Port Adelaide - Club in Crisis?

[Ford Fairlane]

Possibly a factor. I think it is definitely uncool to be seen wearing Port colours, and this is a major issue for the club and one that will probably never be overcome as it cannot be denied that a fairly large percentage of our supporter base comprises bogans.

Don't believe everything the crow-ambassador media and its supporter base would tell you.

Port's research has shown the demographic profile of the two clubs' supporter bases are very similar.

 

[morell]

Don't believe everything the crow-ambassador media and its supporter base would tell you.

Port's research has shown the demographic profile of the two clubs' supporter bases are very similar.

Very true.

In fact, the average yearly income of the Port supporter is marginally higher than the average for a Crows fan.

Maybe its all those cashed up tradesman. Bastards.

 

[aneale]

I wonder if Aneale would still suggest we use a Fremantle model for attracting fans if the following equation in the SA market can be used to determine fans:

Assuming success is split 50-50 between the SA clubs, that means 50% of new supporters will chose Port, and 50% Crows, according to the narrow view that success buys fans.

However, I have mentioned above that history and traditions are an important reason people chose a club to support. This is where the Collingwood model of pushing its brand - club colours and on-field history has helped them establish the biggest following in the league - this despite only winning one flag in 50+ years. It obviously works.

Given Port win the traditions and history selling-point in a head-to-head with the Crows, it is exactly why the club must use this differential to lure neutrals. The Crows can always claim to be the team for all South Australians, but they will never be able to claim a history dating back to 1870, or a trophy cabinet containing SANFL premierships.

The club can certainly try to understand how Fremantle have grown their fan base, however I believe what Port are doing (The Creed, 1870 etc) is the best possible way to differentiate from their main rival in an attempt to win fans over the long haul. Playing decent footy would obviously help too... as would have adopting this strategy from day one of our entry into the AFL... as would have Saint Kilda and North Melbourne premierships in 97 and 98...

Yes you would, after the 2004 GF if you went out to school footy clinics the ration of Port to Crows guernseys on kids far outweigh the 30/70 that is the accepted 'supporter base', Port got a massive bump in support as a result of that (whether it stuck is hard to know) from what all Clubs see as their target, kids with no ties. The same reason why you think a St Kilda, North double in 97/98 would have helped Port - all those impressionable kids whose parents werent that interested in footy, or more of a Centrals fan in the SANFL were attracted to the Crows by winning. At a recent footy clinic I saw, you could have counted the Port guernseys on your hands.

Collingwood, like Port do not need success to keep their support high as they are they are by far the largest group of supporters in their respective State, as I alluded to previously, Colligwood supporters breed more Collingwood supporters, they would have got their fair share of neutrals in the late 70's and early 80's with all their GF appearances, those people are now of the age to have kids etc, it's a cycle that will help if you are high profile like Collingwood admitedly. Both these Clubs would have a fan base that would be 90% as either born into it or attracted due to wining. Collingwood have won more games of football than anyone else in the comp, irrespective of only winning 1 flag in 50 years.

Port, or any Club, attracting a 25yo 'neutral' for example will happen occasionally but they would make up less than 1% of its membership total, but that is the only type of supporter that would consider history etc as their reason to choose sides. The difference between having a membership of 25,000 and 40,000 in the future is not a bunch of currently 25yo's. Port needs to attract the kid whose Dad follows Central Districts more than the AFL and do something so that the kid chooses Port over the Crows - that won't come down to tradition or history. It will come down to something a little more palpable or peer group pressure.

 

[morell]

Port, or any Club, attracting a 25yo 'neutral' for example will happen occasionally but they would make up less than 1% of its membership total, but that is the only type of supporter that would consider history etc as their reason to choose sides

Pure, unadulterated rubbish.

I became a Port fan at the age of 8 predominately because we won more premierships than anyone else, we were one of the oldest clubs and we had a winning tradition surround us.

It was a way of winning a playground argument. Much like BigFooty.

 

[aneale]

Pure, unadulterated rubbish.

I became a Port fan at the age of 8 predominately because we won more premierships than anyone else, we were one of the oldest clubs and we had a winning tradition surround us.

