NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[South of the Yarra]

I’ve been involved in many yarning circles over two decades. They serve many important purposes, but are inappropriate for testing serious allegations and should not have been the basis for claims made in the report or the ABC story. A person can have respect for Aboriginal culture and procedural integrity simultaneously.

You could not be further from the truth. In many parts of the Aboriginal world, Yarning Circles are the only way of testing serious allegations. You keep talking from a Non Aboriginal world.

 

[tassietime]

You could not be further from the truth. In many parts of the Aboriginal world, Yarning Circles are the only way of testing serious allegations. You keep talking from a Non Aboriginal world.

Unhelpful binary thinking such as this is at the core of the Hawthorn saga. And of course, in doing so, you’ve made assumptions about my ‘world’ that are fundamentally wrong, just like the allegations against Chris Fagan.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Unhelpful binary thinking such as this is at the core of the Hawthorn saga. And of course, in doing so, your assumption about my ‘world’ is fundamentally wrong, just like the allegations against Chris Fagan.

So you want to talk ‘fact’ then suddenly without any actual factual knowledge of what took place you suddenly say the allegations against Fagan are wrong. The core of the Hawthorn problem is allegations of racism. The thinking that is unhelpful is that if you understood Aboriginal people like you claim to, you would know that many have a distrust of system. This includes panels, courts, police, governments etc. A true yearning circle will bring the truth and fact far more readily than any systematic process will.

 

[tassietime]

So you want to talk ‘fact’ then suddenly without any actual factual knowledge of what took place you suddenly say the allegations against Fagan are wrong. The core of the Hawthorn problem is allegations of racism. The thinking that is unhelpful is that if you understood Aboriginal people like you claim to, you would know that many have a distrust of system. This includes panels, courts, police, governments etc. A true yearning circle will bring the truth and fact far more readily than any systematic process will.

Again, with the false binaries. For example, imagine trying to play high quality AFL without ‘systemic processes’. Or build a car. Or a house. Or get to the objective truth of a complex matter.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Again, with the false binaries. For example, imagine trying to play high quality AFL without ‘systemic processes’. Or build a car. Or a house. Or get to the objective truth of a complex matter.

Yes, a system of processes within the AFL that doesn’t cater for Aboriginal people. An AFL system that doesn’t support Aboriginal families. An AFL system that loses so many talented Aboriginal players because it refuses to change. Thank God some AFL clubs are moving away from these systems and have stopped failing Aboriginal people.

 

[peetoo]

Not to belittle those aspects, but round the world, elite athlete life and more tot he point development of kids into that life is far from balanced or psychologically healthy.

 

[the big lebowski]

Yes, a system of processes within the AFL that doesn’t cater for Aboriginal people. An AFL system that doesn’t support Aboriginal families. An AFL system that loses so many talented Aboriginal players because it refuses to change. Thank God some AFL clubs are moving away from these systems and have stopped failing Aboriginal people.

You make it sound pretty bad.

Over 10% of the comp are indigenous which seems a fantastic outcome compared to population.

 

[South of the Yarra]

You make it sound pretty bad.

Over 10% of the comp are indigenous which seems a fantastic outcome compared to population.

Yes and over the years how many of these players were racially abused, how many hurt, how many damaged. How many were neglected by a failed system?

 

[the big lebowski]

Yes and over the years how many of these players were racially abused, how many hurt, how many damaged. How many were neglected by a failed system?

Sure. But surely that holds true in society as a whole. The afl is a reflection of society, and whilst it made mistakes in the past its comfortably ahead of society is it not?

- over representation of indigenous professional athletes

- massive financial increase in income paid

- massive exposure to promote what the athlete wants to promote

- healthy lifestyle and crime reduction (for all AFL players FYI)

To be honest if you harbour such views about sins of the past it’s hard to see you proud to support Collingwood given their recent mistakes.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Sure. But surely that holds true in society as a whole. The afl is a reflection of society, and whilst it made mistakes in the past its comfortably ahead of society is it not?

- over representation of indigenous professional athletes

- massive financial increase in income paid

- massive exposure to promote what the athlete wants to promote

- healthy lifestyle and crime reduction (for all AFL players FYI)

To be honest if you harbour such views about sins of the past it’s hard to see you proud to support Collingwood given their recent mistakes.

