Opinion Most overrated players from each team?

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gouki88 said:
The Norm Smith did not exist...

If that's all you hear about Matthews, I recommend reading more
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Norm Smith started in 1979 didn’t matthews player in like 3 GFs during this time? Had his chances and cooked it


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South of the Yarra said:
Dustin Martin is not fit to walk in Leigh Matthews shadow. Matthews is the greatest player to play our great game.
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Matthews said Dusty is the only player he doesn’t get insulted by when people compare other players to himself. Let that sink in buddy.


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Falcon3518 said:
Not saying he isn’t good or didn’t deserve being voted player of the 20th century but you have to admit he doesn’t have the awards you’d think he’d have to get that title. It is weird.


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Accolades are not the be-all and end-all. Matthews was also fairly often disqualified from awards that had 'fairest' in the title. Similar to Gary Ablett Sr.
 
gouki88 said:
Accolades are not the be-all and end-all. Matthews was also fairly often disqualified from awards that had 'fairest' in the title. Similar to Gary Ablett Sr.
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I could be mistaken but I don’t think there was a year where matthews got the most Brownlow votes but was ineligible to win. So not sure his on field behaviour had anything to do with why didn’t didn’t win one.

But anyway I think it’s pretty weird that the best player of the century wasn’t even the best player in a season. You can forgive forwards like GAS for not having one but matthews was a mid. I do think he is a touch overrated and I believe a few of the great mids in the AFL era have gone past him, but again I didn’t see him play live.


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Falcon3518 said:
I could be mistaken but I don’t think there was a year where matthews got the most Brownlow votes but was ineligible to win. So not sure his on field behaviour had anything to do with why didn’t didn’t win one.

But anyway I think it’s pretty weird that the best player of the century wasn’t even the best player in a season. You can forgive forwards like GAS for not having one but matthews was a mid. I do think he is a touch overrated and I believe a few of the great mids in the AFL era have gone past him, but again I didn’t see him play live.


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Sorry, that was me being tongue-in-cheek about the numerous less than stellar acts players like that have put on.

Nobody has gone past Lethal.
 
gouki88 said:
Sorry, that was me being tongue-in-cheek about the numerous less than stellar acts players like that have put on.

Nobody has gone past Lethal.
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Really? Fair enough. At a minimum I’m sure people would agree GAJ has.


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Falcon3518 said:
Really? Fair enough. At a minimum I’m sure people would agree GAJ has.


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I can't agree with that. Matthews won more B&F's, captained his side, won twice as many premierships, kicked almost twice as many goals in less games, was his club's leading goal kicker 6 times vs 3 for GAJ, Lethal won a Coleman, and was the best player on 3/4 of his flag teams.

GAJ, Buddy and Dusty have probably gone the closest in terms of pure match-winning ability, but I just can't concede.
 
Andrew Brayshaw for Freo, definitely.
 
Adelaide: Brodie Smith

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gouki88 said:
Accolades are not the be-all and end-all. Matthews was also fairly often disqualified from awards that had 'fairest' in the title. Similar to Gary Ablett Sr.
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1978 he averaged 25 disposals and 3 goals a game. He got 3 Brownlow votes for the year.

Imagine the reaction if something like that happened now
 

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hawkman said:
1978 he averaged 25 disposals and 3 goals a game. He got 3 Brownlow votes for the year.

Imagine the reaction if something like that happened now
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The year prior he kicked 91 goals and averaged 27 touches. 34 votes - sounds like plenty, until you realise the winner had 59, because it was that weird dual umpire voting system.
 
Mark Blicavs.
One of the worst finals players in recent times.
Up there with Gary Rohan who is not as endeared as the 2 x B&F winner.
 
Back One Out said:
Poor Harry Morrison must've jilted eth-dog 's sister to make it onto his list

The guy has literally never been rated by anyone. A c-grader at best who quietly does his role and improves a little with each season.

I'm not sure the Hawks have anyone who is currently overrated. Even our most likely candidates (Mitchell, Wingard, O'Meara) are regularly shiit-canned by everyone and never given any credit, even when they play well.

Maybe one of our defenders: Hardwick or Scrimshaw. Most Hawks fans think these guys are guns, but they're just average players in the AFL.
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It's interesting that you have identified the first two names that would spring to mind if I was asked to name Hawthorn's most underrated player - particularly Hardwick. Most footy fans don't even know who Blake Hardwick is and wouldn't be able to pick him out of a line up. He never even enters conversation when it comes to AA squads, etc and plays a position that is chronically underrated and devalued (lock down small defender) because we all get obsessed by the guys that play loose and pick up cheap stats (like Jake Lloyd, etc).

