Ed Curnow's Successor

[Dadda Dave]

I think it could be a good role for stocker early on, but his endurance has question marks so not sure if it would suit, but run with role for a young mid has been done successfully with other teams, i think it was clarke from essendon maybe who did a great job on cripps last season, so it can work, but ed is one of the best in the business at being an offensive tagger, i got a lot of respect for ed

 

[Blue__Balls]

Someone mentioned in another thread recently that Paddy Dow should be given a Tagger's role, as he is a good ball winner, but also so he focuses on the OP and doesn't have time to over-think it.

This is a great idea and I think he should be doing this in 2021, whilst Ed still has a few years left, and can be set free to win the ball and not worry about negating the OP.

Dow's a burst mid who is already gassed halfway through quarters without doing much.

Stick him on a Neale, Oliver, Kelly, Macrae etc. and they'll have to hook him up on oxygen by quarter time and he'll be no good to anybody.

 

[FevolaWasFramed]

I think it could be a good role for stocker early on, but his endurance has question marks so not sure if it would suit, but run with role for a young mid has been done successfully with other teams, i think it was clarke from essendon maybe who did a great job on cripps last season, so it can work, but ed is one of the best in the business at being an offensive tagger, i got a lot of respect for ed

That was more to do with Bolton situation than Clarke's ability as a tagger, a skinny lanky kid that had played a couple of games isn't going to be able monster Paddy Cripps beast mode.

Question - Ed is pretty much cornered into the hard tagger's role. But does he play as a tagger every game, or were there games where he was advised to play loose?

Similarly, for the other teams in the comp, do they play a tagger each week?

I'd think as our midfield unit grows as a whole (and I expect the midfield to make a huge step in 2021), the need for a tagger diminishes as there's a spread of players you can rely on the win the ball out of the middle, rather than even needing to consider a defensive mindset (a la tagger) at all.

Most of the time, would start off normal and if a particular player was picking us to pieces, Teague would put Ed on them after the first quarter, that was generally his MO for most of the season.

Most teams will tag yes, Richmond are one of the few that don't.

You're always going to need someone to tag, only reason Richmond don't is their particular game-style.

I would be very surprised if the group got to the point where it would be diminished, you're always going to need someone to sit on their best player and ruin their day.

Who do you expect to make a huge step up? Setterfield etc? Walsh and Williams are certainly helpful in the midfield department.

Dow, Stocker, Kemp are sometime away from being consistent ball winners where tagging role would be diminished.

 

[katmanblue]

If we go with Jack - and I'm against it in general - I suggest something a little different. Instead of trying to tag out the opposition's best player - the general theory - get Jack big and strong, and pit him against the opposition's prime mover, the person who wins their clearances and their hard ball. Essentially, deprive them of their Cripps, and have Jack sharking their taps.

We're a clearance side, so anything which robs opposition of their own clearances is going to just add a dimension to our game as it currently stands. It means that the opposition cannot win the ball against us as often as they normally would, which works for our time in possession game which is another of our key indicators. And it means that, instead of needing a different type of tagger to tag out the difference between Danger, GAbblett, Whitfield, Kelly etc you're just developing a player to tag one; Cripps, Priddis, Pendlebury, Cunnington, the big inside mid. Sure, you've got hybrid players (Treloar, Bontempelli, Danger) but by and large those players hurt you with what they can do outside, once the ball is already supplied to them; you force them inside to compete where you're already strong in order to give them supply, and you've already taken an opposition's plan A away from them.

It would be similar to the way St Kilda has Steel on Cripps. Works a treat.

 

[Milshouse]

That was more to do with Bolton situation than Clarke's ability as a tagger, a skinny lanky kid that had played a couple of games isn't going to be able monster Paddy Cripps beast mode.



Most of the time, would start off normal and if a particular player was picking us to pieces, Teague would put Ed on them after the first quarter, that was generally his MO for most of the season.

Most teams will tag yes, Richmond are one of the few that don't.

You're always going to need someone to tag, only reason Richmond don't is their particular game-style.

I would be very surprised if the group got to the point where it would be diminished, you're always going to need someone to sit on their best player and ruin their day.

Who do you expect to make a huge step up? Setterfield etc? Walsh and Williams are certainly helpful in the midfield department.

Dow, Stocker, Kemp are sometime away from being consistent ball winners where tagging role would be diminished.

