Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[Brown Bottle]

You make it sound like we dont have one of the largest humanitarian intakes per capita, in the world

It's inconvenient when the truth gets in the way isn't it?

 

[Brown Bottle]

Ta. The convention itself is vague and highly interpretive and I believe the Coalition use this basis to claim what it is doing is legal. It will end up in the courts no doubt.

The intent of the convention is clear to anybody prepared to read it. Being a signatory to it and then choosing to adopt a stance of identifying asylum seekers as "illegals", pushing them back out of territorial waters, etc. is a classic case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

"Ooh ooh, look at us over here, that's right, we're a signatory to the 1951 Refugee Convention. Aren't we all magnanimous and the like!?!"

"Actually, no, you're a bunch of campaigners."

 

[GuruJane]

Surely you've been around long enough to know countries in any relationship don't hold themselves to the same level of accountability they demand of the other? That's due to the domestic politics being different in each country.

And your point is ...? Of course domestic politics affects each country from different perspectives. Domestic politics are affecting Indonesia on this issue as much as domestic politics is affecting Australia.
However in this case it is Australia who is the destination of the people traffic, not Indonesia. And as this is entirely the result of a previous Australian governments policy it is up to Australia to take responsibility for stopping it, if that's what it wants to do now.

Australia is not demanding or even asking Indonesia to stop the traffic - just asking it to acquiesce in Australia stopping traffic by turning Indonesian boats, crewmen and foreign nationals back to Indonesia where the boats came from.

If it were Australian people smugglers as per your example, it would be Australian outrage that stopped it not Indonesian.

I presume you wouldn't argue Indonesia would not be outraged and demand the traffic be stopped?

Indonesia has in fact been acquiescing in the boat turn backs since around Dec 23 at a time when it was supposedly fiercely non co-operating with Australia.

Indonesia may well be a third world country, but it is not at all unsophisticated, has been a democracy for over 10 years and has had a very, very long association with Australia. So has its military and intelligence people. So it is very well versed in real politic. Back after election it would have calculated that Tony Abbott has a clear mandate for his border protection policy and has probably won at least a two term majority.

Real politic (aka logic) therefore suggests that Indonesia judges that the people smuggler industry has run its course, and is already positioning itself to get the issue off the table for the highest price they can get out of Tony Abbott.

Current stuff is just opportunistic posturing to raise the price. You know that, JD.

 

[Gough]

Realpolitik *drinks*

 

[Xsess]

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2011/01/05/glance-who-takes-most-asylum-claims

It's because we don't and aren't even close to it.

Lol my filter blocked your link. Its a copycat site

 

[Brown Bottle]

Lol my filter blocked your link. Its a copycat site

No it's not.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2011/01/05/glance-who-takes-most-asylum-claims

 

[Todman]

Still too high

 

[Xsess]

It's inconvenient when the truth gets in the way isn't it?

''We have the highest resettlement program per capita in the world,'' Mr Bowen said. ''It's not the answer to everything, with 43 million displaced people in the world, but the only way to get to Australia is not to get on a boat.''

 

[Gough]

And both sides of politics lie about the issue. Largely to appeal to people like you.

 

[Dont be a lemon]

 

[TheMase]

Says it all really. Sad.

 

[MrCharisma]

Well at least they're good looking.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Cherub my arse!!!

 

[Brown Bottle]

There still hasn't been a cure discovered for stupidity as far as I'm aware

 

[midorigreenwood]

Not that I'm weighing in on the Indonesia v Australia War but....

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-border-patrols/story-fn9hm1gu-1226806269892#

INDONESIA is unlikely to send an additional warship to prevent Australian vessels on border-protection operations entering its territorial waters because its navy does not have the fuel for such patrols.

Although Jakarta has promised to deploy an additional frigate to monitor its nautical borders after incursions by Australian navy ships, The Australian has learned that it is still beset by a shortage of fuel, which has previously prevented it from sending warships to respond to Australian requests to assist with asylum-seeker patrols.

 

[medusala]

You don't think that they have been in constant communication over this? What they say to the media and to each other I would think are two very different things.

Do you really think the Oz navy is so incompetent it just accidentally sailed in to their waters?

As for refugees SBS seems not to have noticed Australia is an island, refugees cant just move across a land border as per South Sudan / Syria.

An extraordinarily idiotic argument to make.

 

[Brown Bottle]

You don't think that they have been in constant communication over this? What they say to the media and to each other I would think are two very different things.

Do you really think the Oz navy is so incompetent it just accidentally sailed in to their waters?

