Analysis The Richmond dynasty

[Grockadoc]

No, I agree with you, I felt the same way. He’s too far ahead of himself. The surname has gone to his head and he needs to pull his head in.

I mean, as much as it comes off as arrogant, he is just answering the questions asked. He has been asked about Cyril every GF.

 

[Dipper]

Richmond losing Rance, whilst not quite to the same degree, has shades of Hawthorn losing Franko and still plucking out another couple of flags.

So that's a good show in itself.

Geelong got another after losing little Gaz too.

Gotta be real champs to lose players like that and still win flags.

On moto g(7) using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[BF Tiger]

Richmond losing Rance, whilst not quite to the same degree, has shades of Hawthorn losing Franko and still plucking out another couple of flags.

So that's a good show in itself.

Geelong got another after losing little Gaz too.

Gotta be real champs to lose players like that and still win flags.

On moto g(7) using BigFooty.com mobile app

The big difference between Hawthorn losing Franklin and Geelong losing Ablett to Richmond losing Rance is that both Geelong and Hawthorn freed up salary cap space to retain and attract players, while Rance's high-value contract has been on Richmond's books in both the 2019 season where he was injured and the 2020 season where he retired too early for it to be removed/used for other players.

 

[hk89]

The big difference between Hawthorn losing Franklin and Geelong losing Ablett to Richmond losing Rance is that both Geelong and Hawthorn freed up salary cap space to retain and attract players, while Rance's high-value contract has been on Richmond's books in both the 2019 season where he was injured and the 2020 season where he retired too early for it to be removed/used for other players.

I don't think that was the biggest difference. The big difference was that GAJ was 5 times MVP , 6 B/F and had 8 AA's versus Rance's 0 MVPs, 1 B/F and 5 AAs. Rance ia one of the best defenders this century, GAJ one of the best players ever. Buddy's 8 AAs not a bad haul either, but I guess if Rance had played on he may have caught up to Buddy and Ablett in that regard.

 

[Back One Out]

Richmond losing Rance, whilst not quite to the same degree, has shades of Hawthorn losing Franko and still plucking out another couple of flags.

So that's a good show in itself.

Geelong got another after losing little Gaz too.

Gotta be real champs to lose players like that and still win flags.

On moto g(7) using BigFooty.com mobile app

Brisbane lost Jarrod Molloy !!

 

[Back One Out]

4/5 is absolutely on.

Maybe...

I think people are underestimating how much of an advantage it was for the best sides of 2019 (Richmond and Geelong) to have a 2020 season where everyone's preparation and training was severely compromised. I'm surprised there hasn't been more comment about this.

Richmond and Geelong both have experienced, stable lineups who've played a lot of footy together with a predictable gameplan & method. That had to be in their favour in this COVID-19 season. Obviously, they were the two best sides again this year with 2 of the best coaches... and while Hardwick & Scott both lauded their teams' approach to this season in their post GF press conferences, it also goes without saying they were the best-equipped clubs to deal with the adversity.

I mean, think about it logically. Now it's all over, with the benefit of hindsight, was it really any surprise they contested this year's Grand Final?

Hardly ideal to have a 3 month interruption between Rounds 1 and 2 with clubs unable to train, players left to their own devices and total uncertainty about what lay ahead. Upon resumption of the season, teams had very limited training. I know for a fact this hindered my own club - not that we were going to stop Richmond or Geelong - but we had problems and there wasn't much Clarko could do from one week to the next. Other coaches would've had similar frustrations.

It was obvious to me from early August that the Tigers and Cats were rolling through the season just like they did last year. The Lions were good again, but not as scintillating as last season. They had a shitload of home games and kept winning, but didn't look as impressive to me as they did in 2019.

Port and St Kilda were the big improvers this year. Interestingly, both clubs have the simplest of gameplans under Hinkley and Ratten. That worked in their favour. All the other clubs would be really disappointed in how they played. Never really got going.

Sure, the Tigers will be hot favourites to 3peat in 2021, but I think they'll face much tougher opposition next year. From every club, I mean.
Lions, Saints, Pies, Eagles, Dogs, Giants, Dees and Blues will all be much better. It will be a tougher comp.

 

[This Is Anfield]

Thank **** Aussie Rules Football is a TEAM game..

 

[This Is Anfield]

I'm probably gonna get so much flak for this, but my view is...

Richmond considered a 'dynasty' is a bit of a stretch considering the quality of opposition they have come up against.

