Play Nice 2018 Non AFL Admin, Crowds, Ratings, Participation etc thread

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Arsenal haven't won it for 15 years
Liverpool haven't won it for 28 years
Tottenham haven't won it for 57 years

The fact that half the big 6 have not won it for yonks does not help your case one iota. The fact that Blackburn and Leeds won it 20/25 years ago is completely irrelevant

What is relevant is that Tottenham, had non-tv revenues of 100m pound in 15/16. This was 72m behind Liverpool in 5th spot. West ham came in 7th on 55m pound!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/01/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

How can you not see this?
 
The fact that half the big 6 have not won it for yonks does not help your case one iota. The fact that Blackburn and Leeds won it 20/25 years ago is completely irrelevant

What is relevant is that Tottenham, had non-tv revenues of 100m pound in 15/16. This was 72m behind Liverpool in 5th spot. West ham came in 7th on 55m pound!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/01/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

How can you not see this?
You've been saying all along the richest clubs can only win the title. The very clubs you say are the richest haven't won the title for decades between them.
 
You've been saying all along the richest clubs can only win the title. The very clubs you say are the richest haven't won the title for decades between them.
There is more than one title to win and Arsenal have won plenty and Liverpool their fair share too.

Spurs are the odd ones out but have probably been the most consistent of all over the last 3 or 4 years.

If you consider Champs League qualification an achievement, (and the clubs do), then Spurs tick that box.

But more importantly it’s the cliff from Spurs to 7th. If 7th is West Ham, well they are far off being in the big leagues.
 

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There is more than one title to win and Arsenal have won plenty and Liverpool their fair share too.

Spurs are the odd ones out but have probably been the most consistent of all over the last 3 or 4 years.

If you consider Champs League qualification an achievement, (and the clubs do), then Spurs tick that box.

But more importantly it’s the cliff from Spurs to 7th. If 7th is West Ham, well they are far off being in the big leagues.
It hasn't even been a decade that we have been talking about a big 6. In the noughties it was the big 4. Before that it was Man U and Liverpool. The group continues to expand. I've got no fears about who is 7th. Hell, the 7th placed club right now on the table is Leicester and they won the thing. There are some bloody big clubs outside the top 6 and one or two of them will be in next decade's big 8. If Man City did it then I think a good 10 clubs are candidates to step up. Some memories are short. Man City really was a joke.
 
It hasn't even been a decade that we have been talking about a big 6. In the noughties it was the big 4. Before that it was Man U and Liverpool. The group continues to expand. I've got no fears about who is 7th. Hell, the 7th placed club right now on the table is Leicester and they won the thing. There are some bloody big clubs outside the top 6 and one or two of them will be in next decade's big 8. If Man City did it then I think a good 10 clubs are candidates to step up. Some memories are short. Man City really was a joke.

Id disagree with it being only man u and liverpool back then. Growing up i remember arsenal and everton had huge support. This was before pay tv however, and before clubs became financial juggernaughts, and before private ownership ans stock market floats.

The issue with the big six today is that they have been able to sell their brand globally better than the rest, whixh is why their games get better support with viewers and they sell more merch. This cant keep increasing more and more unless you get uber buyers willing to do a chelsea or man city, and spend billions to globally build a brand and buy a first class squad
 
It hasn't even been a decade that we have been talking about a big 6. In the noughties it was the big 4. Before that it was Man U and Liverpool. The group continues to expand. I've got no fears about who is 7th. Hell, the 7th placed club right now on the table is Leicester and they won the thing. There are some bloody big clubs outside the top 6 and one or two of them will be in next decade's big 8. If Man City did it then I think a good 10 clubs are candidates to step up. Some memories are short. Man City really was a joke.


As per rfctiger's post, you seem to be completely oblivious of the underlying financial realities that govern this brave new world that european soccer finds itself in.

To say that Man city "did it" kind of doesn't really explain what happened....Man city "did it" because they got brought out by corrupt oil money that wanted to cleanse itself....and the thing is, with the financial fair play laws, it is now almost impossible to replicate what city group have done. Do you really think that Man City, based on its "brand" has commercial revenue raising capacity 60 million higher than Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool?

The problem is when the corrupt kleptocrats were helping Chelsea and Man City "did it", these fair play laws weren't in effect.

No-one is going to be able to buy out West Ham or Everton and replicate what happened to Man City and Chelsea.

upload_2018-2-1_9-52-16.png
 
As per rfctiger's post, you seem to be completely oblivious of the underlying financial realities that govern this brave new world that european soccer finds itself in.

To say that Man city "did it" kind of doesn't really explain what happened....Man city "did it" because they got brought out by corrupt oil money that wanted to cleanse itself....and the thing is, with the financial fair play laws, it is now almost impossible to replicate what city group have done. Do you really think that Man City, based on its "brand" has commercial revenue raising capacity 60 million higher than Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool?

The problem is when the corrupt kleptocrats were helping Chelsea and Man City "did it", these fair play laws weren't in effect.