Last year, some were claiming Starcevich as a smoky for AA as they felt he was "the best lockdown small defender" in the game, even though Hardwick had been doing it to a higher level and for longer.

I'm not claiming he is a superstar - but overrated? most wouldn't even know who he is. He has finished top 2 in our B&F twice - which I think most would find surprising. Last season, he was nearly never beaten in pretty much the most under siege backline in the comp and still managed to average 21 disposals (@84%), 6 marks, 5 intercepts and 400 m gained from the back pocket playing a lockdown role.

Even in the weeks since you posted this, this has been Hardwick's games...

vs WB - Hardwick played a lockdown on the Dog's best small - Cody Weightman - who had been the match winner and BOG the week before with 5 goals. The Dogs dominated the middle with easy entries, kicking 120+ points, including 13 goals in a row. Weightman had 1 (clanger) handball for the entire game. That's right, no kicks, no scores, no effective possessions in easily the quietest game of his career thanks to the absolute shutdown from Hardwick.
vs GWS - Hardwick played on arguably the league's best small forward in Toby Greene. He kept Greene to 0 goals, 0 behinds and 0 assists. In fact, Greene went in to the game with the longest streak of consecutive games scoring at least 1 goal, going back over 2 years. Yet Hardwick had 7 spoils and kept Greene to no scoreboard impact whatsoever.
vs Adel - with Morris in the side and no real obvious small forward threats from the Crows, Hardwick played with some more freedom (but still had 0 goals kicked on him from any of his opponents). He also had 32 possessions, 8 marks and 4 tackles from the back pocket himself. He was the top ranked player on the ground (Champion Data) and received 7 coaches votes.
vs WC - Played on a few but mostly Liam Ryan. Ryan kicked 1 goal from a dodgy free from a "high tackle" (by somebody else). Hardwick had 22 disposals @86%, 5 intercepts and 400+ m gained from the back pocket.
vs North - Again no-one all that threatening but no one he played on kicked a goal (or even beat him in a one on one contest). He had 23 possessions (95% kicking efficiency), 9 intercepts, 7 marks, 450+ m gained and for the 3rd week in a row, more score involvements than his opponent, despite playing in the back pocket.

Am I trying to say he is a superstar? Absolutely not. But he would be one of the better (if not the best) lockdown small defenders in the game - capable of shutting down a variety of opponents and hurting you the other way. Yet most casual footy fans wouldn't even know who he is. Definitely not overrated IMO.
 
So I don't want to be 'that guy' that defends a player from my team without nominating any....and avoiding the most obvious candidates already named in Wingard and O'Meara (though Wingard really is the right nomination from Hawthorn simply because of what he is capable of at his best but only occasionally produces - especially since he has been pushed out of the middle)...

I will nominate a choice that will be unpopular (especially with fellow Hawkers) and suggest C. Jiath. Yes, he is super athletic and exciting to watch. He is fast and takes the game on. He can also intercept and "spoil from no-where", posing an attacking and defensive threat. He can do things most others are not capable of and is one of the better young talents in the game. However, knowing when to do what is still a (sometimes quite costly) problem for him. Sometimes he has an easy option or a player in space to give it to and instead he will try and take on 2-3 players by running through traffic. He also can leave his man at the wrong time and concede an easy score. He also has the tendency to put himself under pressure and then just bomb it long, often to the opposition. Last week, he got the ball on the last line of defence and just snapped it around the body to 40 m out, directly in front, straight to an unguarded opposition player, who duly goaled. He had about 3 better options (kick it toward the boundary in space, concede a behind, etc).

Commentators keep talking about how exciting and game breaking he is (which he is) but do so even when he chooses the wrong option and makes a costly error or concedes an unnecessary score. I'm sure he is instructed to take the game on (again, which he should) but still needs to improve his decision making and "vision" to ensure he is picking the right time to do it (not when you are surrounded by players and your team mates are streaming forward in space).
 
Guardian Hawk said:
So I don't just be 'that guy' that defends a player from my team without nominating any....and avoiding the most obvious candidates already named in Wingard and O'Meara (though Wingard really is the right nomination from Hawthorn simply because of what he is capable of at his best but only occasionally produces - especially since he has been pushed out of the middle)...