Geelong had to overcome a rampant powerhouse in Collingwood, a defensive-pressure machine in St Kilda, and an up and coming powerhouse in Hawthorn to win 3 premierships. It took them 5 years because there were some great teams back then!

Same with Hawthorn, the quality of opposition they had to deal with would make Richmond struggle.

Same with Brisbane. They had arguably one of *Essendon's best sides to deal with.

If the Tigers came up against one of St Kilda, Geelong, or Collingwood in one of 2009, 2010, or 2011, they would get reamed.

If the quality of opposition was similar to what it was back then, I would accept that the Tigers have been a fantastic side and deserve to be with one of the greats. But to say it beats teams like Geelong and Hawthorn back then and is up there with teams like Brisbane is an insult to those teams.

There are replays on YT that show exactly what I mean. Let me ask everyone this, that game between St Kilda and Geelong in Rd 14, 2009, how would Richmond of today go in that?

Leigh Matthews says we would have creamed them all... good enough for me.

 

[Bicko]

I mean, as much as it comes off as arrogant, he is just answering the questions asked. He has been asked about Cyril every GF.

I suppose, but still.

 

[Back One Out]

Thank **** Aussie Rules Football is a TEAM game..

You wouldn't know it by the way everyone is so obsessed with individual players and awards

Geelong: the best TEAM from 2007-2009
Hawthorn: the best TEAM from 2013-2015
Richmond: the best TEAM from 2017-2020

Thread is full of wankas comparing the star players from different eras and arguing about who were better. It's irrelevant! You might get a handful of moments of individual brilliance from the likes of Dusty, but games are won and lost by players working for each other. Not by individual heroics.

All three teams I listed above were utterly dominant because of the way they overwhelmed opponents in the TEAM aspects of footy. They had great individual talent, but so did some of their rivals.

 

[t_bond_legend]

Maybe...

I think people are underestimating how much of an advantage it was for the best sides of 2019 (Richmond and Geelong) to have a 2020 season where everyone's preparation and training was severely compromised. I'm surprised there hasn't been more comment about this.

Richmond and Geelong both have experienced, stable lineups who've played a lot of footy together with a predictable gameplan & method. That had to be in their favour in this COVID-19 season. Obviously, they were the two best sides again this year with 2 of the best coaches... and while Hardwick & Scott both lauded their teams' approach to this season in their post GF press conferences, it also goes without saying they were the best-equipped clubs to deal with the adversity.

I mean, think about it logically. Now it's all over, with the benefit of hindsight, was it really any surprise they contested this year's Grand Final?

Hardly ideal to have a 3 month interruption between Rounds 1 and 2 with clubs unable to train, players left to their own devices and total uncertainty about what lay ahead. Upon resumption of the season, teams had very limited training. I know for a fact this hindered my own club - not that we were going to stop Richmond or Geelong - but we had problems and there wasn't much Clarko could do from one week to the next. Other coaches would've had similar frustrations.

It was obvious to me from early August that the Tigers and Cats were rolling through the season just like they did last year. The Lions were good again, but not as scintillating as last season. They had a shitload of home games and kept winning, but didn't look as impressive to me as they did in 2019.

Port and St Kilda were the big improvers this year. Interestingly, both clubs have the simplest of gameplans under Hinkley and Ratten. That worked in their favour. All the other clubs would be really disappointed in how they played. Never really got going.

Sure, the Tigers will be hot favourites to 3peat in 2021, but I think they'll face much tougher opposition next year. From every club, I mean.
Lions, Saints, Pies, Eagles, Dogs, Giants, Dees and Blues will all be much better. It will be a tougher comp.

If anything, shortening the quarters hurt our game plan.
Nice try to discredit this season, but it's been the toughest no doubt.
Not being able to play in Victoria and also having key players out to injuries or not being able to make it to the hub for the majority of the season has definitely hampered us. Not to mention the COVID breaches and the distractions that brought on the playing group.
You talk about 'problems' your club had yet Richmond and Geelong are exempt from similar, if not the same problems because they the best coaches? Isn't Clarko a 4 time premiership coach? Your whole post reeks of contradiction.

 

[tigers_of_old_08]

Good team, but I would go with Jonno Brown ahead of A. Lynch and T. Lynch to full forward. Definitely Bolton in for McRae. Vlaustin would actually be a good in for team balance, but Ashcroft probably stays in for the quality of his career.