No-one is going to be able to buy out West Ham or Everton and replicate what happened to Man City and Chelsea.

View attachment 455484
You may be "completely oblivious" to Everton's new 500 million pound 60k seat stadium project being funded by club funds and government loans.
 
Athletico Madrid at 68k have a smaller stadium than both Real Madrid 81k and Barcelona 99.5k but they only average low to mid 40k crowds compared to the big 2's 70k plus.

You're comparing different years here. Atletico moved in to Wanda Metropolitano this season. They're averaging 58k there. Liga and UCL matches are lock outs, only copa matches are pulling the average down.
 
You're comparing different years here. Atletico moved in to Wanda Metropolitano this season. They're averaging 58k there. Liga and UCL matches are lock outs, only copa matches are pulling the average down.
The stats quoted from Deloitte's Football Money League were for 2016-17. I can only talk about them, not a new stadium in its first season where the season has not been completed and the figures haven't been revealed.
 
You may be "completely oblivious" to Everton's new 500 million pound 60k seat stadium project being funded by club funds and government loans.

No, I was actually aware of it.

If it doubles their match-day revenues (which it almost certainly won't) it will put their total non TV revenues up to slightly above West Ham's. And given apparently the club has to cover 300 million pounds so, in effect, 15 million extra a year will take 20 years to recover even disregarding cost of capital

Why on earth do you think that is going to be a game changer? Seriously?

The only game changer would be some crony with a lot more coin than the current owner (apparently worth a mere 2.7 billion) as well as sufficient sway within UEFA being able to put 50 to 100 billion of his own money in annually and pretend it is legitimate revenue for FFP purposes. Good luck with that!
 
The issue with modern, commercial European soccer is the champions league and its TV money that people generate. It creates a gap between them and the rest.


Broussia Dortmand figures are surprising as they have the biggest stadium in the Bundesliga at 81,000. Maybe they didn't have a good year in 2016-17 and didn't play many other games out side the 17 home games for the league title.
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Dortmund is a throwback to the olden days. Like most German clubs(and perhaps because they are mostly member-based in Germany), they offer very cheap tickets. It is why, despite their high average attendance, their game day revenue is probably lower than others.

I think it is a variety of factors regarding match day difference. The amount of money Arsenal charges for a ticket(for example) is a disgrace. Would match day revenue also cover overseas tours like the one Arsenal did down here. Add in the fact that they have a high capacity(the top 6 all have 60+ stadiums IIRC) and more games than an Everton, then you can understand why the gap is there. A modern stadium like the Emirates would also have top-notch corporate facilities compared to Goodison.

West Ham offered cheap tickets to fill the stadium IIRC. Arsenal and all those "tourist-bandwagon" clubs would never have to worry about attracting fans in the long term.
 
The stats quoted from Deloitte's Football Money League were for 2016-17. I can only talk about them, not a new stadium in its first season where the season has not been completed and the figures haven't been revealed.
You were talking about them playing in a 68k stadium so of course one would think you were talking about this year's crowds, because this is the only season they have played at wanda metropolitano. For 50 years prior they were playing at the Vicente Calderon stadium. They're filling the new stadium in league and UCL matches. They've never averaged "low to mid 40k" in a 68k stadium.
 
The issue with modern, commercial European soccer is the champions league and its TV money that people generate. It creates a gap between them and the rest.



Dortmund is a throwback to the olden days. Like most German clubs(and perhaps because they are mostly member-based in Germany), they offer very cheap tickets. It is why, despite their high average attendance, their game day revenue is probably lower than others.

I think it is a variety of factors regarding match day difference. The amount of money Arsenal charges for a ticket(for example) is a disgrace. Would match day revenue also cover overseas tours like the one Arsenal did down here. Add in the fact that they have a high capacity(the top 6 all have 60+ stadiums IIRC) and more games than an Everton, then you can understand why the gap is there. A modern stadium like the Emirates would also have top-notch corporate facilities compared to Goodison.

West Ham offered cheap tickets to fill the stadium IIRC. Arsenal and all those "tourist-bandwagon" clubs would never have to worry about attracting fans in the long term.
West Ham indeed offers the lowest season ticket prices in London if not the EPL. It's not to "fill" the stadium, but rather to get fans to warm to the place (because it's a s**t hole). The issue of "filling" the stadium is complex because the actual capacity is based on regulations - not the actual number of seats. It has a 66k capacity but they're only allowed to sell 57k seats. West Ham has big problems getting approval to use all the seats. It's bizarre and essentially boils down to the council saying "only if the fans sit down". Personally, I'd love to see a scarf wearer from the council to go to a West Ham game and tell people to sit. Would be better action than what the club is serving on the pitch.

you're right about German clubs being member owned. It's actually the law that members have 51% minimum control. RB Leipzig got around it with some creative moves that have made them the most reviled club in the country.
 
