Carlton Supporters and The AFL

[Oneiros]

My family have members seats at Subiaco, and when i go there it is truly shocking
This old women shouts "he's holding him" every time Cox initiates a grapple in the ruck, despite the fact cox inititates it and they are both grappling.

The Subiaco effect is the worst game altering result in football.

I went to the 'G just recently and thought "why is it so quiet...".

Of course, Etihad was a bit more what I was used to in terms of noise and reality defying calls for holding/fifty/etc.

 

[JackOutback]

My family have members seats at Subiaco, and when i go there it is truly shocking
This old women shouts "he's holding him" every time Cox initiates a grapple in the ruck, despite the fact cox inititates it and they are both grappling.

The Subiaco effect is the worst game altering result in football.

Funny thing is, I've been to the 'G and Docklands, and hear the same thing...thousands of people shouting ball regardless of prior opportunity. Despite many Melburnians thinking they are the considered thinkers of football, they are just as ignorant of the holding the ball rule as anyone else.

 

[GreatBradScott]

Read the page again. Look at the 1987 Sydney breaches, 1996 Essendon Breaches and 1999 Melbourne breaches. Same, if not worse, category of severity considering the cap was a lot smaller in those days.

Then look at the sanctions they received.

Then take off your anti-Carlton glasses.

Mate I don't have anti-Carlton glasses. Carlton are a massive part of my family, as most are members and have been involved at the club at some point, so you're getting no hate from me.

But do you seriously believe that you were persecuted and a part of an AFL conspiracy? You were made an example of because the AFL needed to stamp that sort of thing out.

But that still doesn't deny you didn't do the wrong thing to that extent and should have got off relatively easy.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Funny thing is, I've been to the 'G and Docklands, and hear the same thing...thousands of people shouting ball regardless of prior opportunity. Despite many Melburnians thinking they are the considered thinkers of football, they are just as ignorant of the holding the ball rule as anyone else.

Yeah but for some reason, unlike the Subiaco effect the umpires dont become confused and give out frees based on crowd opinion.
This is probably because the crowd at Eagles games are 90% eagles supporters
Whereas especially at Vic Vic games this is not often the case at the G

 

[PP34]

So now you can make threads on the main board aimed at insulting Carlton's fan base. This is a joke.

 

[PieBeast]

Aren't they all in jail??

Morans or carlton supporters?

We're just sticking up for our own

There are ways of doing it darl, yours (carlton supporters on the whole)is an embarrassing display of petulance, one-eyedness and the deary me syndrome.
I have no issue whatsoever with posters like dumb modus operandi when it comes to standing up for your club but the majority of your brethren have disgraced themselves on here in the last day or two.

 

[Corrosion]

This decision has shown once again that Carlton supporters whinge when being made to play within the rules. The reactions to the Greg Williams tribunal fiasco and the penalties regarding the salary cap cheating smacked the footballing world with a sense of arrogance and that it was an absolute travisty Carlton could be treated in such a way.

Here one of their own has been dealt appropriately and fairly within the rules, however again the club decides to attack the AFL and act like the toys have been spilled out of the pram. The Carlton supporters claiming the AFL should be shunned by Carlton and their supporters wanting the decision to be reviewed in court basically reiterates the fact that Carlton should not play by the guidelines and rules every other club is bound by.

Judd was clearly guilty and what he did was a low and cheap act that shocked many. The real problem is not Judd but rather the fact that there seems to be a toxic culture at Carlton that is clouding their ability to make good decisions and benefit the club. This year the club has failed to perform, however this is not the fault of the AFL but rather the club.

Maybe Carlton needs to refocus on their football and steer away from the tactics that caused them so much previous damage? The fact that their supporters claim things like the third party deals for Judd among others and that it was OK for them to win 195 by cheating the cap to obtain players in the years leading up to it shows nothing but an arrogant culture that the rules do not apply to them.

This has happened to Carlton over the course of the VFL days from the era of zoning to the more recent Pratt days. Maybe Carlton should move away from the questionable culture of the past 50 or so years as this will allow them to progress better?

Please lead me to a link where the Carlton Football Club has attacked the AFL over the 'Judd' decision. Also, as for the rest of your rant, it is nice that you lump me and other Carlton supporters that have accepted the decision and not whinged at all, into a collective group and decided that all Carlton supporters are whingers. Congratulations.