It was a way of winning a playground argument. Much like BigFooty.

that would be in the 'winning' part of the argument, when you were 8, Port Adelaide were incredibly strong and won a lot of games I imagine. 8 yo old kids right now don't recall SANFL dominance and have only seen some up and down seasons. If Port won in 2007 you would have seen more kids jump on them than what already did after such a great year.

You would be far in the minority as to the reason why a neutral jumped on if at 8 you weighed up 'tradition' - I will accept you weighed up 'oooh they win more' at 8.

 

[morell]

that would be in the 'winning' part of the argument, when you were 8, Port Adelaide were incredibly strong and won a lot of games I imagine. 8 yo old kids right now don't recall SANFL dominance and have only seen some up and down seasons. If Port won in 2007 you would have seen more kids jump on them than what already did after such a great year.

You would be far in the minority as to the reason why a neutral jumped on if at 8 you weighed up 'tradition' - I will accept you weighed up 'oooh they win more' at 8.

When you're talking about Port Adelaide, winning and tradition are one in the same.

As an example. I took my nieces to Alberton last year. Now they're weren't really keen football supporters - they only really showed an interest to placate me I suspect. That was until I asked them to count how many Premierships Port had won on the board. As kids they couldn't believe it and since then they have been hooked.

and as an aside;

We are never going to get the kids of Central supporters or Glenelg supporters or whatever. It's a complete myth that there is some sort of magical abundance of SANFL supporters little kiddies running about just waiting to be plucked and turned into Port AFL supporters. It just doesn't work like that. Most of the time the kids support whoever their family did, and in the case of Port, its either with or against us.

What we need to do is ensure we have a brand that can get the true neutrals on board - immigrants, interstaters (QLD, NSW), non football followers. To do that we need to differentiate ourselves from the corporate tradition less company known as the Crows.

Its a double edged sword. Not only will the return to marketing ourselves as PAFC est 1870 get true neutrals interested it would re-establish and bring back the core Port supporters that have gone missing in droves because of the direction the club has been heading until now.

The numbers in this category, btw, number in the tens of thousands.

 

[FishingRick04]

that would be in the 'winning' part of the argument, when you were 8, Port Adelaide were incredibly strong and won a lot of games I imagine. 8 yo old kids right now don't recall SANFL dominance and have only seen some up and down seasons. If Port won in 2007 you would have seen more kids jump on them than what already did after such a great year.

You would be far in the minority as to the reason why a neutral jumped on if at 8 you weighed up 'tradition' - I will accept you weighed up 'oooh they win more' at 8.

So why has Collingwood gone from strength to strength with minimal ultimate success over the last 15 or last 50 years? They rely on their history, they rely on their past strengths, they are proud of their heritage and fight for their rights!

Same as us, expcept we have out hands tied behind our back on so many issues.

Personally it's a silly arguement and an arguement done to death. if we are to have two consortium clubs representing SA, it shows how weak minded people have become here.

So much jealousy from Crows supporters because our club got in, it has to be undermined or critised at every opportunity. Keep it up PAFC 1870 for me

Bring back the P.B at home and our current home top as our away strip and I will be back in heaven

 

[Phhht]

We are never going to get the kids of Central supporters or Glenelg supporters or whatever. It's a complete myth that there is some sort of magical abundance of SANFL supporters little kiddies running about just waiting to be plucked and turned into Port AFL supporters. It just doesn't work like that. Most of the time the kids support whoever their family did, and in the case of Port, its either with or against us..

Too right morell. Enuff already of this w*nker whicker led bs campaign that PAFC hasn't tapped into this mythical source and if PAFC worked harder in this area our problems would magically disappear.

First and foremost we need to attract PORT supporters to PORT games/membership. You know, the same PORT supporters that turn up when we make finals or have good weather and play important games etc etc.

Marketing ourselves along the lines of ANY other club wont work. We need to reinforce that we are the REAL PORT ADELAIDE FOOTBALL CLUB. We need to build confidence within our core group of supporters that they will get what they have been getting for soooooo many years.

Campaigns like reiterating the Creed and acknowleding 1870 may seem as some small insignificant gimmicks to many non Port people but if those same 'gimmicks' build confidence among the core PAFC supporters it will have done its job.