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You were talking about them playing in a 68k stadium so of course one would think you were talking about this year's crowds, because this is the only season they have played at wanda metropolitano. For 50 years prior they were playing at the Vicente Calderon stadium. They're filling the new stadium in league and UCL matches. They've never averaged "low to mid 40k" in a 68k stadium.
Ok my bad I got the stadium wrong they played in 55k stadium in 2016-17. But in 2016-17 their average crowd for La Liga games were as follows for the big 3 http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Archive Spain
2016-2017
La Liga Santander

No. Club................... Average vs '16 Highest
1 FC Barcelona............. 78.034 -2,1% 98.485
2 Real Madrid CF........... 69.426 -2,6% 82.297
3 Club Atlético de Madrid 44.710 -5,1% 53.741

So main reasons why their matchday revenue is approx 1/3rd of the 2 big clubs a) is stadium capacity, b) is price of season tickets supply v demand for the 3 clubs and c) is people who turn up who don't have season tickets and the prices they pay. Not sure where food and beverage income from games is in that Deloite's table but if its all part of match day and the club owns the stadium, then size of stadium and crowds in stadiums owned by clubs compounds that difference.

This is 2012/13 data but you get the picture. This link has downloadable data for the 4 big leagues.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/da...ball-ticket-prices-premier-league-europe#data

upload_2018-2-1_17-18-39.png


and the 4 leagues which confirm's BobbyMorri's comments above about the Bundesliga offering cheap tickets.

upload_2018-2-1_17-19-51.png
 
Ok my bad I got the stadium wrong they played in 55k stadium in 2016-17. But in 2016-17 their average crowd for La Liga games were as follows for the big 3 http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Archive Spain
2016-2017
La Liga Santander

No. Club................... Average vs '16 Highest
1 FC Barcelona............. 78.034 -2,1% 98.485
2 Real Madrid CF........... 69.426 -2,6% 82.297
3 Club Atlético de Madrid 44.710 -5,1% 53.741

So main reasons why their matchday revenue is approx 1/3rd of the 2 big clubs a) is stadium capacity, b) is price of season tickets supply v demand for the 3 clubs and c) is people who turn up who don't have season tickets and the prices they pay. Not sure where food and beverage income from games is in that Deloite's table but if its all part of match day and the club owns the stadium, then size of stadium and crowds in stadiums owned by clubs compounds that difference.

This is 2012/13 data but you get the picture. This link has downloadable data for the 4 big leagues.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/da...ball-ticket-prices-premier-league-europe#data

View attachment 455600


and the 4 leagues which confirm's BobbyMorri's comments above about the Bundesliga offering cheap tickets.

View attachment 455601
Another big factor in match day revenues is the corporate allocation. Certainly the main issue for the Anfield expansion is that the additional 6-8k seats planned for the Annie end are chump change compared to getting more corporate suites in. The cheapest executive box for 10 people is 3,5k pound per game at Anfield. They could probably demolish the Centenary and replace it with 2 rows of boxes and make more.

Atletico definitely would have struggled to compete with Real in the old stadium on corporates alone. The boxes at the Calderon were embarrassing to look at.
 
Another big factor in match day revenues is the corporate allocation. Certainly the main issue for the Anfield expansion is that the additional 6-8k seats planned for the Annie end are chump change compared to getting more corporate suites in. The cheapest executive box for 10 people is 3,5k pound per game at Anfield. They could probably demolish the Centenary and replace it with 2 rows of boxes and make more.

Atletico definitely would have struggled to compete with Real in the old stadium on corporates alone. The boxes at the Calderon were embarrassing to look at.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read years ago in one of the annual Deloitte Football Money League reports that corporate stuff was included in commercial income rather than match day, but I don't know if that has changed as those stadium super boxes and more hospitality corporate type income has grown.
 
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read years ago in one of the annual Deloitte Football Money League reports that corporate stuff was included in commercial income rather than match day, but I don't know if that has changed as those stadium super boxes and more hospitality corporate type income has grown.
Yeah it's a bit of a hazy area for me too. I follow the stadium developments in England fairly closely and all of that discussion firmly puts hospitality in the match day category. I think there's enough overlap between the two that they should just be combined because ultimately it's income that comes from a bum on a seat, but the Deloittes of this world would have a different take on it.
 
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I wonder what Tottenham's match day revenues will be like from this season at Wembley. With the massive capacity it was very easy and relatively cheap (£40) to get good seats. I was there for the game against Everton a couple of weeks ago and it was amazing the number of fellow tourists on the trains and in the stands. Should be a gold mine for them given that they can fit twice as many people in as White Hart Lane.
 
I wonder what Tottenham's match day revenues will be like from this season at Wembley. With the massive capacity it was very easy and relatively cheap (£40) to get good seats. I was there for the game against Everton a couple of weeks ago and it was amazing the number of fellow tourists on the trains and in the stands. Should be a gold mine for them given that they can fit twice as many people in as White Hart Lane.
It will depend on what they charged for and how many season tickets they sold.
 
Last night BBL 36,000, AFLW 20,000, A League for top of the table Sydney FC at home a paltry 10,500 looks like the soccer is getting a hammering.Any excuses from the Soccer mob?
 

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