Win Prizes Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

[Gethelred]

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack.

As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them.

If you've still got a live question posted to a christian, feel free to continue conversing for the time being.

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Define "sin" without resorting to Christian terminology.

A sinner is a lawbreaker, going against set rules.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Underneath every Christian is a sinful broken person! Are Christian’s hypocrites? Absolutely. In fact the bible predicts this!
However just because Christian’s perform poorly, it does not reflect on God!

You hear a bad rendition of moonlight sonata, who do you blame? Beethoven or the ham fisted piano player?

Maybe I haven't explained my point of view properly. I'm not assigning blame to any deity here. By their very nature, a non-believer CANNOT blame that which exists outside belief! My issues with the far right all concern very human failings.

To blame the outsider when things get rough or resources get scarce - we have an intellect that should put us far above making such lowest-common-denominator conclusions. That some of us fail to use that intellect is an indictment.

We should be better as a species.

 

[Mr Sasquatch]

Maybe I haven't explained my point of view properly. I'm not assigning blame to any deity here. By their very nature, a non-believer CANNOT blame that which exists outside belief! My issues with the far right all concern very human failings.

To blame the outsider when things get rough or resources get scarce - we have an intellect that should put us far above making such lowest-common-denominator conclusions. That some of us fail to use that intellect is an indictment.

We should be better as a species.

How do you propose we do that?

 

[Roylion]

Probably the prose narrative parts yeah?

And which parts of those should we take literally? Seven days of creation? Garden of Eden? Tower of Babel? Global Flood? The patriarchs? Joseph? The Exodus? (Got any supporting evidence for the historicity of the Exodus to present for that yet?), Conquest of Canaan? Nativity? Resurrection and ascension of Jesus?

 

[Roylion]

But the definition of sin can pertain to anything that offends religious or moral law

Both are subjective.

I suppose any action that hurts other people or has significant negative outcomes is sin, anything reprehensible

Is human sacrifice reprehensible? Animal sacrifice? Abortion? Polygamy?

 

[Markfs]

Underneath every Christian is a sinful broken person! Are Christian’s hypocrites? Absolutely. In fact the bible predicts this!
However just because Christian’s perform poorly, it does not reflect on God!

You hear a bad rendition of moonlight sonata, who do you blame? Beethoven or the ham fisted piano player?

that is the best single post I've read in this thread

I must say that I agree with it too. I always thought that 99% of christians are either unwilling conscripts or two-faced hypocrits or something similar, but the actual jesus philosophy is pretty good. It's not jesus's fault that 99% of people who claim to follow him are either useless at the task or are deliberately deceptive.

I think open-minded atheists should acknowledge that...

 

[Vdubs]

I must say that I agree with it too. I always thought that 99% of christians are either unwilling conscripts or two-faced hypocrits or something similar, but the actual jesus philosophy is pretty good. It's not jesus's fault that 99% of people who claim to follow him are either useless at the task or are deliberately deceptive.

I think open-minded atheists should acknowledge that...

Let's not forget that those who follow Him are more broken than those who don't (even if only in their own minds)

 

[sataris]

there is no point to theology.

I disagree on this, Christian theology descends from classical Greek philosophy. Plato believed in a supreme god too, Christians just call theirs by a different name. Theology and philosophy are both just ways of thinking about creation, the meaning of life, morality, ontology, eschatology and all that good human condition stuff.

But to be fair a lot of Christian theological thought is demonstrably batshit insane. The early Church shitfights about the trinity must have taken biblical levels of drugs.

 

[Roylion]

I disagree on this,

You disagree with Thomas Paine. I merely quoted what he thought about theology.

Christian theology descends from classical Greek philosophy. Plato believed in a supreme god too, Christians just call theirs by a different name.

Theology is the study of God. In practice it involves the intellectual study of the assumed divine.

Critics of course argue what is the point of trying to study something that cannot be even proved exists, using texts that are dubious at best (perhaps out-right frauds at worst) and simply reinforcing the few remaining issues about the spiritual and natural world that have not been resolved by science. That was Thomas Paine's point.

Theology and philosophy are both just ways of thinking about creation, the meaning of life, morality, ontology, eschatology and all that good human condition stuff.

Theology and philosophy are related but are essentially different disciplines.