Kemp is another might do well in time with a defensive midfield role, but we dont know much about him as of yet, look forward to getting a chance to see our shiney new utility this year hopefully

 

[FevolaWasFramed]

Kemp is another might do well in time with a defensive midfield role, but we dont know much about him as of yet, look forward to getting a chance to see our shiney new utility this year hopefully

Very keen on Kemp, but unless he's superstar in the making, you'd expect the 100 games metric.

I would expect to see him this year, 5-10 games really, anything else would be a bonus.

Carlton campaigners such as myself need to temper their expectations towards him, he'll be good one day, but it might take some time to get there.

 

[Blue__Balls]

It would be similar to the way St Kilda has Steel and 3 of his teammates on Cripps. Works a treat.

FTFY.

 

[haveago]

I am very keen on Fogarty.

The limited chances he got to break into the Cats super strong midfield showed
he belonged.

A very smart,quick thinking player that is a natural inside and a good decision maker and finisher on the outside.
He also finds the pill regularly. Can take a load off Crippa.

My tip is he will be in the mid rotations from rd.1.
We targeted Williams and him to boost our on ball division and that is what they will do.

Ed has been a wonderful, loyal and committed team man that has got the absolute max. out of himself.
And that is the problem because at his age he is not going to improve.
He will still be capable of shutting down opp. mids as he is one of the best at this .......but

We have to make some tough calls to improve and our midfield is the line that needs it most.

Time for Sam Walsh

18

Sam Walsh

Age

23

Ht

184cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.1

5star

K

13.5

5star

HB

11.6

5star

M

5.1

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

3.4

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.2

5star

K

15.4

5star

HB

10.8

5star

M

6.0

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

4.8

5star

to be in there full time as well........very exciting.

 

[Coona Blues]

I am very keen on Fogarty.

The limited chances he got to break into the Cats super strong midfield showed
he belonged.

A very smart,quick thinking player that is a natural inside and a good decision maker and finisher on the outside.
He also finds the pill regularly. Can take a load off Crippa.

My tip is he will be in the mid rotations from rd.1.
We targeted Williams and him to boost our on ball division and that is what they will do.

Ed has been a wonderful, loyal and committed team man that has got the absolute max. out of himself.
And that is the problem because at his age he is not going to improve.
He will still be capable of shutting down opp. mids as he is one of the best at this .......but

We have to make some tough calls to improve and our midfield is the line that needs it most.

Time for Sam Walsh to be in there full time as well........very exciting.

Share your sentiments, but the feedback at recruitment was that he hadn't managed a full pre season with some nagging injuries, and was a bit behind in the endurance stakes. Suggested more forward in his first year with us, rotating in to the midfield for stints. With the abridged pre season, it is going to be hard for players previously not quite there physically to elevate unless they have done a mountain of work on their own.

Absolutely loved watching him in the U18 games in his draft year. Some of his team mates had a higher profile, but he was pretty much the "fabric that binds". Plenty of skills and smarts, just so many smarts and genuine grunt and work rate. I find it difficult to see who he displaces, but also difficult to see how he misses out.

 

[JustaBattler]

No one on the list atm has shown any indication that they can replace Ed's contribution - just like Levi - Ed has always been underrated - calling him a tagger is proof of that. Levi has been the scapegoat for years playing one out in the forward line - Ed has had to do the work of two players making up for the deficiencies of other so-called mids around him. If Ed didn't have to do so much running to make up for other player's missed tackles and lack of endurance - his field kicking (the only knock I have on him) would probably be a lot better as he would have more energy in the tank to execute better.

We are still one developed 4 quarter AFL mid and one wingman short of a decent 4Q midfield.The opportunity is there for a lot of the so far underwhelming investments the Club has made in first-round draft picks in midfielders. This is why Gibbons and Newnes have been so good for us - despite not many rating them on here - they play for 4 quarters at their level - much better than blokes who think one or two cameo efforts is good enough for AFL and team success and tackling is not a KPI they are interested in.


Have to be winning the between the arcs game in '21 against at least half the competition instead of losing it to most if we are to play finals.

 

[CJMB]

Share your sentiments, but the feedback at recruitment was that he hadn't managed a full pre season with some nagging injuries, and was a bit behind in the endurance stakes. Suggested more forward in his first year with us, rotating in to the midfield for stints. With the abridged pre season, it is going to be hard for players previously not quite there physically to elevate unless they have done a mountain of work on their own.

Absolutely loved watching him in the U18 games in his draft year. Some of his team mates had a higher profile, but he was pretty much the "fabric that binds". Plenty of skills and smarts, just so many smarts and genuine grunt and work rate. I find it difficult to see who he displaces, but also difficult to see how he misses out.

