baker playing up forward. Dimma may think he is a genius but this is not working out.
Short's disposal has also turned to s**t now hw has moved into the midfield.

Why do people always complain about this "playing out of position" s**t. Its so silly. Its an experiment which has worked a lot of times. At times it finds player a permanent spot that they are better suited for, sometimes it gives flexibility for later in the season and sometimes its just good experience to learn.

Was playing Rioli "out of position" a bad idea? Should he still be having no impact as a small forward? Playing Baker forward and midfield literally turned a couple games for us and had him go from little impact to match winner.


I don't think Dimma thinks he's a genius for making these moves. Sometimes they pay of, sometimes they don't. But thinking players should have one position and never leave it is so completely outdated and not how the game is played at all anymore. Imagine if we just left Dusty permanetly in the midfield. Would we have any flags from this era?

 

[Dags2121]

In games decided by 6 points or less under Dimma we are 9 wins and 21 losses.

Yesterday there were clear signs of panic not related to skill execution … Ben Miller taking a rushed kick out (WTF is he taking kick outs at crucial stages of a close game..???). Aarts playing on from a mark. Nank kicking central to a contest at half back. Woeful set-up at the goal winning stoppage goal from Zurhaar.

All just mental meltdown moments that can be coached and trained. I’m not worried about skill execution as that will always be suspect under huge pressure … but there’s no excuse for errors coming from basic decision making mistakes.


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The frustration steams from players and coaches saying they would watch th footage and learn from mistakes.. then they lay another egg in th 4th qtr, again..


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[tora tora tora]

Stats kinda useless. The first few years of Dimma shouldn't really be looked at. Those close losses were necessary for our development and not unexpected. We were clutch as * when we were winning flags but it was rarely a close win, we were too good for that and didn't let teams get that close. Time and time again 2018-2020 teams came out as hard in the last, but we put them away by a few goals. So that's going to work against our positive clutch wins. In 2020 for example we had 2 games with a margin under 3 goals all season (and we won both)

I also think it would be more useful to look at from 2013-2022 in our 'finals era'.

2013 - 1-1
2014 - 1-2
2015 - 1-1
2016 - 1-3
2017 - 0-3 (those infamous back to back to back chokes. But important lessons were learnt that helped us in the long run)
2018 - 2-1
2019 - 1-0
2020 - 1-1-0
2021 - 1-1-3
2022 - 0-4

As you can see, when we were good, games didn't get close generally. When we've been bad/average we have been bat at closing out, but we were generally good on closing out games at peak even if the wins don't show.

I was hoping the poor 2021 was behind us when Dimma went into Round 1 this season with a relatively full list and he thought we could contend for the flag. Kamdyn and Vlas might have been unavailable, but he had his 2 ruck structure, he had Houli and Astbury covered with Rioli and Gibcus/Tarrrant. Cotch, Dusty and Dion playing. Dusty never got back to his best and the team didn't handle the new dissent rule. Free kicks against haven't stopped us winning flags but 50m penalty is brutal.
What disincentive can there be? I think Caddy got banished to the VFL for it.
I don't know how Geelong stay UP for so long, I was hoping in our decline we'd still be making finals. But tne performance of flag winning players has been appalling

 

[Noidnadroj]

Stats kinda useless. The first few years of Dimma shouldn't really be looked at. Those close losses were necessary for our development and not unexpected. We were clutch as * when we were winning flags but it was rarely a close win, we were too good for that and didn't let teams get that close. Time and time again 2018-2020 teams came out as hard in the last, but we put them away by a few goals. So that's going to work against our positive clutch wins. In 2020 for example we had 2 games with a margin under 3 goals all season (and we won both)

I also think it would be more useful to look at from 2013-2022 in our 'finals era'.

2013 - 1-1
2014 - 1-2
2015 - 1-1
2016 - 1-3
2017 - 0-3 (those infamous back to back to back chokes. But important lessons were learnt that helped us in the long run)
2018 - 2-1
2019 - 1-0
2020 - 1-1-0
2021 - 1-1-3
2022 - 0-4

As you can see, when we were good, games didn't get close generally. When we've been bad/average we have been bat at closing out, but we were generally good on closing out games at peak even if the wins don't show.