To be honest anyone who accepts the views of the past in relation to what took place in the AFL in regards to racism against Aboriginal people should be ashamed. The damage done to many individuals was irreparable I clearly stated in a previous post that the AFL was improving in regards to the way they treat Aboriginal players. No I am not proud of my clubs past in relation to treatment of Aboriginal people, no club supporter should be, your club included. Your club has a shameful history of abuse of Aboriginal players and failing to protect your own players. Just like mine.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Heading out to Cummeragunja today for personal reasons and will drop into the old cemetery. This cemetery is littered with incredible Aboriginal people, many who took a stand against racism and stood up for Aboriginal rights. Some were early actors, sports stars and activists. One of the burials here that I will pay my respects to is Sir Douglas Nicholls. We all know of Sir Douglas Round. He led the way for many young Aboriginal players and was a standard bearer in his fight for Aboriginal rights. He experienced horrific racism on and off the field. He originally trained at Carlton and played a reserves game but was forced to leave because trainers refused to rub him, some players would not change with him and some officials refused to talk to him. If you are ever up over the border drop in to the cemetery for a visit (with permission from Elders). Students would have been taught lots about historical events such as Eureka Stockade but not many would know the importance of the Cummeragunja Walk Off.

​

 

[sr36]

Sure. But surely that holds true in society as a whole. The afl is a reflection of society, and whilst it made mistakes in the past its comfortably ahead of society is it not?

- over representation of indigenous professional athletes

- massive financial increase in income paid

- massive exposure to promote what the athlete wants to promote

- healthy lifestyle and crime reduction (for all AFL players FYI)

To be honest if you harbour such views about sins of the past it’s hard to see you proud to support Collingwood given their recent mistakes.

The attitudes were socially wide. But in other professions, racially abusing an Aboriginal worker to get him to lose focus on his job wasn't as beneficial, as encouraged or the norm like it was in the VFL. Racial abuse occured in other professions, but it wasn't usually as sustained or targetted with the aim of getting the bloke to emotionally disintegrate.

 

[the big lebowski]

The attitudes were socially wide. But in other professions, racially abusing an Aboriginal worker to get him to lose focus on his job wasn't as beneficial, as encouraged or the norm like it was in the VFL. Racial abuse occured in other professions, but it wasn't usually as sustained or targetted with the aim of getting the bloke to emotionally disintegrate.

Sure, it’s not like I said that racial abuse suffered by indigenous and other races within vfl/afl football wasn’t abhorrent. But the afl also seemed to adjust quickly and do its best to change old tired opinions throughout the 90’s. And now presents indigenous and other minorities a pathway for excellence and clout. The afl seems have also handled racial issues a lot better than some clubs over the last 30 years.

 

[sr36]

Sure, it’s not like I said that racial abuse suffered by indigenous and other races within vfl/afl football wasn’t abhorrent. But the afl also seemed to adjust quickly and do its best to change old tired opinions throughout the 90’s. And now presents indigenous and other minorities a pathway for excellence and clout. The afl seems have also handled racial issues a lot better than some clubs over the last 30 years.

I think the AFL is currently a progressive work environment, but it destroyed a lot of young men before it got where it currently is.

 

[Rob R]

Heading out to Cummeragunja today for personal reasons and will drop into the old cemetery. This cemetery is littered with incredible Aboriginal people, many who took a stand against racism and stood up for Aboriginal rights. Some were early actors, sports stars and activists. One of the burials here that I will pay my respects to is Sir Douglas Nicholls. We all know of Sir Douglas Round. He led the way for many young Aboriginal players and was a standard bearer in his fight for Aboriginal rights. He experienced horrific racism on and off the field. He originally trained at Carlton and played a reserves game but was forced to leave because trainers refused to rub him, some players would not change with him and some officials refused to talk to him. If you are ever up over the border drop in to the cemetery for a visit (with permission from Elders). Students would have been taught lots about historical events such as Eureka Stockade but not many would know the importance of the Cummeragunja Walk Off.

​

Thanks for raising the walk off, I had never heard of it and just looked it up.

Good on them for making a stand, I hope the speaker who led the walk off is recognised as he made a significant contribution.

I wonder if people realise that this helped enable our indigenous brothers to more easily serve in WW2 with some saving many lives such as in Crete (a story not well told unless you have studied our militaey history closely or watched the well intended but pretty poor portrayal of it on the Sullivans)

On SM-A125F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[the big lebowski]

Heading out to Cummeragunja today for personal reasons and will drop into the old cemetery. This cemetery is littered with incredible Aboriginal people, many who took a stand against racism and stood up for Aboriginal rights. Some were early actors, sports stars and activists. One of the burials here that I will pay my respects to is Sir Douglas Nicholls. We all know of Sir Douglas Round. He led the way for many young Aboriginal players and was a standard bearer in his fight for Aboriginal rights. He experienced horrific racism on and off the field. He originally trained at Carlton and played a reserves game but was forced to leave because trainers refused to rub him, some players would not change with him and some officials refused to talk to him. If you are ever up over the border drop in to the cemetery for a visit (with permission from Elders). Students would have been taught lots about historical events such as Eureka Stockade but not many would know the importance of the Cummeragunja Walk Off.