So that would be 11 out of 22, which in rough terms makes the teams fairly even. But, when it comes to building those teams... It's not even close. Brisbane were handed it all on a silver platter. They picked the best of the Fitzroy carcas.. They had extra room in the salary cap so they could keep players in a way that 2000 Essendon couldn't, which could well have been the difference between a 3-peat and only winning 2 flags. Compare that to Richmond building a team with draft picks and rookie list picks during an expansion era where GWS and GC were cleaning up the top end of the draft.

At the level of the club (not the team), Richmond's dynasty has been a greater achievement than Brisbane's by some order of magnitude.

The Brisbane Lions of that era was basically formed from an amalgamation of 2 teams, and made possible thanks to a generous salary cap.

And plenty of Lions supporters choose to be revisionists and deny the leg-up, but hey whatever helps them sleep at night.


TIGERS 2020 PREMIERSHIP CHAMPIONS

 

[TryAnHit]

Change the timeline....
Adel beat tigers GF.
Martin moved to Adelaide after 2017.. on 11M deal

 

[Wallaby]

You wouldn't know it by the way everyone is so obsessed with individual players and awards

Geelong: the best TEAM from 2007-2009
Hawthorn: the best TEAM from 2013-2015
Richmond: the best TEAM from 2017-2020

Thread is full of wankas comparing the star players from different eras and arguing about who were better. It's irrelevant! You might get a handful of moments of individual brilliance from the likes of Dusty, but games are won and lost by players working for each other. Not by individual heroics.

All three teams I listed above were utterly dominant because of the way they overwhelmed opponents in the TEAM aspects of footy. They had great individual talent, but so did some of their rivals.

Some of my favourite stats from recent times.

In 2017, Richmond finished the H&A season in 3rd place - winning half-a-game less than Geelong and Adelaide who finished Top.
Richmond finished 5th in team total Brownlow voting (even with Martin setting a record for most votes in a season).
In 2018, Richmond were finished 2 games clear on the top of the ladder after the H&A season. As a team, were awarded the 6th most Brownlow votes.
In 2019, Richmond won as many games as the teams above them (finished 3rd on %age only). 7th in Brownlow voting.
2020 - Finished 3rd on ladder. Finished 9th in Brownlow voting.

And - I'm really happy about that.

 

[nineteen eighty]

It was the most entertaining era, so it was the 'best' for fans, but not best in terms of what wins games of footy. After that Paul Roos won a flag with Sydney with the super defensive style in 05, and Ross Lyon then ramped it up even further. Unfortunately, it works. Richmond in 17 won because, asides from their talented players, they drafted guys with the best speed endurance (Rioli, Castagna, Bolton) who could make repeat sprint efforts to tackle and pressure. It's the same with other sports. Basketball was more fun to watch in the 80s and 90s, but current teams would annihiliate those teams because the analytics guys figured out that all you should really do, efficiency wise, is shoot 3s or shoot from 3 feet away, and never shoot mid range jump shots, which was Jordan's bread and butter in the late 90s.

Defensive pressure was fantastic from our small fleet of runners. Don't forget though that just prior to the finals and then throughout we were kicking 100 points per game.

 

[nineteen eighty]

You wouldn't know it by the way everyone is so obsessed with individual players and awards

Geelong: the best TEAM from 2007-2009
Hawthorn: the best TEAM from 2013-2015
Richmond: the best TEAM from 2017-2020

Thread is full of wankas comparing the star players from different eras and arguing about who were better. It's irrelevant! You might get a handful of moments of individual brilliance from the likes of Dusty, but games are won and lost by players working for each other. Not by individual heroics.

All three teams I listed above were utterly dominant because of the way they overwhelmed opponents in the TEAM aspects of footy. They had great individual talent, but so did some of their rivals.

Probably the best post in this thread.

 

[Partridge]

You wouldn't know it by the way everyone is so obsessed with individual players and awards

Geelong: the best TEAM from 2007-2009
Hawthorn: the best TEAM from 2013-2015
Richmond: the best TEAM from 2017-2020

Thread is full of wankas comparing the star players from different eras and arguing about who were better. It's irrelevant! You might get a handful of moments of individual brilliance from the likes of Dusty, but games are won and lost by players working for each other. Not by individual heroics.

All three teams I listed above were utterly dominant because of the way they overwhelmed opponents in the TEAM aspects of footy. They had great individual talent, but so did some of their rivals.

Don't you love how the language has changed too? Now individual players have actually won premierships? That was news to me but it's repeated endlessly so must be true.

 

[db26]

Who cares flags so hard to win I'm enjoying 3 in 4 years .