Yes, when we were good games didn’t get close that often - I agree with that. So where another team might have held on by 4 points, we kick 2 late goals and win by 16, so it’s not in these stats.

But I think we need to re-wire asap … we can’t afford to try and turn 4 point wins into 16 - we aren’t good enough any more and we need to grind out close wins in a different fashion by icing the game and flooding with defensive numbers.

At that last Kangas stoppage goal there was more space than on the moon. The Pies or Cats or Freo would have had 16 players crowding that stoppage and if an opponent is good enough to conjure a miracle snap, good luck to them.


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[living_in_syd]

I would geniunly want to know if we train for this or just hope for the best? We dont seem to have any game awareness

 

[Daka]

We are such a far cry from our premiership winning reign we had players that were so sure of themselves now we don't know what to do 2-3 years ago we would have found a way. it's actually making me so angry the way we play, I think i need stay off these forums and not talk richmond for the rest of the year.

 

[living_in_syd]

Poetic that we couldn’t defend a high ball in the square to end our season.

Couldnt defend red time ALL season. This is what really cost us the game.

 

[Mr Magic]

A lot of it is defence related.

There is no replacement for Rance, we need to do it a different way

 

[jetbhag]

A lot of it is defence related.

There is no replacement for Rance, we need to do it a different way

Rance would be handy or even arsebury

 

[tora tora tora]

Collingwood train the Red time scenario. It's been super effective for them. We drop a close final. It's not just the backline. But a late free kick against us end of Q1. A few clangers deep in defence. Gave goals away. Maybe we need the good ball users like short back in defence

 

[59Stanley]

Is this a question cause the answer is easy RFC all the way.

 

[living_in_syd]

Really need to work on our team defence again this off season.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Yes, when we were good games didn’t get close that often - I agree with that. So where another team might have held on by 4 points, we kick 2 late goals and win by 16, so it’s not in these stats.

But I think we need to re-wire asap … we can’t afford to try and turn 4 point wins into 16 - we aren’t good enough any more and we need to grind out close wins in a different fashion by icing the game and flooding with defensive numbers.

At that last Kangas stoppage goal there was more space than on the moon. The Pies or Cats or Freo would have had 16 players crowding that stoppage and if an opponent is good enough to conjure a miracle snap, good luck to them.


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Seems I was on the money after that Kangas game … it was always going to bite us eventually.


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[Noidnadroj]

Watching Sydney tonight it was clinical the way they iced that game in the last 10 minutes. They never looked like making a mistake like a silly kick, stupid free or missed pass. We can always without fail be relied upon to do something stupid to keep teams alive. Even last night with 25-seconds to go in first quarter … Cumberland drops a sitter that would have made it 7 or 12 point margin at 1/4 time. Ball rebounds and Balta gives away a free kick despite us having 2 on 1 numbers. Scores level at 1/4 time.

Then the Baker free and 50m… goal.

And it’s clear we don’t train close finishes under Dimma as we are 9-22 under his coaching in games decided by under a goal. That’s a pattern, not a fluke.

Even at the end last night … we know there can only be seconds left and Broad (a very experienced player) gets the ball alone at half back…. and he goes sideways to
Macca (why the * aren’t you heading straight down the guts!!)…. Then Macca (very experienced) friggin stops… and chips back across goal!!!! That is the play of players who were not switched on to go hell for
leather down the middle if we got a free ball … which we did with about 17-seconds left. Enough time to barrel down the middle and hope for a lucky bounce or something and a kick I50 for a mark. It just highlighted the dumb dumb dumb footy we played in close games all year.

We clearly didn’t train it and you can tell when you watch the Pies, Lions, Cats and Swans in close games. They may not win them all, but they know EXACTLY what to try and do in order to save the game or win it. We’ve got no idea and we need to address our closing skills as a huge priority in 2023.


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