I will nominate an unpopular candidate and suggest C. Jiath. Yes, he is super athletic and exciting to watch. He is fast and takes the game on. He can also intercept and "spoil from no-where", posing an attacking and defensive threat. He can do things most others are not capable of and is one of the better young talents in the game. However, knowing when to do what is still a (sometimes quite costly) problem for him. Sometimes he has an easy option or a player in space to give it to and instead he will try and take on 2-3 players by running through traffic. He also can leave his man at the wrong time and concede an easy score. He also has the tendency to put himself under pressure and then just bomb it long, often to the opposition. Last week, he got the ball on the last line of defence and just snapped it around the body to 40 m out, directly in front, straight to an unguarded opposition player, who duly goaled. He had about 3 better options (kick it toward the boundary in space, concede a behind, etc).

Commentators keep talking about how exciting and game breaking he is (which he is) but do so even when he chooses the wrong option and makes a costly error or concedes an unnecessary score. I'm sure he is instructed to take the game on (again, which he should) but still needs to improve his decision making and "vision" to ensure he is picking the right time to do it (not when you are surrounded by players and your team mates are streaming forward in space).
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Agree with this. Most commentators would probably have him as our 2nd or 3rd best defender just because he is exciting when he gets it, when in reality on this season he would 6th or 7th
 
Falcon3518 said:
I could be mistaken but I don’t think there was a year where matthews got the most Brownlow votes but was ineligible to win. So not sure his on field behaviour had anything to do with why didn’t didn’t win one.

But anyway I think it’s pretty weird that the best player of the century wasn’t even the best player in a season. You can forgive forwards like GAS for not having one but matthews was a mid. I do think he is a touch overrated and I believe a few of the great mids in the AFL era have gone past him, but again I didn’t see him play live.


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I don't want to be rude but you are purely guessing (incorrectly) in your posts about Matthews. Firstly, he was considered the best player in the league in a large number of seasons - in fact for much of his career. The MVP award was in part brought in to help acknowledge players like him who were considered by all and sundry to be the best player in the league (especially by his peers) but who didn't win the Brownlow (often due the fairest part of the criteria). Despite it starting right at the end of his career, Matthews still won the inaugural MVP award, which was later renamed the Leigh Matthews trophy given its origin and the wide recognition he had of being the greatest player of his era (and for many, of all time).

In terms of the Brownlow, as has been pointed out, he didn't win one because of the all the games where he did things that meant he didn't fit the fairest part of the criteria. You say he didn't get the most votes in any year so it never cost him which is a complete misunderstanding of history. The criteria for awarding votes for any given game back in the day was for "fairest and best" players on the ground (with fairest notably first). In other words, if you were the best player on the field but the umpires felt you had not been the fairest, you wouldn't get votes for that game. This applied to many players in many games and only really changed in the 90's (with Greg Williams the last obviously impacted player after he went public about umpires costing him a Brownlow when he was clear BOG but was lippy towards the umps and got no votes). Despite the clear number of BOG's where Matthews didn't receive votes (usually cos he whacked someone - and let's be honest, he was very, very regularly BOG but just as regularly whacking people) he still ended his career as the 2nd highest vote getter of all time, a position he remained in until the 2000's when individual vote tallies exploded as umpires have increasingly felt the pressure to give votes to the "big name midfielders".

As for bringing up All Australian and NS medals- surely that's not serious? AA didn't start in its current format until nearly a decade after he retired. In his day, AA was picked from performances in the State of Origin Carnival only. Some players, including Matthews, did not always participate in this Carnival, even when selected. Furthermore, no team was picked between 1972 and 1979 - which incidentally was Matthews' peak. No team was picked in 1970 or 71 either. The only team selected between 1969 and 1979 was in 1972 - where Matthews was selected! Had sides been selected in his day, there is not a year between 1971 and 1981 where he would not have been selected. The AFL now recognises VFL team of the year selection from 1982 onwards as AA. Despite this being the twilight of Matthews career, he was still named in 1982 and 1983 - which likely wold have made abut 13 selections in a row had we had the system of today.

The NS was also introduced later in his career and the year after he was the obvious winner.

As has been said, he won 8 best and fairest in one of, if not the, strongest teams of all time. He won 3 in premiership years (has that ever been beaten?). He is in the AFL TOTC and is widely regarded as one of the best of all time. He was the best player in the league in the midfield and won a Coleman in his time spent resting forward. He kicked 91 goals another year, again playing as first rover! His possession average (in an era where 20 touches was a LOT!) was nearly the best in the league. Think about how good a year Dusty had in 2017 - and then imagine if he did the same but kicked 3 x as many goals as he managed - that was Lethal for nearly a decade.
 