Also rebuilding the Port culture should be the main issue our club should be focusing on. How the club responds in times of perceived disaster will have a significant outcome of how our support grows/declines.

I dont know why, perhaps it is the confidence from the way the PAFC has endured hardships throughout its history but I am confident that we will come out of this current period stronger.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

We've probably been over this topic a few times in the not-so-distant past, so I'll recycle my thoughts from a couple of those threads.

We have to project into the future, to strategically plan, and well out from our current start point. This is a long haul plan. It's too easy for people to want to pack up something they see these days as not working right away and move onto the next shiny new thing. Obviously I have a vested interest in seeing Port survive, but I don't see thirteen years as much of a time investment yet, it's just a part generational shift.

I don't know that Port have much chance to make any great inroads in any immediate timeframe into the existing football supporting public. As a single club entity we are an easy target for the non-Port supporters in this state. And it's hard to win them over. There's a certain parochialism in South Australia and it has a long memory. But that's not to say we can't build, even allowing for SA's ageing population.

On the above premise, probably our best chance for growth is in targeting and attracting migrants, a group with no pre-conceptions about football support. It's certainly worked for us in the past, although we had a greater geographic hook among the cultural communities settling in Queenstown, Royal Park, Seaton etc. It may not be the first generation of migrants, it may be the kids of those migrants. That's how it worked for me, and even today I see it with other second gen's as well. And there are the kids of parents who may have had limited interest in football who for whatever reason take an interest. Again, it's a time based strategy and finding the markets to tap into.

The SA government in South Australia's Strategic Plan has set a target of a 2 million population for South Australia by 2050. The Economic Development Board in a recently-released paper recommended this target be brought forward to 2027. How realistic this is terms of supporting infrastructure and services (not to mention water) remains to be seen. But this will only be achieved through a significant migrant intake, and this is the group we have to home in on, while continuing to work away at those South Australians without a strong football commitment from their past, and their children.

We have to hit that critical mass to get them, but in an ever growing population that can be achieved. It seems a reasonable assumption that one of the reasons for Freo's growth was the unavailability of West Coast tickets, especially once the mining/wealth/population boom kicked in. The Perth housing boom is reported to have driven up prices by 146 percent between 2002 and December 2007.

Marketing the club again as a strong, established football identity is important. Port meandered away from their roots to some extent in recent years but have made a conscious effort to get back there this season. As far as the Live the Creed marketing campaign goes, my honest view of it is that is was something we needed to do to re-establish our identity, which we diluted over the past few years. But I wouldn't want to see us bang on about it endlessly either, I'm happy for us just to be comfortable with that identity, just as we were as the Magpies for so many years. As the Boss sang, it's a sad man my friend who's livin' in his own skin and can't stand the company. We need to be comfortable in our own skin.

Port established a program with the City Of Salisbury last year. This has included initiatives such as a family day and linking it into its schools program - in one day alone Port visited 17 schools in the Gawler area. UniSA economics Professor Richard Blandy recently targeted Elizabeth as the most likely point for a second South Australian CBD. Port Adelaide has always had a natural affiliation with the area - I grew up there, and there was no shortage of support for Port. Maybe that's changed, and we know Port have stated our support in the southern suburbs is strong. The outer southern suburbs have also been targeted.

The Thunderbirds sponsorship does provide Port with valuable marketing opportunities outside of football. increased exposure into the women's sporting marketplace and into international markets. Even watching 10HD ads for the sports channel lately, there's Mo'onia Gerrard with the Power logo on her netball uniform extolling the new channel. Everything helps, and I'm sure Port would not have gone into such a sponsorship deal without investigating the benefits fully.

It's not as if Port sit back wringing their hands about crowds while doing nothing. We have community programs, schools programs, targeted migrant groups, looked at sponsorship deals that extend our identity outside traditional football markets, etc. The hopefully soon-to-be-completed negotiations with the AFL and NT Government around Port's commitment to football in the NT (the central corridor of Australia) will be another strong marketing focus, and hopefully membership generator.