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't believe what the Government is telling us then? That's so disappointing. Up until now I'd held them in quite high esteem.

As for refugees SBS seems not to have noticed Australia is an island, refugees cant just move across a land border as per South Sudan / Syria.

An extraordinarily idiotic argument to make.

That's possibly why we have a few thousand asylum seekers landing on our doorstep, and not a couple of million? Astonishing. You're really hitting it out of the park tonight.

 

[medusala]

Noone should ever believe anything ANY government tell them.

Noone should believe anything any government broadcaster propaganda outlet tells them either.

 

[noddy]

Thank the lord that we have meds to rely on in our endless search for truth, honesty & how many mins it should take to boil the perfect "egg".

 

[JeffDunne]

Not that I'm weighing in on the Indonesia v Australia War but....

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-border-patrols/story-fn9hm1gu-1226806269892#

Reminds me of Jakarta taxi drivers who always claim to westerners that their meter isn't working.

Maybe Tony should offer the Indonesian Navy fuel money to help them out?

 

[1061]

Maybe Tony should offer the Indonesian Navy fuel money to help them out?

Not such a bad idea, why don't we offer to have a refueling tanker available to fuel theirs and ours as we conduct joint patrols ..... make the offer and force the Indonesians to either accept or decline.

 

[GuruJane]

Not that I'm weighing in on the Indonesia v Australia War but....

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-border-patrols/story-fn9hm1gu-1226806269892#

That's one of the funniest stories for a long time.

Indonesia has just remembered the excuse its been using to explain why it can't patrol the southern waters and police its borders

Reminds me of the truthful assertions from sensible Labor supporters we have been enduring here since November 2007.

 

[JeffDunne]

Not such a bad idea, why don't we offer to have a refueling tanker available to fuel theirs and ours as we conduct joint patrols ..... make the offer and force the Indonesians to either accept or decline.

I don't think they're quite that stupid. It would take them 5 seconds to find another excuse.

They obviously see the problems putting boats in the region creates for them regardless of Oz "challenging their sovereignty".

As I said earlier in this thread, Indonesia sees this as an issue that gives them a lot of leverage. They aint going to give that up lightly. Domestically it's also not an issue for them. Nobody gives a shit. The occasional outrage towards Australia's actions helps their government appear strong but even on that they are reluctant to give it much air. It really has turned out to be an ideal issue for them in their dealings with Oz.

They have no reason to solve Australia's problem without there being something significant in it for them.

 

[GuruJane]

Scott Morrison must have been inwardly chuckling when answering these questions at Fridays press conference:

JOURNALIST: , do you have any response to reports that Jakarta is now actively monitoring the border to ensure that Australian Navy vessels aren't turning back boats?

SCOTT MORRISON: Well, let me deal with the second one first. And I would welcome the fact that the Indonesian Government would be seeking to patrol those waters and prevent people smugglers plying their trade.

JOURNALIST: Reports suggests though that Jakarta is monitoring that area, specifically in response to Australia - reports that Australia is turning back boats. Is your assumption perhaps that they are just monitoring the area to ensure people smugglers aren’t getting [indistinct]…

SCOTT MORRISON: [Interrupts] Well, I know that the Indonesian Government is concerned about people smuggling and I know that they don't want to see crimes being committed in their territories and they've, in the past, showed, I think, a great enthusiasm and dedication to trying to tackle people smuggling and if their Indonesian vessels that will now be patrolling those waters to prevent people breaking those laws, then I would certainly welcome that.

http://newsroom.customs.gov.au/chan...ference-operation-sovereign-borders-update-11

 

[GuruJane]

I don't think they're quite that stupid. It would take them 5 seconds to find another excuse.

They obviously see the problems putting boats in the region creates for them regardless of Oz "challenging their sovereignty".

As I said earlier in this thread, Indonesia sees this as an issue that gives them a lot of leverage. They aint going to give that up lightly. Domestically it's also not an issue for them. Nobody gives a shit. The occasional outrage towards Australia's actions helps their government appear strong but even on that they are reluctant to give it much air. It really has turned out to be an ideal issue for them in their dealings with Oz.

They have no reason to solve Australia's problem without there being something significant in it for them.

They already have been assisting by acquiescing on turn backs since around Dec 23. This fuel excuse just confirms the acquiescence will continue regardless of how many times Australia crosses the border.

Going by what Bachelard says the smuggling industry is all but dead already. The government in Canberra has changed, despite what sensible Labor supporters imagine.
Indonesia is not stupid.