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Falcon3518 said:
I could be mistaken but I don’t think there was a year where matthews got the most Brownlow votes but was ineligible to win. So not sure his on field behaviour had anything to do with why didn’t didn’t win one.

But anyway I think it’s pretty weird that the best player of the century wasn’t even the best player in a season. You can forgive forwards like GAS for not having one but matthews was a mid. I do think he is a touch overrated and I believe a few of the great mids in the AFL era have gone past him, but again I didn’t see him play live.


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Click to expand...

In that "player of the century list" the top 4 players named (which from memory were Lethal, Whitten, Ablett snr, Carey) never won a brownlow. Kevin Bartlett never won it either. A lot of ordinary players have won the brownlow. Doesn't make elevate them more than those mentioned above.
 
Stottzy said:
In that "player of the century list" the top 4 players named (which from memory were Lethal, Whitten, Ablett snr, Carey) never won a brownlow. Kevin Bartlett never won it either. A lot of ordinary players have won the brownlow. Doesn't make elevate them more than those mentioned above.
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GAS and Carey aren’t mids so that’s fine. Whitten and KB aren’t in GOAT discussions so it doesn’t matter. Just cause a few crappy players won a Brownlow doesn’t make the whole award useless. 90% of the time the decision is correct.


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Guardian Hawk said:
I don't want to be rude but you are purely guessing (incorrectly) in your posts about Matthews. Firstly, he was considered the best player in the league in a large number of seasons - in fact for much of his career. The MVP award was in part brought in to help acknowledge players like him who were considered by all and sundry to be the best player in the league (especially by his peers) but who didn't win the Brownlow (often due the fairest part of the criteria). Despite it starting right at the end of his career, Matthews still won the inaugural MVP award, which was later renamed the Leigh Matthews trophy given its origin and the wide recognition he had of being the greatest player of his era (and for many, of all time).

In terms of the Brownlow, as has been pointed out, he didn't win one because of the all the games where he did things that meant he didn't fit the fairest part of the criteria. You say he didn't get the most votes in any year so it never cost him which is a complete misunderstanding of history. The criteria for awarding votes for any given game back in the day was for "fairest and best" players on the ground (with fairest notably first). In other words, if you were the best player on the field but the umpires felt you had not been the fairest, you wouldn't get votes for that game. This applied to many players in many games and only really changed in the 90's (with Greg Williams the last obviously impacted player after he went public about umpires costing him a Brownlow when he was clear BOG but was lippy towards the umps and got no votes). Despite the clear number of BOG's where Matthews didn't receive votes (usually cos he whacked someone - and let's be honest, he was very, very regularly BOG but just as regularly whacking people) he still ended his career as the 2nd highest vote getter of all time, a position he remained in until the 2000's when individual vote tallies exploded as umpires have increasingly felt the pressure to give votes to the "big name midfielders".

As for bringing up All Australian and NS medals- surely that's not serious? AA didn't start in its current format until nearly a decade after he retired. In his day, AA was picked from performances in the State of Origin Carnival only. Some players, including Matthews, did not always participate in this Carnival, even when selected. Furthermore, no team was picked between 1972 and 1979 - which incidentally was Matthews' peak. No team was picked in 1970 or 71 either. The only team selected between 1969 and 1979 was in 1972 - where Matthews was selected! Had sides been selected in his day, there is not a year between 1971 and 1981 where he would not have been selected. The AFL now recognises VFL team of the year selection from 1982 onwards as AA. Despite this being the twilight of Matthews career, he was still named in 1982 and 1983 - which likely wold have made abut 13 selections in a row had we had the system of today.

The NS was also introduced later in his career and the year after he was the obvious winner.

As has been said, he won 8 best and fairest in one of, if not the, strongest teams of all time. He won 3 in premiership years (has that ever been beaten?). He is in the AFL TOTC and is widely regarded as one of the best of all time. He was the best player in the league in the midfield and won a Coleman in his time spent resting forward. He kicked 91 goals another year, again playing as first rover! His possession average (in an era where 20 touches was a LOT!) was nearly the best in the league. Think about how good a year Dusty had in 2017 - and then imagine if he did the same but kicked 3 x as many goals as he managed - that was Lethal for nearly a decade.
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Sorry but lethal played against plumbers mate, he was a 178cm 80kg midget and would get stomped on by professional 190cm 90kg + mids of today. The guy was a thug and knocked out anybody that was playing better than him on the day. GAJ, Judd, Dusty, Voss are all miles better it’s not close. If those guys played ‘rough’ against lethal he’d get paralysed.