But to be fair a lot of Christian theological thought is demonstrably batshit insane. The early Church shitfights about the trinity must have taken biblical levels of drugs.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

[evolved2]

I must say that I agree with it too. I always thought that 99% of christians are either unwilling conscripts or two-faced hypocrits or something similar, but the actual jesus philosophy is pretty good. It's not jesus's fault that 99% of people who claim to follow him are either useless at the task or are deliberately deceptive.

I think open-minded atheists should acknowledge that...

Let's evaluate the philosophy of Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Mt 5:17-18

In the above passage, we see that Jesus approved the entire law and prophets, including genocide, rape and infanticide.

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Mt 10:34-37

Jesus came to destroy families and bring a sword.

"Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you." Mt11:20-22

Jesus condemned entire cities because they didn't accept his preaching.

“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ Mark4:11-12

Jesus spoke in parables to confuse people so they would be destined to an eternity in torment.

Most people living today have higher moral standards than Jesus did.

 

[Markfs]

Let's not forget that those who follow Him are more broken than those who don't (even if only in their own minds)

maybe broken in a different way but I tend to be positive about it all unlike the christian angle that seems to focus on the negatives all the time. It's interesting how footy teams are focussing more on what can be achieved and less on mistakes, and people seem to operate better in that kind of environment. But once again, jesus was very positive unlike the churches and christians who say that they follow him but gone the negative approach. I think that paul really didnt do a good job at translating the whole thing over to us gentiles.

 

[evolved2]

Underneath every Christian is a sinful broken person! Are Christian’s hypocrites? Absolutely. In fact the bible predicts this!
However just because Christian’s perform poorly, it does not reflect on God!

You hear a bad rendition of moonlight sonata, who do you blame? Beethoven or the ham fisted piano player?

Classic gaslighting.

If not for his own creation, what can god be judged on?

 

[Markfs]

Let's evaluate the philosophy of Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Mt 5:17-18

In the above passage, we see that Jesus approved the entire law and prophets, including genocide, rape and infanticide.

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Mt 10:34-37

Jesus came to destroy families and bring a sword.

"Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you." Mt11:20-22

Jesus condemned entire cities because they didn't accept his preaching.

“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ Mark4:11-12

Jesus spoke in parables to confuse people so they would be destined to an eternity in torment.

Most people living today have higher moral standards than Jesus did.

I dont know about you but I always question the intentions of the middle man who reports on something. Ironically, I just searched the background of someone who did a review on allmusic.com because I thought he was connected to the artist.....so in short, I question the people who reported Jesus's life 50 years after he died - or reportedly died. I certainly wouldn't forensically use the gospels to analyse jesus's philosophy. However, I will concede that he saw himself as a teacher of judiasm and he did respect the old ways which were based on notions of "eye for eye" etc, but the key point was that he wanted to bring an "eastern" flavour to its interpretation. The point that I was making is that most christians are caught up with living their lives as per the old testament and have forgotten any new information that jesus tried to add to it.

I think your last sentence is a entertaining piece of irony.

 

[Markfs]

To me, christianity is going nowhere but I'd like to cut down it's excesses. I want it to stop recruitment of the weak and poor. I think we should stop it from getting to the young before they have a chance to make up their own minds - even though I realise that this might impact on parental authority. I want it to stop trying to take over institutions like the Liberal Party so that it can impose it's view on the whole of society. I think these things and others are achievable but I have no wish to stop the dubs from hanging out with other christians and speaking in tongues. Some peope smoke dope and some go to churches - I'm not fussed.

 

[evolved2]

I dont know about you but I always question the intentions of the middle man who reports on something. Ironically, I just searched the background of someone who did a review on allmusic.com because I thought he was connected to the artist.....so in short, I question the people who reported Jesus's life 50 years after he died - or reportedly died. I certainly wouldn't forensically use the gospels to analyse jesus's philosophy. However, I will concede that he saw himself as a teacher of judiasm and he did respect the old ways which were based on notions of "eye for eye" etc, but the key point was that he wanted to bring an "eastern" flavour to its interpretation. The point that I was making is that most christians are caught up with living their lives as per the old testament and have forgotten any new information that jesus tried to add to it.

All we have are reports from middlemen. If you don't accept their validity, or at least argue on the basis of the gospels providing an accurate representation of a man called Jesus, what are you basing your depiction of Jesus on?

I think your last sentence is a entertaining piece of irony.

Why do you think that?

 

[evolved2]

To me, christianity is going nowhere but I'd like to cut down it's excesses. I want it to stop recruitment of the weak and poor.