If you actually stood back and looked at almost every MRP or Tribunal decision made, you'll see that EVERY club has their fair share of whinging supporters. Deal with it.

 

[JackOutback]

Yeah but for some reason, unlike the Subiaco effect the umpires dont become confused and give out frees based on crowd opinion.
This is probably because the crowd at Eagles games are 90% eagles supporters
Whereas especially at Vic Vic games this is not often the case at the G

Don't blame us for the umpires' incompetence

 

[FlowersByIrene]

So now you can make threads on the main board aimed at insulting Carlton's fan base. This is a joke.

Welcome to the last week mate.
We need more Knights in navy blue defending our honour

 

[jonoman89]

Mate I don't have anti-Carlton glasses. Carlton are a massive part of my family, as most are members and have been involved at the club at some point, so you're getting no hate from me.

But do you seriously believe that you were persecuted and a part of an AFL conspiracy? You were made an example of because the AFL needed to stamp that sort of thing out.

But that still doesn't deny you didn't do the wrong thing to that extent and should have got off relatively easy.

No, I don't think there is an anti-Carlton conspiracy. I just think we, like many other clubs, have been unlucky in a few decisions made by the AFL. Problem is some of those decisions have nearly made the club insolvent.

We cheated and we deserved punishment for it. You'll struggle to find one Carlton supporter who didn't feel like vomitting when we found out what Elliot and co. had done. I still despise him for it and am ashamed of it.

But in light of other examples of salary cap cheating that wiki page points out, Carlton can consider itself unlucky. We were a big, powerful club which people hated for valid reasons. We were made an example of. The punishment we received was overboard.

Regarding the Judd incident, again Carlton supporters feel they have been unfairly treated. It's hard not to when your adored skipper receives punishment which is above and beyond anything we've seen so far this season for similar conduct. It's the inconsistency in the AFL's dealing with Carlton which irks us. I've repeatedly said Judd deserved weeks, as have most reasonable Carlton supporters.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Morans or carlton supporters?

There are ways of doing it darl, yours (carlton supporters on the whole)is an embarrassing display of petulance, one-eyedness and the deary me syndrome.
I have no issue whatsoever with posters like dumb modus operandi when it comes to standing up for your club but the majority of your brethren have disgraced themselves on here in the last day or two.

I think there were a few Collingwood supporters showing similar characteristics after the Wellingham instance

 

[Oneiros]

Yeah but for some reason, unlike the Subiaco effect the umpires dont become confused and give out frees based on crowd opinion.
This is probably because the crowd at Eagles games are 90% eagles supporters
Whereas especially at Vic Vic games this is not often the case at the G

Well yes. If you want to fix it, help us convince the state government to get a bigger stadium and then get in the good books of TourismWA by getting more Victorians to fly over for matches.

Crowd proportion doesn't change the fact that people were just as likely to call for holding the ball on situations that never warranted it.

I mean the crowd was baying for BAAAAAAALL when Sam Gibson or whatever his name was was pinged for holding after a legal handball in what was surely the single goofiest decision of the match.

 

[windyhill]

Just on the williams fiasco, with elliott taking out an injunction to enable williams to go out and play on the next week, which was a monday night game from memory v norf. williams get's to play and promptly knee's dean laidley in the niagra fall's. career over.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Well yes. If you want to fix it, help us convince the state government to get a bigger stadium and then get in the good books of TourismWA by getting more Victorians to fly over for matches.
Crowd proportion doesn't change the fact that people were just as likely to call for holding the ball on situations that never warranted it.

I mean the crowd was baying for BAAAAAAALL when Sam Gibson or whatever his name was was pinged for holding after a legal handball in what was surely the single goofiest decision of the match.

Oh believe me im dying for the new Stadium, im too tall for the seats at Subiaco, my knees get crushed against the freezing stone wall

 

[KennyHunter9]

This decision has shown once again that Carlton supporters whinge when being made to play within the rules. The reactions to the Greg Williams tribunal fiasco and the penalties regarding the salary cap cheating smacked the footballing world with a sense of arrogance and that it was an absolute travisty Carlton could be treated in such a way.

Here one of their own has been dealt appropriately and fairly within the rules, however again the club decides to attack the AFL and act like the toys have been spilled out of the pram. The Carlton supporters claiming the AFL should be shunned by Carlton and their supporters wanting the decision to be reviewed in court basically reiterates the fact that Carlton should not play by the guidelines and rules every other club is bound by.