A revised stadium deal is important. I think there's a bit of uninformed faffing about this. Port need to be sustainable and successful. To do that, they need to wipe debt, be able to invest in the football department to keep pace with the successful clubs (as has been mentioned no AFL club invests less $/win than Port - but financial investment in football departments is becoming more and more an indicator of on-field success), and to keep searching for and entering into markets that will build our support and attendance base. It's not as if Port want to keep all the money out of Football Park or want an indefinite deal, just to make sure the keel is upright, and build strength from there. Of course the AFL could come to the party, but there's some political leveraging going on there that is out of our control.

I expect the SANFL will come to the party to some extent. I understand they juggle competing interests, but I would hope that they see the need to keep Port strong and competitive and prioritise accordingly. I would expect the last thing they'd want to do is run an asset into the ground, and then expect it to grow from that position. Port are trying to keep pace with all clubs that can invest significantly in off-field football improvement. To be able to do that means you have a better chance of keeping pace with your opposition's on-field performance.

Given the salary cap and draft, of course this is the area that allows clubs to find a competitive advantage, and isn't regulated by the AFL. If the SANFL wants a strong and sustainable second AFL club to provide it with the money to keep its competition strong and independent (and the AFL club dividends represent a very small percentage of that profit margin) of course they need Port to have access to the funding that will contribute to that outcome. They have to accept the current diffferential standing in support between the two clubs, and give us a stadium deal that enables us to compete if not equally at least more equitably with the big money-earning clubs. If the crows want more, that has to be addressed separately.

I think sometimes we get overwhelmed with the negativity and forget to celebrate not just our long-term history, but what we have done recently and can do. We have nearly one-third of football support in this state, give or take, that's amazing for a single club from a ten-team state-based competition - and it's certainly more than a 'boutique club'. Especially when you consider we come from way behind the eight-ball of giving a seven year headstart to a supportwise state-based team, and them winning two flags in our first two years.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

NRL TV revenues? Evil News Corp? I'm sure it's all true but not really relevant to anything I've said. If you'll remember, this topic began because of a comment by someone saying that Port's crowd figures were healthy compared to NRL clubs so we shouldn't be worried about our finances.

I'm not having a go at NRL clubs or suggesting they have it easy. I'm sure they have their own issues as well. The only point I've made, which I'll make again now for the third time, is that comparing AFL and NRL crowd numbers is not a like for like comparison due to the different sources of revenues and expenses of each, and therefore should not be used as the sole basis for determining the financial position of the clubs in each code.

I hope that clarifies.

Your initial comment in your first couple of paragraphs response to Portsmeff was correct, that crowd numbers were somewhat irrelevant because of the different stadium set ups for different sports. And your comment above is basically correct.

You correctly explained the Euro soccer v AFL position but ignored the NRL clubs stadium position, most who still play at their cheap cost structured suburban home grounds, like the Euro soccer teams, or in the case of the Queensland NRL clubs, who play at clean stadiums and are more like the Lions or Geelong set ups, yet you completely ignored that and went off about NRL getting exaggerated revenue streams from TV and Pokies.

In fact if the NRL had an unfettered TV rights tender process, ie in 2000 Stokes and Ch 7 bid $50m more for the rights than Fox Sports/Ch 9 bid, but News Ltd veto it and went with the lower bid, then the statement that NRL is more dependant on TV monies than AFL might be accurate. Ch 7 and ch 10 don't bid for the NRL rights as they know the process is tainted so the NRL clubs don't get as much money as they could. But yes their game is more structured around TV viewership than crowds compared to the AFL but the clubs don't see enough benefits from TV monies because huge profits remain in Fox Sports ie The Premier Media Group which used to be 50/50 News/Packer but now is News/Consolidated Media Holdings. The potential loss making AFL rights sit inside Foxtel, where 50% of the losses will be born by Telstra and only 25% by News and 25% by CMH.

So yes, its not a like for like comparison re crowds, but your basis for the original statement re the NRL revenue streams was wrong.

As was another thing you said which I forgot to comment about.

With NRL, it comes down to one thing - POKIES. The laws in NSW are different to SA - only sporting, social, and RSL clubs can have pokies. Imagine all the pokies money is SA going to footy clubs rather than pub owners! The NRL clubs are funded entirely from TV and Pokies money, crowds are irrelevant for them.