​

Hi South of the Yarra

I’m surprised no one has bumped this thread with the recent revelations that

• Clarkson
• Burt
• the Hawthorn Football Club

Recently unsuccessfully petitioned the HRC to throw out the hearing

Human Rights Commission rejects attempt to have Hawthorn racism claims dismissed

Three disgruntled ex-Hawthorn players and their past Indigenous club liaison officer have won their first legal battle over blocking attempts to dismiss the involvement of the football club in the pro...

nit.com.au

I don’t want to put words in your mouth but I perceived much of your anger and criticism from this issue to be directed at the 3 named coaches and less at the Hawthorn football club?

Is this accurate?

I can guess how you feel about Clarkson and Burt making such a petition, but I’m surprised you and many others in this thread haven’t said a word about Hawthorn trying to shut up the accusers.

Seems to me this puts the Hawks interests in line with the coaches and eliminates the line about “coaches going rogue”.

Thoughts?

 

[western royboy]

Where are the much vaunted “Defamation” Actions against Russell Jackson & the ABC?

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Where are the much vaunted “Defamation” Actions against Russell Jackson & the ABC?

Cold feet after what happened to Ben Roberts-Smith...

 

[South of the Yarra]

Hi South of the Yarra

I’m surprised no one has bumped this thread with the recent revelations that

• Clarkson
• Burt
• the Hawthorn Football Club

Recently unsuccessfully petitioned the HRC to throw out the hearing

Human Rights Commission rejects attempt to have Hawthorn racism claims dismissed

Three disgruntled ex-Hawthorn players and their past Indigenous club liaison officer have won their first legal battle over blocking attempts to dismiss the involvement of the football club in the pro...

nit.com.au

I don’t want to put words in your mouth but I perceived much of your anger and criticism from this issue to be directed at the 3 named coaches and less at the Hawthorn football club?

Is this accurate?

I can guess how you feel about Clarkson and Burt making such a petition, but I’m surprised you and many others in this thread haven’t said a word about Hawthorn trying to shut up the accusers.

Seems to me this puts the Hawks interests in line with the coaches and eliminates the line about “coaches going rogue”.

Thoughts?

You called me a racist in another thread for defending Aboriginal rights and then expect me to engage in civil conversation with you here. The strange thing was whilst I didn't always agree with you, I enjoyed our discussions. No more

 

[the big lebowski]

You called me a racist in another thread for defending Aboriginal rights and then expect me to engage in civil conversation with you here. The strange thing was whilst I didn't always agree with you, I enjoyed our discussions. No more

lol it’s human nature to be racist

Everyone is.

Me, you, everyone

Ps I didn’t call you racist for defending indigenous rights. I called you racist for the grandiose generalised sweeping statements you make based on race

 

[the big lebowski]

You called me a racist in another thread for defending Aboriginal rights and then expect me to engage in civil conversation with you here. The strange thing was whilst I didn't always agree with you, I enjoyed our discussions. No more

In addition it’s not really about me and you

I asked what you thought of hawthorns participation is the petition to close down the hrc hearing

 

[the big lebowski]

I’ll put it another way

- hawthorn were accused of racism

- they commissioned a report

- they were alerted to horrific allegations

- after a lengthy time of investigation they have petitioned for the accusers to be silenced

Am I missing something? I can’t believe there’s no outrage in here

 

[South of the Yarra]

lol it’s human nature to be racist

Everyone is.

Me, you, everyone

Ps I didn’t call you racist for defending indigenous rights. I called you racist for the grandiose generalised sweeping statements you make based on race

Show me one

 

[Rusty Brookes]

I’ll put it another way

- hawthorn were accused of racism

- they commissioned a report

- they were alerted to horrific allegations

- after a lengthy time of investigation they have petitioned for the accusers to be silenced

Am I missing something? I can’t believe there’s no outrage in here

No-one is being silenced. All the HRC can do is mediate between the two parties. Hawthorn already has an offer on the table for the players and my guess, would rather not have to go through a legal process only to arrive at the same place. However, the players want to have their say in a formal environment which is fair enough.

Human Rights Commission rejects attempt to have Hawthorn racism claims dismissed

Three disgruntled ex-Hawthorn players and their past Indigenous club liaison officer have won their first legal battle over blocking attempts to dismiss the involvement of the football club in the pro...

nit.com.au

 

[mcgrath_truther]

lol it’s human nature to be racist

Everyone is.

Me, you, everyone

Ps I didn’t call you racist for defending indigenous rights. I called you racist for the grandiose generalised sweeping statements you make based on race

it isn't human nature to be racist, soz m8