 

[Coach_Required]

Sure, the Tigers will be hot favourites to 3peat in 2021, but I think they'll face much tougher opposition next year. From every club, I mean.
Lions, Saints, Pies, Eagles, Dogs, Giants, Dees and Blues will all be much better. It will be a tougher comp.

This is a no brainer though, of course other teams are going to get better over time. Richmond have been the best team over the past 4 years so you would hope other teams would get stronger.

Same with those teams that have been up with us over the same period of time, West Coast, Giants, Pies are all going to find it tougher in 2021 as their lists have aged just like ours, we were the side who got the most out of our list and got the rewards.

 

[deskc]

The Richmond dynasty could go on for many years because they have one of the best tactical coaches of all time like clarkson

 

[Back One Out]

Some of my favourite stats from recent times.

In 2017, Richmond finished the H&A season in 3rd place - winning half-a-game less than Geelong and Adelaide who finished Top.
Richmond finished 5th in team total Brownlow voting (even with Martin setting a record for most votes in a season).
In 2018, Richmond were finished 2 games clear on the top of the ladder after the H&A season. As a team, were awarded the 6th most Brownlow votes.
In 2019, Richmond won as many games as the teams above them (finished 3rd on %age only). 7th in Brownlow voting.
2020 - Finished 3rd on ladder. Finished 9th in Brownlow voting.

And - I'm really happy about that.

Similar for the Hawks during our reign. Not quite as pronounced as those Richmond numbers, but so many games that we won comfortably with star opposition players getting 3 votes (or 2 opposition players receiving the 3 and 1). Except I wasn't as philosophic about it and happy like you. I remember being quite dirty about it at the time.

The other similarity between those Hawks and the current Richmond team was how the stats always showed how the opposition were supposedly "better" than us. Turnips like David King were always tipping against us in big games because the other teams were supposedly way superior to us in clearances, contested ball, etc... Their stats were full of s**t.

Champion Data also failed to adequately capture whatever it was the players were doing which translated into wins. Opposition teams and their stars always seemed to outscore their counterparts from our teams. I dunno. Both our teams were great at constantly moving the ball on quickly with taps to advantage. Not shown in the stats, but equal to or better than any "hard ball get". Or we'd have the same number of tackles as our opponents, but maybe we'd have more open field tackles which resulted in a turnover and a shot at goal.

 

[Back One Out]

This is a no brainer though, of course other teams are going to get better over time. Richmond have been the best team over the past 4 years so you would hope other teams would get stronger.

Sure, it's a no-brainer the opposition will be tougher next season, but you've taken that quote of mine out of context. I was suggesting Richmond might've faced tougher opposition from those clubs this year without the Covid interruption and restrictions on training.

There were a lot of disappointing teams this year who made no improvement or progression from last year. And it's no wonder when you look at the patched-together 2020 season with clubs not being able to train like they normally would. Geelong and Richmond also had these difficulties, but they were the 2 best sides of 2019 with strong, experienced lists and so it probably wasn't as much of a hindrance for them.

This seems like a fairly obvious, uncontroversial observation to make, but apparently Tigers fans won't entertain any thought which can be construed as taking away from their great victory. Apparently, we've gotta run with their narrative that the 2020 flag was the mightiest achievement in the history of world sport. It's not enough to win the flag these days. We've gotta add extra mayo.

Same with those teams that have been up with us over the same period of time, West Coast, Giants, Pies are all going to find it tougher in 2021 as their lists have aged just like ours, we were the side who got the most out of our list and got the rewards.

The Pies had a shocker of a season with injuries and absences

• Sidebottom bailed out on the season for personal reasons after missing a month due to suspension
• De Goey missed most of the year and was very ordinary on his return
• Treloar missed half the games through injury. Pendles missed a month
• Thomas, Phillips and Stephenson missed 5 games.
• Howe, Reid and Dunn were gone for the season

The Pies were pretty bad for most of the year. Treading water. They were 5-5 after Round 8 and those wins came against the bottom teams.
They lifted for the first final vs West Coast, but surrendered in their final vs Geelong

They'll be much better next year.


The Giants couldn't have been any worse. Their 2020 season may well be their Richmond 2016 or Geelong 2006 (i.e. perennial finals teams who crashed out of the Top 8, nearly got their coach sacked, but rebounded to win the flag.)

 

[RichLeMonde]

Sure, it's a no-brainer the opposition will be tougher next season, but you've taken that quote of mine out of context. I was saying Richmond might've faced tougher opposition from those clubs this year without the Covid interruption and restrictions on training.