Have you ever been to a pub in Sydney since 1995 or 1996 when the then new Carr Labor government let pubs own pokies to raise new state tax revenue??? They are everywhere! Pokies have been the death of many live music venues in Sydney and NSW. We discussed pokies in general in this thread a couple of years ago;

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399845

and in post 18 I linked the following article;

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22857894-421,00.html

Hotels rake in $1.7bn a year from poorest suburbs
EXCLUSIVE by Clare Masters
December 03, 2007 01:00am

SYDNEY's richest pubs earn more than $6 million a year each from poker machines - and rake in about $220,000 profit from each device.

But the hotels' pokie riches have come at the expense of Sydney's poorest residents, with the highest profits overlapping areas where mortgage stress is greatest.

Exclusive figures show local government areas that are being blitzed by gamblers match up with the mortgage belt, where struggling working families are losing their homes.

The records reveal NSW hotel revenue in June 2007 topped $1.699 billion - up from $205 million in June 1997.

And The Daily Telegraph has learned the skyrocketing profits have sparked anger among government officials amid concerns the Iemma Government may increase the number of machines allowed into hotels.

The revelations come just a week before the finalisation of the review of Gaming Machines Act, which is due to be handed down by December 19, but The Daily Telegraph understands it is expected to be tabled on December 13.

Speculation in the industry points to the review lifting the cap on poker machines numbers from 30 to 40 and a change to the current shut-down hours but Gaming and Racing minister Graham West has ruled out any radical reforms to the number of machines allowed in each hotel.

It was this expansion into pubs in NSW, which is why earlier this decade it was reported that 20% of the world's poker machines resided in NSW.

 

[Papa G]

Fremantle wear purple, have achieved three fifths of sweet **** all and still are growing, they are clearly doing something right off-field.

Although there are quite a few similarities to the set ups in both WA and SA, there are also many many differences. The assertion that Perth and Adelaide are the same size is one for starters. Perth has a population of 1.6 million, Adelaide has less than 1.2 million people. That's a 33% difference in population. If we brought that back to the most basic maths, if that increase in population was reflected in memberships, Port would have 40,000 members. Every second person in Perth for the best part of this decade have been walking around with Iron Ore under their finger nails, Perth is the capital of the cashed up bogan, more disposable income, more people, more members. The capacity of Subiaco has also been a factor in driving people to the Purple.

These are not excuses, these are reasons why the situation in Perth is different to that in Adelaide.

 

[morell]

We've probably been over this topic a few times in the not-so-distant past, so I'll recycle my thoughts from a couple of those threads.

<snip>

Fantastic post Ford.

Should be an article in The Advertiser, but it's too good for that rag.

 

[birdmanptr]

What does the size of our membership have to do with the effectiveness of attracting new members

:

None but does not part of your future success hinge on attracting some new members cause you cant continue on like this.

 

[Steve Dore]

None but does not part of your future success hinge on attracting some new members cause you cant continue on like this.

I assume you mean "because".

Yes it does. As I said in that post the "Live the Creed" campaign is about converting Port supporters into Port members.

 

[birdmanptr]

I assume you mean "because".

Yes it does. As I said in that post the "Live the Creed" campaign is about converting Port supporters into Port members.

Well thats right getting every one on board as a member would be great not just for your lot but every club is the same.

Surley some non Port supporters would be handy would they not

 

[morell]

Lockleys FC eh?

Please tell me you play A Grade?

 

[Malibu#27]

Surley some non Port supporters would be handy would they not

Yes they would ....

So what will it take for us to get your support ?








After you respond with the answer "absolutely nothing", you will understand our dilema. Supporters that dont barrack for us already are near impossible to get across, we picked up a lot of non-Port magpies supporters on our entry. Reasons varied, but some I know did so because they couldnt get Crows tickets, others, because they respected our club - even though they grew up hating our success .... and others because they considered us a club.


Our best chance of growing crowds involves getting the youth involved (hard - but easier than convincing 30-somethings), being successful on field, and presenting a viable alternative to you guys - a point of difference. At the same time we cant afford to lose our encumbants - because its 6 times harder to get new customers than it is to retain your existing customers.

 

[birdmanptr]

Lockleys FC eh?