Pretty sure some of the recent Club press has mentioned him being a forward, at least for the time being. Might take him a little time to really get fit enough for notable mid time, if he can crack into the mid group of course.

 

[Christou2Kouta]

Philp is the one that strikes me as having the combination of team first, disciplined mindset as well as the physical attributes to keep up with any opposition midfielder and an excellent appetite to tackle. The timing of when he will be ready for regular 1s footy and Ed starting to decline also works well.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Probably the most relevant spot for this - remembered reading this article and thinking that it may have an insight into both Curnow's immediate future and our midfield balance moving forward.

‘Fans come for a reason’: Inside late coach Phil Walsh’s momentous call to set superstars free

‘Fans come for a reason’: Inside late coach’s momentous call to set superstars free

www.foxsports.com.au

I think there will be times we need to shut someone down with a run-with player. But it would appear that Teague's philosophy is that shutting a gun opponent out of the game isn't necessarily best for the game.

Will be very curious to see how long Teague maintains this attitude. I think it's refreshing, and it's good for the game as a whole, but while it might see a side sneak a flag (a la WB) I'm not sure it is going to deliver the dynasty that Carlton fans are expecting.

In the short term, it may make dropping Curnow a viable choice for the MC. I'd expect the first selected mids will be Cripps, Walsh, Setters and Williams. If Teague doesn't want a dedicated tagger, then Curnow needs to be compared to the next tier in Newnes, Gibbons, SPS, Murphy, Martin, Cunners, Willo, Fisher and Fogarty as well as breakout candidates like Dow, Stocker, LOB, Kemp, Philp. And that comparison is predominantly going to be on their offensive capability.

Might be a more attractive option to start JSOS on the bench as a forward rotation, defensive emergency and possible tagging option if required, and in doing so, free up Curnow's midfield time to be shared between Martin, Cunners and Fisher, or something along those lines.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Only a running beast could replace Ed. That’s Cottrell From what I’ve seen at training.

I wouldn’t be shocked if Gibbons fills that role the same way Libber Snr did. Works hard enough to stick with opponents, but can find the ball too.

 

[gbatman]

Tough, elite competitiveness, elite endurance and a strong body. I can't see anyone on our list yet who possess those qualities. Someone will have to mature, go up a level and emerge with them.

Think he will have plenty of seasons left. No rule saying he has to be replaced with a like type either.

We just need tough, skilled, competitors to emerge for us in the center of the ground.

 

[Jeremias]

In the short term, it may make dropping Curnow a viable choice for the MC. I'd expect the first selected mids will be Cripps, Walsh, Setters and Williams. If Teague doesn't want a dedicated tagger, then Curnow needs to be compared to the next tier in Newnes, Gibbons, SPS, Murphy, Martin, Cunners, Willo, Fisher and Fogarty as well as breakout candidates like Dow, Stocker, LOB, Kemp, Philp. And that comparison is predominantly going to be on their offensive capability.

Wrote this about Ed a few weeks back, seems particularly relevant here as well - because I don't see any realistic way dropping Ed becomes a viable option in 2021.

Ed still doesn't get the credit he deserves.

In 2020 he ranked:

- #1 at the club for centre bounces attended;
- Top 30 for clearances, second at the club behind Cripps;
- Top 10 for tackles, top 5 if you exclude finals, 1st at the club; and
- Top 20 for inside 50s, top 15 if you exclude finals, second at the club behind Walsh

Sure, we'll start phasing him out at some point but he's still far too important for us to remove him completely. That just won't happen in 2021.

Ed will be in the side even if Teague decides to move away from a dedicated tagging role. He brings so much more to the table than that, both defensively and offensively.

You're doing him a complete injustice by comparing him to most of those names you've put forward.

Tough, elite competitiveness, elite endurance and a strong body. I can't see anyone on our list yet who possess those qualities.

You've just described Sam Philp, minus the strong body.

A few more preseasons under his belt and he'll be primed to take on that role.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Accountable midfield.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Wrote this about Ed a few weeks back, seems particularly relevant here as well - because I don't see any realistic way dropping Ed becomes a viable option in 2021.



Ed will be in the side even if Teague decides to move away from a dedicated tagging role. He brings so much more to the table than that, both defensively and offensively.

You're doing him a complete injustice by comparing him to most of those names you've put forward.

On recent form, I think you're right.

