Training Apples' & Jen's Training Thread 2021 (Latest report #3590)

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Mark W said:
The point is demonstrably untrue and I’m amazed any Collingwood supporter would make that argument. In the 2000s we lost 2 perhaps 3 flags cause we were weak in the ruck. 2002, the one place we didn’t match Brisbane was in the ruck..McKee and Fraser were slaughtered. Our mids did a fantastic job roving to Brisbane’s rucks for most of the game, but that’s like running up a 2% gradient when your opponent is running on the flat. They ran out of steam and Brisbane got on top The last 10 minutes cause their rucks gave them first use of the ball. The 2007 prelim was a carbon copy. We matched Geelong everywhere but in the ruck. Otters smashed us…in a tight game it made a critical difference. In 2003 we were physically monstered by Brisbane. That monstering started in the ruck where Charman and Keating pulverised Fraser. That Collingwood team didn’t win a flag till we fixed the ruck problem. Simply put, we don’t win the 2010 flag without Jolly replacing Fraser. Ruck is certainly a position that can win or lose you a game
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Righto... Ive seen games as far back as when we had Thommo dominating, P Moore dominating, yet we still didn't win GF's


We lost the 2018 GF, with our dominant ruckman Grundy. NicNat didn't play. We won hit-outs, and lost clearances. Simply, their mids killed us.

We lost the 2019 Prelim, with our dominant ruckman having 73!! Yes, 73 hitouts against Mummy, who had 5 kicks and 14 hitouts for the day.

Geelong smashed us senseless in last year's semi, with Stanley!!! Yes, Stanley up against Grundy. You think Dangerman, Duncan, Selwood and Guthrie didn't have a bearing in that match? Along with Hawkins?

You think we lost the 2002 GF to Brissy because we didn't have a ruck? How about these apples.. Their mids had hacks like Voss, S Black, Ackermanis, Power, and hack forwards in J Brown and A Lynch. We had Bucks and Burns, and Rocca.

2003 GF was the same.

The two games that Grundy didn't play this year, we won. Against an unbeaten Melbourne with Gawn, and Adelaide with O'Brien dominating with 27 HO and 19 disposals.

We lost to Carlton, with Grundy getting 26 hitouts, 16 disposals. Silvagni was up against him in the ruck after De Koning was injured, yet we still lost clearances???

Yes, we can all pick games to back our arguments and opinions.
Mine is that the ruck position has far less impact on the team performance than a midfielder. I say, you can dominate in the ruck, but if you have poor midfielders, you are worse off.
Conversely, a competent ruck, with gun midfielders will still be a better chance of winning a game.

:)
 
slugger01 said:
How can i be missing the point when i was making it?

IMO:
The point is that the ruck position is not that important, and and certainly isn’t the position that can win or lose a game.
The point is that teams with average rucks are winning games and clearances.
The point is that teams with good ruckman are losing clearances and games.
Yet teams with rucks that are not really rated (Cats, Dogs, Blues) win games and clearances.

If i was to choose, i would have a gun midfielder over a gun ruckman.
Bont over Gawn, Grundy.

And if Melbourne didn't have Petracca or Oliver, their flag hopes would be shot.

Maybe Gawn and Grundy are the best ruckman in the league, but i rate midfielders like Bont, Petracca, Oliver, as having a bigger impact on team performance.
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You seem to be using very different standards for ruckman and mids. How many times over the last 5 years have Freo lost clearances and games with Nat Fyfe in the midfield. CB contests are 4 against 4. Around the ground are often 5 against 5. No one bloke is ever going to ever win the stoppage himself, unless the ruckman grabs it and bangs it forward which often has a negative outcome. Good ruckman give you an advantage which can be exploited or negated at ground level. Good mids win some and lose some.

The expectation that ruckman should totally decide who wins the clearance is ridiculous.
 
sr36 said:
You seem to be using very different standards for ruckman and mids. How many times over the last 5 years have Freo lost clearances and games with Nat Fyfe in the midfield. CB contests are 4 against 4. Around the ground are often 5 against 5. No one bloke is ever going to ever win the stoppage himself, unless the ruckman grabs it and bangs it forward which often has a negative outcome. Good ruckman give you an advantage which can be exploited or negated at ground level. Good mids win some and lose some.
The expectation that ruckman should totally decide who wins the clearance is ridiculous.
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That is not what i am saying.
So, my question is this:
Team A mids: Oliver, Petracca
Team B mids: Pendles, De Goey,

Each team has a choice of either (Grundy and slugger01), or (sr36 and Bont) to complete their midfield (assuming you aren't a gun ruckman..;))

My opinion is that whichever team takes you and Bont will be the better midfield to win clearances and the game.

Fyfe and Freo didn't win clearances, like you said, but Freo also had nobody else but Fyfe (they had Sandilands 4 or 5 years ago?).
 

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slugger01 said:
That is not what i am saying.
So, my question is this:
Team A mids: Oliver, Petracca
Team B mids: Pendles, De Goey,

Each team has a choice of either (Grundy and slugger01), or (sr36 and Bont) to complete their midfield (assuming you aren't a gun ruckman..;))

My opinion is that whichever team takes you and Bont will be the better midfield to win clearances and the game.

Fyfe and Freo didn't win clearances, like you said, but Freo also had nobody else but Fyfe (they had Sandilands 4 or 5 years ago?).
Click to expand...

If just looking at stoppage, I'd choose Nicnat over anyone in the league.

But overall Petracca or Oliver for me.

I'd have Grundy pretty high though - disposal lets him down.
 
So to get back on point - did we train today? Are McCreery and Daicos likely to make final 22?
 
sr36 said:
If just looking at stoppage, I'd choose Nicnat over anyone in the league.