Judd was clearly guilty and what he did was a low and cheap act that shocked many. The real problem is not Judd but rather the fact that there seems to be a toxic culture at Carlton that is clouding their ability to make good decisions and benefit the club. This year the club has failed to perform, however this is not the fault of the AFL but rather the club.

Maybe Carlton needs to refocus on their football and steer away from the tactics that caused them so much previous damage? The fact that their supporters claim things like the third party deals for Judd among others and that it was OK for them to win 195 by cheating the cap to obtain players in the years leading up to it shows nothing but an arrogant culture that the rules do not apply to them.

This has happened to Carlton over the course of the VFL days from the era of zoning to the more recent Pratt days. Maybe Carlton should move away from the questionable culture of the past 50 or so years as this will allow them to progress better?

I think you'll find, in respect of your three examples huge inconsistencies in the way the AFL have applied their rules to Carlton versus others:

- Compare the Essendon and Carlton salary cap penalties

- Compare the Williams umpire contact with every other example of umpire contact

- Compare the Judd penalty with the Jackson penalty (more serious injury suffered, and no pre-existing injury).

Once you've done your homework, please return with a full explanation. I think you'll be surprised, if you're actually being honest about this and don't have an agenda. But I guess that's pretty unlikely. Anyway, do your homework.

 

[Oneiros]

No, I don't think there is an anti-Carlton conspiracy. I just think we, like many other clubs, have been unlucky in a few decisions made by the AFL. Problem is some of those decisions have nearly made the club insolvent.

We cheated and we deserved punishment for it. You'll struggle to find one Carlton supporter who didn't feel like vomitting when we found out what Elliot and co. had done. I still despise him for it and am ashamed of it.

But in light of other examples of salary cap cheating that wiki page points out, Carlton can consider itself unlucky. We were a big, powerful club which people hated for valid reasons. We were made an example of. The punishment we received was overboard.

Regarding the Judd incident, again Carlton supporters feel they have been unfairly treated. It's hard not to when your adored skipper receives punishment which is above and beyond anything we've seen so far this season for similar conduct. It's the inconsistency in the AFL's dealing with Carlton which irks us. I've repeatedly said Judd deserved weeks, as have most reasonable Carlton supporters.

I dunno, strictly speaking the Essendon and Carlton judgements were in line with each other, substantial amounts of money and draft picks, in rough proportion.

The Sydney one is a head scratcher but I assume was to do with the fact it was the first and they were allowing some grace to let people get their books in order.

 

[Oneiros]

Morans or carlton supporters?

The Morans

 

[GreatBradScott]

We cheated and we deserved punishment for it. You'll struggle to find one Carlton supporter who didn't feel like vomitting when we found out what Elliot and co. had done. I still despise him for it and am ashamed of it.

But in light of other examples of salary cap cheating that wiki page points out, Carlton can consider itself unlucky. We were a big, powerful club which people hated for valid reasons. We were made an example of.

I understand the Elliot hate trust me. That name in households of my family is akin to poison, and I don't blame you. Right-Wing Crooks took hold of Carlton and stuffed your club up. You have every right to be angry and not only Jack, but even Collo to a certain extent for stitching you up at Etihad with other clubs.

You did do the wrong thing and got the punishment, and were a little unfortunate of the timing. But that being said, it was a record breach, therefore you got a record punishment.

But I still don't know how anyone can defend Judd on the grounds of the AFL and everyone hates us. That's what most of the people in this thread can't get their head around.
If this was a Collingwood supporter defending Wellingham for doing what he did (and some on this site have used such reasoning - Because we're hated), it's just not true.

 

[Pie eyed]

Cannot believe the over reaction to the Judd decision and the umpiring on Fri night - the blues board is lit up with complaints that Friday night was a set up and the Blues robbed!! I have read so many articles on the game and not 1 journalist mentioned poor umpiring against the Blues.

How can a 53 point hiding be the umpires fault?

For what is is worth the Blues won the free kick count - 17-16 - robbed of a game!!

I've seen the game.
Claims of a set-up or biased umpiring are foundationless.

 

[jonoman89]

You did do the wrong thing and got the punishment, and were a little unfortunate of the timing. But that being said, it was a record breach, therefore you got a record punishment.

Don't disagree with any of that. But I do have issues with is that the punishment we received was not proportionate to punishment received by other clubs for similar severe breaches. We got a record fine, record exclusion from the draft and removal of priority picks after we had already started winning spoons.