But the gauntlet is well and truly thrown if Teague says "We don't want to be tagging midfielders, we want you guys to go head to head and beat them". Ed can do that, and has done for a long time, but where he shines is being able to blanket someone and still have enough in the tank to get involved in general play. If we send Cripps or Williams head to head with the Bont/Macrae types, then maybe Curnow becomes less important, and we elect to rotate Martin, Fisher and Cunners through his usual full time mid spot and have them cause headaches by playing off Smith or Libba.

 

[katmanblue]

Accountable midfield.

Would love one.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Only a running beast could replace Ed. That’s Cottrell From what I’ve seen at training.

I wouldn’t be shocked if Gibbons fills that role the same way Libber Snr did. Works hard enough to stick with opponents, but can find the ball too.

Not having a crack AD But It’s hard nominating a player like ‘Gibbons’ that hasn’t even played as a midfielder at all too having the capacity for a full time tagging or run with role, also on top of that he has no one on one ability wise in stopping the top shelf players running around, Libba an entirely different era, Cottrell has some better traits for the role particularly as an outside runner but his strength one on one as a pure midfielder is miles off...

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Tough, elite competitiveness, elite endurance and a strong body. I can't see anyone on our list yet who possess those qualities. Someone will have to mature, go up a level and emerge with them.

Think he will have plenty of seasons left. No rule saying he has to be replaced with a like type either.

We just need tough, skilled, competitors to emerge for us in the center of the ground.

Spot on... Admire Ed big time, locked the very best players down weekly also imo has improved his game becoming significantly more rounded from what it was from where he started particularly in the past couple of years skilled wise... So also for me some of the next crop of our next line midfielders hold their own and have the capability of winning or negating head to head matchups on the opposition guns...

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Accountable midfield.

Bang... midfield mix needs the accountability traits/weapons..

 

[AlecDuncan]

Not having a crack AD But It’s hard nominating a player like ‘Gibbons’ that hasn’t even played as a midfielder at all too having the capacity for a full time tagging or run with role, also on top of that he has no one on one ability wise in stopping the top shelf players running around, Libba an entirely different era, Cottrell has some better traits for the role particularly as an outside runner but his strength one on one as a pure midfielder is miles off...

”Hasn’t even played as a midfielder at all”? Hmm. The thing about Gibbons is he’ll be whatever he needs to be to play AFL. Never underestimate a mongrel’s hunger.

Yes, Cottrell is no midfielder (yet), but I well remember Ed’s kicking when he first arrived. It’s why he was given tagging jobs in the first place.

Ed will miss a game eventually, and we’ll see who measures up.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

”Hasn’t even played as a midfielder at all”? Hmm. The thing about Gibbons is he’ll be whatever he needs to be to play AFL. Never underestimate a mongrel’s hunger.

Yes, Cottrell is no midfielder (yet), but I well remember Ed’s kicking when he first arrived. It’s why he was given tagging jobs in the first place.

Ed will miss a game eventually, and we’ll see who measures up.

Fair enough, i just see it differently, he plays mainly as a high half forward who rolls up ground onto the packs and stoppages, I’m not doubting his ability as a midfielder particularly if given more of a chance in fact he like others is under-utilised I’d really like him getting some centre bounce time to better understand what he’s fully capable of but don’t agree with you on him being any sort of tagger for us, this 2020 season he did not attend one centre clearance at all...

 

[Blue__Balls]

Fair enough, i just see it differently, he plays mainly as a high half forward who rolls up ground onto the packs and stoppages, I’m not doubting his ability as a midfielder particularly if given more of a chance in fact he like others is under-utilised I’d really like him getting some centre bounce time to better understand what he’s fully capable of but don’t agree with you on him being any sort of tagger for us, this 2020 season he did not attend one centre clearance at all...

How many did SPS attend?

Given how unimaginative we've been with our centre bounce combinations under Teague, we probably shouldn't expect anything too drastic in this space. But equally, there are a lot of players on our list who have been tasked with specific roles who could certainly help shoulder that midfield load should we elect to use them.

I do agree that Gibbons is an unlikely candidate to play as a tagger. I don't think that's his go at all. Part time mid, sure, tagger, nope. At the very least, I think we have better candidates should we need someone to do a job - JSOS seems a good option, Setterfield has the size and smarts to do a defensive job, Newnes is a left field option if we want to run with Walsh/Willo on the wings, Kennedy could salvage his career by adding a defensive focus to his game, Stocker or Philp could be given the job while they're still developing, Cottrell or Owies both seem like disciplined role players who could be trialled. I think Gibbons (and Fogarty) are the types who benefit more from being used as small contested mids who can apply defensive pressure, rather than being used in negating roles specifically.