But overall Petracca or Oliver for me.

I'd have Grundy pretty high though - disposal lets him down.
Click to expand...
That wasn't the question i was asking, but i think this discussion is in the wrong thread.
Apologies to Jen2310 for hijacking the thread...

Back to training.. Who trained with the A-Team?
 
jackcass said:
Pretty circular discussion but what we don't know is how much more impact the Bont might have working to a Gawn or Grundy level ruckman, or if Trac and Oliver would be having the same impact working to a De Koning or Burgess level ruckman?

IMHO in a perfect world you have your gun midfielders AND your gun ruckman so I'm not sure why it should be getting discussed as an either/or scenario.
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Imagine Gawn or Grundy with a midfield of Bont, Pendles, Adams and Macrae!
 
ClaytonM said:
Which is why you shouldn’t pay top dollar for them.
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Depends how you look at it.

I think the top mids have more effective and more damaging contributions than the top ruckmen do.

But the top ruckmen beat their opponent more consistently and by more than the top mids do.

So to me, the rucks probably play a bigger part in winning the arm wrestle, but the mids play a bigger part in putting that win on the scoreboard. Ideally you need both

I've got no idea which is more important to winning games of footy.
 
unplugged said:
They trained today, yes. Harvey said they both trained strongly and they'd confirm the team later this afternoon 🤷
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Whoever gets dropped for them is going to be a bit stiff after last week imo.
 
slugger01 said:
Righto... Ive seen games as far back as when we had Thommo dominating, P Moore dominating, yet we still didn't win GF's


We lost the 2018 GF, with our dominant ruckman Grundy. NicNat didn't play. We won hit-outs, and lost clearances. Simply, their mids killed us.

We lost the 2019 Prelim, with our dominant ruckman having 73!! Yes, 73 hitouts against Mummy, who had 5 kicks and 14 hitouts for the day.

Geelong smashed us senseless in last year's semi, with Stanley!!! Yes, Stanley up against Grundy. You think Dangerman, Duncan, Selwood and Guthrie didn't have a bearing in that match? Along with Hawkins?

You think we lost the 2002 GF to Brissy because we didn't have a ruck? How about these apples.. Their mids had hacks like Voss, S Black, Ackermanis, Power, and hack forwards in J Brown and A Lynch. We had Bucks and Burns, and Rocca.

2003 GF was the same.

The two games that Grundy didn't play this year, we won. Against an unbeaten Melbourne with Gawn, and Adelaide with O'Brien dominating with 27 HO and 19 disposals.

We lost to Carlton, with Grundy getting 26 hitouts, 16 disposals. Silvagni was up against him in the ruck after De Koning was injured, yet we still lost clearances???

Yes, we can all pick games to back our arguments and opinions.
Mine is that the ruck position has far less impact on the team performance than a midfielder. I say, you can dominate in the ruck, but if you have poor midfielders, you are worse off.
Conversely, a competent ruck, with gun midfielders will still be a better chance of winning a game.

:)
Click to expand...

For every example here there are 10 more where Ruckmen did the job and won the game. Would we have made finals or been as competitive without Moore and Thomo?
That we failed at the last hurdle, doesn’t detract from their contribution throughout the season.
Why did Leigh Mathews nurse Clark Keating through the season to ensure he was available to play finals?
Could Geel have won a flag in the last 10 years if they had a decent Ruckman?

Finally - Grundy is not a vanilla Ruckman and that’s why Mathews once said he was the most valuable player in the game.
 
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slugger01 said:
That wasn't the question i was asking, but i think this discussion is in the wrong thread.
Apologies to Jen2310 for hijacking the thread...

Back to training.. Who trained with the A-Team?
Click to expand...
Your question was rigged. I wouldn't want me in the team, whereas you don't get the name slugger unless you're a gun.
 
slugger01 said:
Righto... Ive seen games as far back as when we had Thommo dominating, P Moore dominating, yet we still didn't win GF's


We lost the 2018 GF, with our dominant ruckman Grundy. NicNat didn't play. We won hit-outs, and lost clearances. Simply, their mids killed us.

We lost the 2019 Prelim, with our dominant ruckman having 73!! Yes, 73 hitouts against Mummy, who had 5 kicks and 14 hitouts for the day.

Geelong smashed us senseless in last year's semi, with Stanley!!! Yes, Stanley up against Grundy. You think Dangerman, Duncan, Selwood and Guthrie didn't have a bearing in that match? Along with Hawkins?

You think we lost the 2002 GF to Brissy because we didn't have a ruck? How about these apples.. Their mids had hacks like Voss, S Black, Ackermanis, Power, and hack forwards in J Brown and A Lynch. We had Bucks and Burns, and Rocca.

2003 GF was the same.

The two games that Grundy didn't play this year, we won. Against an unbeaten Melbourne with Gawn, and Adelaide with O'Brien dominating with 27 HO and 19 disposals.

We lost to Carlton, with Grundy getting 26 hitouts, 16 disposals. Silvagni was up against him in the ruck after De Koning was injured, yet we still lost clearances???

Yes, we can all pick games to back our arguments and opinions.
Mine is that the ruck position has far less impact on the team performance than a midfielder. I say, you can dominate in the ruck, but if you have poor midfielders, you are worse off.
Conversely, a competent ruck, with gun midfielders will still be a better chance of winning a game.

:)
Click to expand...
Grundy is also another midfielder, he can run and carry, act as a link up but do the necessary around the ground. I think when we look at the Ruck option we must also look at what else they can deliver, it's not all about hit outs as opposition teams can play to your advantage (i.e Silvagni). In time Grundy will go forward a little more, he's adds more than just a pure Ruck.

When did we lose to Carlton, can't believe that happened.:eek:
 
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