Please tell me you play A Grade?

Oh yeah i play 46 years old and the stoneage aint far behind

A grade assisant

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Although there are quite a few similarities to the set ups in both WA and SA, there are also many many differences. The assertion that Perth and Adelaide are the same size is one for starters. Perth has a population of 1.6 million, Adelaide has less than 1.2 million people. That's a 33% difference in population. If we brought that back to the most basic maths, if that increase in population was reflected in memberships, Port would have 40,000 members. Every second person in Perth for the best part of this decade have been walking around with Iron Ore under their finger nails, Perth is the capital of the cashed up bogan, more disposable income, more people, more members. The capacity of Subiaco has also been a factor in driving people to the Purple.

These are not excuses, these are reasons why the situation in Perth is different to that in Adelaide.

Spot on. You can add Perth has a lot more head offices than Adelaide so corporate sponsorship is higher. That means corporates are more prepared to get involved with Freo than Port from a very basic level to a a high level.

But another important thing is Freo's home is 20km from WCE's home. Port and the crows are 5km apart. It means Port's heartland is smaller than Freo's.

Plus Freo supporters have showed they are prepared to go and watch insipid crap for a decade or so with a few good patches in between. Even in our SANFL days our crowds didn't show up in huge numbers to watch the crap teams or when we played crap.

 

[birdmanptr]

Yes they would ....

So what will it take for us to get your support ?
After you respond with the answer "absolutely nothing", you will understand our dilema. Supporters that dont barrack for us already are near impossible to get across, we picked up a lot of non-Port magpies supporters on our entry. Reasons varied, but some I know did so because they couldnt get Crows tickets, others, because they respected our club - even though they grew up hating our success .... and others because they considered us a club.


Our best chance of growing crowds involves getting the youth involved (hard - but easier than convincing 30-somethings), being successful on field, and presenting a viable alternative to you guys - a point of difference. At the same time we cant afford to lose our encumbants - because its 6 times harder to get new customers than it is to retain your existing customers.

Well you have my full permission to obtaing my CAT 1 details from the SANFL my card was used for more Port games than Crow games cause of my Lockleys comitments.I did not use it my self all the time my mate and his family went on our 4 cat 1 memberships we have in this house.

The bolded part is the same argument i had with rooch once on air not long after Port started there was no way you could keep the originals happy and at the same time get new blood funny enough he sort of agreed. I am not saying it is correct but thats the way it is wrong or right.

So in a very small way i do help Port i dont always go but i make sure my ticket are used for every Port game at AAMI.The guy i used to give them to is now and still a member and the guy i give them to now is struggling a bit so he will keep using them

 

[Malibu#27]

The bolded part is the same argument i had with rooch once on air not long after Port started there was no way you could keep the originals happy and at the same time get new blood funny enough he sort of agreed. I am not saying it is correct but thats the way it is wrong or right.

I agree ... this is a big issue.

So we have you as a member of sorts, I reckon its time you changed your sig and club

 

[birdmanptr]

I agree ... this is a big issue.

So we have you as a member of sorts, I reckon its time you changed your sig and club

One step at a time

 

[Phhht]

One step at a time

Show some kahones..... just do it already .... the dark side beckons.

Feel the power of the Darkside Luke.......

just do it already!

 

[PowerKat]

On the crowd issue, 4 friends of mine didnt renew their season tickets this year for the first time since the Power's inception due to a change in their circumstances i.e. moving interstate for work........

If the club is fair dinkum......why has no one ever contacted them to follow up or find out why this is the case?....The club constantly states they are working 'Very hard at increasing our crowd numbers'........

These people had never missed a game and bought a season ticket every year........just thought maybe the club might be interested to know why they hadn't renewed........obviously they aren't.

Does the club know where these people moved to? Another poster mentioned a move overseas. I'm not sure how the club would contact someone to survey them, unless they have updated contact details, and if the club knows that someone has moved away from Adelaide, it's pretty obvious why they haven't renewed.

 

[noddy]

Show some kahones..... just do it already .... the dark side beckons.

Feel the power of the Darkside Luke.......

just do it already!

Ah hah

So you are the dastardly one who enticed a certain crow supporter to switch clubs

Good work