How do you propose to do that?

I think we should stop it from getting to the young before they have a chance to make up their own minds - even though I realise that this might impact on parental authority.

Agreed. Parental authority wins for mine.

I want it to stop trying to take over institutions like the Liberal Party so that it can impose it's view on the whole of society.

That won't happen. Religions like Christianity and Islam function much like an invasive species.

I think these things and others are achievable but I have no wish to stop the dubs from hanging out with other christians and speaking in tongues. Some peope smoke dope and some go to churches - I'm not fussed.

Is anybody here trying to stop Vdubs from going to church?

 

[Markfs]

All we have are reports from middlemen. If you don't accept their validity, or at least argue on the basis of the gospels providing an accurate representation of a man called Jesus, what are you basing your depiction of Jesus on?

Why do you think that?

Because you're judging jesus on the writings of four blokes who were writing up to 70 years after jesus died.....most of it based on stories handed down orally. I dont understand how a person can say that they disbelieve the bible and then start quoting it as a reference.

I tend to look at the general trend. I wonder how Paul managed to repackage Jesus to make him acceptable to the authorities but also palatable to the general punter....and I think jesus struck a chord of positivity which Paul couldnt extinguish.

 

[Markfs]

How do you propose to do that?

Agreed. Parental authority wins for mine.

That won't happen. Religions like Christianity and Islam function much like an invasive species.

Is anybody here trying to stop Vdubs from going to church?

well i dont know why you and others are trying to tell the dubs that he is wrong.

Do you have long conversations telling pot smokers that they shouldnt smoke?

 

[Mr Sasquatch]

Let's evaluate the philosophy of Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Mt 5:17-18

In the above passage, we see that Jesus approved the entire law and prophets, including genocide, rape and infanticide.

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Mt 10:34-37

Jesus came to destroy families and bring a sword.

"Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you." Mt11:20-22

Jesus condemned entire cities because they didn't accept his preaching.

“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ Mark4:11-12

Jesus spoke in parables to confuse people so they would be destined to an eternity in torment.

Most people living today have higher moral standards than Jesus did.

Ah the great Theologian speaks

 

[Markfs]

How do you propose to do that?

Agreed. Parental authority wins for mine.

That won't happen. Religions like Christianity and Islam function much like an invasive species.

Is anybody here trying to stop Vdubs from going to church?

btw ....evolved...lol. You should read the adam eve thing about the sin of pride. You cant be an ex catholic if you're trying to get away with calling yourself evolved...

 

[Markfs]

People do bad mouth the old testament and it deserves it in many cases, but I tend to consider that its themes of justice for jews and 10 commandments might be seen as a step forward compared to some of the religions at the time. A lot of people look back 50 years and are shocked by what we said then... its easy to condemn things in the past. Not that I'm a supporter of the old testament and not that I dont see the contradiction of born agains being slave to old testament ways of doing things....

 

[Total Power]

But the definition of sin can pertain to anything that offends religious or moral law

So divorce outside of sexual immorality is sin, do you agree ? Jesus said it himself. Do you subscribe to this? if i vouch for womens rights am i sinning then? if i vouch for equal rights for homosexuals, am i sinning then? if the answer is no to the questions above, you are already admitting God's laws are outdated just like following any other gods are also a sin (like worship me only orelse...). But slavery isn't a sin, neither is discriminating against unbelievers.You are judging me based on my posts, how bad am i, for having a different opinion to you, yes sanctioned by the Bible. Remember, unbelievers should not be friends, you are already BREAKING god's laws.

However the SAME BIBLE asks you NOT TO JUDGE others!

It's a man made concept that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Another gift from that charlatan Paul to mankind. Sin is subjective, depending on the context of the event. Original Sin is not Biblical, Ezekiel confirms this, sin can't be passed from father to son.

 

[evolved2]

Ah the great Theologian speaks

I posted relevant bible verses to justify my pov. The floor is yours if you have a different interpretation.

 

[Markfs]

i wonder if paul wasn't satan in disguise. He did seem to "adjust" christianity to suit the requirements of the empire and play to the weaknesses of humans...

 

[evolved2]

btw ....evolved...lol. You should read the adam eve thing about the sin of pride. You cant be an ex catholic if you're trying to get away with calling yourself evolved...

I'm not an ex-Catholic. My religious past was in non-denominational churches for the most part.

What's your religious history?