I guess a covid season, with restricted training, might favour teams with settled systems, rather than those trying to learn new ones. But that mainly affects teams with new coaches trying to implement new systems - which tend to be teams in the bottom half of the ladder - not flag contenders. Even then, St Kilda were big improvers. Brisbane and Port seemed to do ok - hard to imagine them, or Geelong, doing better, relative to Richmond, without Covid. WC struggled, but they have a settled team and stable system, and experienced senior coach, so I don't see any reason why they would do better, relative to Richmond, without covid. Collingwood had a horrendous year but mainly with injuries, nothing to do with covid.

Can't remember what exact issues Brisbane/Geelong/Hawthorn faced, but I think a big part of why Richmond should be regarded as a great dynasty is the circumstances of their flags.

2017 - dream run with injuries but caught the comp on the hop with a strategic innovation, in terms of a mosquito fleet of guys drafted for their speed endurance, who could apply unbelievable pressure in the fwd half. Basically, we won the GF against a team who probably over their 22 had better players, but our guys played at or close to their best on the day, and our system was the difference.

2019 - detractors say stupid s**t like we finished with a run of games at the 'G. The reality is, Richmond were absolutely crippled by injury for much of the season, lost arguably their most valuable player for the season in round 1, played at the MCG once in 7 weeks in the middle part of the season, and had to win on the road against Port, Freo, GC, and beat Sydney and St Kilda at Marvel to stay in touch with the top 8, let alone the top 4, before round 15. People look at the GF or the run of games to finish the season and think it was all a foregone conclusion - Richmond won that premiership in round 4 against Port Adelaide in Adelaide with no Rance, no Dusty, no Cotchin, no Riewoldt, and other similar efforts. Even then, had to win a final in Brisbane to get it done.

2020 - covid - equal worst home ground draw, All Australian/ B&F winners Prestia, Houli, and Edwards missing for most of the season. 1st ruck lost to knee reco, lots of off field and on field * ups and constant scrutiny. After all that, played Brisbane in Brisbane and Port in Adelaide in finals on way to the flag.

All up, it's the circumstances of the entire seasons in which Richmond won their flags that make their dynasty one to celebrate.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Maybe...

I think people are underestimating how much of an advantage it was for the best sides of 2019 (Richmond and Geelong) to have a 2020 season where everyone's preparation and training was severely compromised. I'm surprised there hasn't been more comment about this.

Richmond and Geelong both have experienced, stable lineups who've played a lot of footy together with a predictable gameplan & method. That had to be in their favour in this COVID-19 season. Obviously, they were the two best sides again this year with 2 of the best coaches... and while Hardwick & Scott both lauded their teams' approach to this season in their post GF press conferences, it also goes without saying they were the best-equipped clubs to deal with the adversity.

I mean, think about it logically. Now it's all over, with the benefit of hindsight, was it really any surprise they contested this year's Grand Final?

Hardly ideal to have a 3 month interruption between Rounds 1 and 2 with clubs unable to train, players left to their own devices and total uncertainty about what lay ahead. Upon resumption of the season, teams had very limited training. I know for a fact this hindered my own club - not that we were going to stop Richmond or Geelong - but we had problems and there wasn't much Clarko could do from one week to the next. Other coaches would've had similar frustrations.

It was obvious to me from early August that the Tigers and Cats were rolling through the season just like they did last year. The Lions were good again, but not as scintillating as last season. They had a shitload of home games and kept winning, but didn't look as impressive to me as they did in 2019.

Port and St Kilda were the big improvers this year. Interestingly, both clubs have the simplest of gameplans under Hinkley and Ratten. That worked in their favour. All the other clubs would be really disappointed in how they played. Never really got going.

Sure, the Tigers will be hot favourites to 3peat in 2021, but I think they'll face much tougher opposition next year. From every club, I mean.
Lions, Saints, Pies, Eagles, Dogs, Giants, Dees and Blues will all be much better. It will be a tougher comp.

Interesting take. It might’ve helped at the season went on but certainly not early. Richmond looked ominous in round 1 but struggled and looked disinterested after the lock down. A 13 game win streak was broken by a pitiful 30-30 draw against the Pies followed by hidings from both the Hawks and Saints.

Dropping multiple games early puts a serious dent in top 4 aspirations in a shortened season. Richmond had to go 11-2 from there on to sneak into the top 4.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Interesting to note that the detractors that were very upset about Richmond having 9 straight games at the G to finish 2019 haven’t said much about Richmond having to play 16 straight games on the road to finish 2020.