The severity of those penalties in the circumstances of our offence, other clubs' offences, and the position in which the club was in at the time of sanction was way too harsh. It's actually a miracle we still exist as a club.

But I still don't know how anyone can defend Judd on the grounds of the AFL and everyone hates us. That's what most of the people in this thread can't get their head around.
If this was a Collingwood supporter defending Wellingham for doing what he did (and some on this site have used such reasoning - Because we're hated), it's just not true.

I don't think that. I think he copped a raw deal due to the MRP and Tribunal being inherently stupid and inconsistent.

That said, the media interest and vitriol directed towards Judd this week is more than anything I have ever witnessed.

 

[Terex8]

You'll struggle to find one Carlton supporter who didn't feel like vomitting when we found out what Elliot and co. had done. I still despise him for it and am ashamed of it.

Revolutionist history.

At the time, the great majority of Carlton supporters were aware of the cheating and culture Elliot that championed well before the AFL did Carlton for salary cap breaches. Elliot was one of many that cheated the salary cap at Carlton, Craig Bradley & Silvagni are two rats that only admitted to accepting 'under the table' payments when they realized that Carlton wouldn't pay their full contract. It wasn't just Elliot who was responsible, it was the entire club, he is just a figure head fall guy for Carlton supporters who embraced that culture at the time and now want to sweep it under the carpet.

 

[chunkylover53]

This decision has shown once again that Carlton supporters whinge when being made to play within the rules. The reactions to the Greg Williams tribunal fiasco and the penalties regarding the salary cap cheating smacked the footballing world with a sense of arrogance and that it was an absolute travisty Carlton could be treated in such a way.

Here one of their own has been dealt appropriately and fairly within the rules, however again the club decides to attack the AFL and act like the toys have been spilled out of the pram. The Carlton supporters claiming the AFL should be shunned by Carlton and their supporters wanting the decision to be reviewed in court basically reiterates the fact that Carlton should not play by the guidelines and rules every other club is bound by.

Judd was clearly guilty and what he did was a low and cheap act that shocked many. The real problem is not Judd but rather the fact that there seems to be a toxic culture at Carlton that is clouding their ability to make good decisions and benefit the club. This year the club has failed to perform, however this is not the fault of the AFL but rather the club.

Maybe Carlton needs to refocus on their football and steer away from the tactics that caused them so much previous damage? The fact that their supporters claim things like the third party deals for Judd among others and that it was OK for them to win 195 by cheating the cap to obtain players in the years leading up to it shows nothing but an arrogant culture that the rules do not apply to them.

This has happened to Carlton over the course of the VFL days from the era of zoning to the more recent Pratt days. Maybe Carlton should move away from the questionable culture of the past 50 or so years as this will allow them to progress better?

How do bigfooty Carlton fans reflect "the club" itself?

 

[dumb]

Agree - how the umpire did not see Sam Gibson handball the footy in your forward line was terrible!!

Lucky for us you don't have a functioning forward line and nothing came of it. Hang on - did I just blame your terrible forward line? Dam - sorry - those bloody umps killed the game!!

that's correct. the holding the ball handball was a s**t decision.
i'm saying the umpiring was s**t. what is wrong with that? how many times do i have to say we would not have won the game anyway.

i don't want anything to do with the carlton afl umpiring conspiracy. the umpiring might have been bad but not because of anything to do with carlton, or bias or anything like that. i can feel miserable about our teams fortunes enough without playing the persecuted.

 

[Stratton_Gun]

All clubs supporters including my own whinge about the tribunal and think that someone is out to get them.
In saying that I have enjoyed reading through the Carlton board over the last few days

 

[jonoman89]

It wasn't just Elliot who was responsible, it was the entire club, he is just a figure head fall guy for Carlton supporters who embraced that culture at the time and now want to sweep it under the carpet.

What a ridiculous statement. If every person at the Club knew about it it would have been found out long before the AFL launched a specific inquiry into us. The highest level of the administration would have known and players would have had a fairly decent idea considering the circumstances in which they were paid.

Elliot led from the front on every issue. He was directly responsible for all the salary cap rorting amongst others.

Don't tarnish an entire club due to the actions of a few select individuals, it's childish. The salary cap scandal is just one way stupid people seek to invalidate every single achievement Carlton has ever realised. People say we should hand back out 1987 and 1995 premierships even though the AFL cleared us of any wrong doing in those seasons.

It's a cheap shot.