I know your a hawks guy but cmon the amount of excuses you made for him not winning awards is amazing. So nobody got more than 1xAA back then yeah ok. He played in 3 GF when the norm Smith was around and didn’t win one, that’s poor for GOAT standards lol no excuses there he just wasn’t good enough. He got close to winning a Brownlow but he didn’t, umps didn’t have a problem giving votes to him. You are making it out like he was murdering people in the ground so he couldn’t get any votes.


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Progressive Aggresion said:
From Each Team:

Adelaide - Darcy Flogarty (Fatter & dirtier version of Taylor Walker. If he's supposed to be the future than I'd be concerned for their forward line)

Brisbane - Oscar McInerney (He's a solid ruck, but he's also outmatched by many others around the competition)

Carlton - Tom De Koning (Serviceable backup to Pittonet, decent marking target, but absolute shank at set shots)

Collingwood - Brayden Maynard (Other Collingwood defenders are surpassing him and his peak was never that amazing)

Essendon - Dyson Heppell (Has been living off of one elite level season for his entire career like Marc Murphy did. He shouldn't captain the side anymore)

Fremantle - Micheal Walters (His peak was inferior to Robbie Gray's peak, and outside of a couple of clever assists here and there he's become pretty run of the mill in recent times)

Geelong - Patrick Dangerfield (Like James Harden in a finals game, he's... there, but never at his best in the games that matter)

Gold Coast - David Swallow (A bit tough since he's one of their few committed veterans left intact, but he's also not much to write in home about)

GWS - Harry Himmelberg (Was lucky to play under Jeremy Cameron's shadow for most of his career, hasn't improved much coming out of it)

Hawthorn - Jaegar O'Meara (Career has been nothing but underwhelming since getting traded, Wingard fits a similar description too)

Melbourne - Luke Jackson (Yes, he's a rising star winner but he's had the luxury of Max Gawn's shadow, and only 16 goals in that season too. Certainly something to consider if Freo want to replace the Lobster with him and think that he's be able to provide the same amount of forward firepower)

Tasmania - Luke Davies-Uniacke (Or otherwise known as "A future Brownlow medallist" according to Gerard Healey)

Port Adelaide - Steven Motlop (Outside of one showdown matchwinner and two decent qualifying finals, he's been wasting a best 22 spot most of his time over here)

Richmond - Jason Castagna (Worst 3 time premiership player of all time. He's okay, but also never had a 30+ goal season)

St. Kilda - Jack Billings (Picked over Marcus Bontempelli in the 2013 draft!!!???)

Sydney - Logan McDonald (A bit stiff because of how young he is, but people seriously need to stop hyping him up as the next Buddy)

West Coast - Andrew Gaff (Meh, solid wingman and nothing more. Wasn't a premiership requirement that's for sure)

Footscray - Josh Dunkley (Lucky to be playing around far better on-ballers, in a crap team he'd be hopeless)
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I don't think anyone rates the big O very highly. He'd be one of the lesser starting ruckmen in the league.
 
Falcon3518 said:
Sorry but lethal played against plumbers mate, he was a 178cm 80kg midget and would get stomped on by professional 190cm 90kg + mids of today. The guy was a thug and knocked out anybody that was playing better than him on the day. GAJ, Judd, Dusty, Voss are all miles better it’s not close. If those guys played ‘rough’ against lethal he’d get paralysed.

I know your a hawks guy but cmon the amount of excuses you made for him not winning awards is amazing. So nobody got more than 1xAA back then yeah ok. He played in 3 GF when the norm Smith was around and didn’t win one, that’s poor for GOAT standards lol no excuses there he just wasn’t good enough. He got close to winning a Brownlow but he didn’t, umps didn’t have a problem giving votes to him. You are making it out like he was murdering people in the ground so he couldn’t get any votes.


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Click to expand...
same dimensions as lachie neale who has widely been considered as either the best or second best midfielder this year

seems to go alright against those bigger mids in todays game. dont see why matthews would fare any worse.

kind of an irrelevant point anyway. matthews was head and shoulders above the rest in his own time period in a way i dont really believe any player in the 21st century has quite accomplished. how good he was relative to his contemporaries should be the yardstick for mine
 
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