Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

Hey all,

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[DangerHere]

With the bit of manpower and equipment advantage Russia has, the West has 3 options

1. Send troops in to match the meat wave advantage
2. Send equipment that beats Russian equipment so easily it mitigates the manpower advantage (AA, jets, long range missles etc etc)

If we can't do number 2, we will eventually have to do number 1. Might not be in Ukraine but maybe Moldova. Or Poland

Corrected above

Modern tech that the West has, makes the “Meat wave” a “Mince meat wave”.

 

[Zidane98]

You said BigFooty was down for server maintenance!

Imagine the extortion fee he had to pony up to the Russians that hacked bigfooty and held its data hostage! Would have rivalled the Optus blackmail haha

 

[Smeg Head]

I will add some personal thoughts to the whole Macron thing. Election due and he is losing in polling to right wing candidates I believe. Also no doubt there is some frustration at the failure of his diplomatic efforts before the invasion. And finally what France would have considered historically their colonial sphere of influence to lack a better phrase has of the last few years been overrun with Russian backed mercenaries which probably stings that French pride. So I do think it is posturing.

 

[Baldur]

Try using your brain.

Once NATO decides to attack, you're actually risking WWW3 and are opening Pandora's box. Sorry, but Ukraine isn't worth that.

Ukraine is not worth a nuclear holocaust. Which is why even if there was 100,000’s of western troops in Ukraine, Putin would not destroy Russia to gain Ukraine. Unless western armoured spearheads converge on Moscow, there will be no WW3.

This fear that Russia is some irrational bogeyman that we must not annoy least they destroy the world in a fit of pique is silly. Putin is just as rational as western leaders.

 

[sdfc]

Ukraine is not worth a nuclear holocaust. Which is why even if there was 100,000’s of western troops in Ukraine, Putin would not destroy Russia to gain Ukraine. Unless western armoured spearheads converge on Moscow, there will be no WW3.

I reckon there's a 95% chance you're right but not being clairvoyant I'd prefer it was off the table.

 

[Mobbs]

Get f'ed. To assume because I don't want there being an even bigger conflict in Europe means I am wanting people to die? No, that is ludicrous.

We can still support Ukraine financially, logistically and materially. But NATO countries actively declaring war on Russia and possibly triggering WW3? I hope calmer, rational heads prevail. Poland did not agree with Macron with sending troops either; are they giving the nod to wholesale murder too?

My reasoning is pretty simple and already explained: I don't want this conflict to spiral out of control. I do not agree sending armed forces to Ukraine for this very reason. That doesn't make me someone who green lights murder, you absolute berk.

You said Ukraine wasn't worth it. You don't want to rephrase this?

 

[Mobbs]

Am I mis-reading something or did Russia accidentally blow up one of their own supply ships? I'm looking for reports now.

 

[jatz14]

Yet you're not taking nuclear threats at face value, why wouldn't you chalk this up as an empty threat too?

You seem to be able to read Putin's mind, and know that if we will just give him Ukraine, he will be a happy content little pussy cat, and not raise any more trouble.

Thought I would give it a try too, except instead of reading his mind, I thought I would read the publications of his allies and advisors.

On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jatz14]

No country is worth the end of civilisation. I don't want to be involved in a war where many millions will die, and we should do everything in our power to prevent that from happening. This is why Poland and Germany took France aside and told them what it'd mean if they sent troops to Ukraine. They're not stupid.

Russia is not going to dismantle western Europe. They don't have the logistical capacity nor the manpower nor the competence to do so. This is not like pre-war Germany here. If you're so gung-ho about more death and destruction via direct involvement in joining the fight, then suit up and join as a mercenary.

Every country you give them, gives them the manpower and resources.

It's how empires work.

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[Jamolad]

I don't want to be involved in a war where many millions will die, and we should do everything in our power to prevent that from happening.

This is all great and I'd be all for it if every country felt that way too...but we live in a world where some will start a war for nefarious reasons knowing full-well that millions will die, with no care for what percentage of the slaughtered are their friend or foe.

So while there are dicks like Putin around, sometimes you have to begrudgingly fight a war started by some dickhead, because ultimately it is the lesser of 2 evils.

 

[jatz14]

I reckon there's a 95% chance you're right but not being clairvoyant I'd prefer it was off the table.

The only way it's 100% off the table is if Russia withdraws from Ukraine and ends all hostilities.


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[Jamolad]

I reckon there's a 95% chance you're right but not being clairvoyant I'd prefer it was off the table.

"Hope the Russians love their children too".

I'd like to think they do - an interesting observation though is many who side with Russia (whether they admit it or not, not sure why I mentioned that) seem to doubt Russia's love for their own kids and country; and think Russia are likely to go nuclear (literally) for no justifiable reason.

 

[sdfc]

The only way it's 100% off the table is if Russia withdraws from Ukraine and ends all hostilities.


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Ok General MacArthur.

 

[jatz14]

This is all great and I'd be all for it if every country felt that way too...but we live in a world where some will start a war for nefarious reasons knowing millions will die, with no care for what percentage of the slaughtered are friend or foe.

So while there are dicks like Putin around, sometimes you have to begrudgingly fight a war started by some dickhead, because ultimately it is the lesser of 2 evils.

It's nice saying you don't want to be involved in fights, but if someone starts punching you in the face, your in a fight, your just losing.

Putin knows and uses this.

Start a fight, say give me what I want to stop it.
if it works, there is no way he just does it once.

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[sdfc]

"Hope the Russians love their children too".

I'd like to think they do - an interesting observation though is many who side with Russia (whether they admit it or not, not sure why I mentioned that) seem to doubt Russia's love for their own kids and country.

I'm not siding with anyone. I just want peace.

 

[jatz14]

I'm not siding with anyone. I just want peace.

Your preferred method to do that is give Ukraine to Russia?

You must be a statesman.

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[Millky95]

It's nice saying you don't want to be involved in fights, but if someone starts punching you in the face, your in a fight, your just losing.

Putin knows and uses this.

Start a fight, say give me what I want to stop it.
if it works, there is no way he just does it once.

On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[sdfc]

Your preferred method to do that is give Ukraine to Russia?

You must be a statesman.

On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Russia is bogged down in Donbas they are not taking all of Ukraine.

 

[jatz14]

Ok General MacArthur.

I would have thought it obvious that if a nuclear power is in a war that isn't going well, then the possibility of the use of nukes isn't 0.

Ukraine can only end the war by surrendering, and Ukraine isn't doing that just for your peace of mind.

That leaves Russia. They can end the war by withdrawing and ceasing hostilities, and it's the only option to end the war that's open to them at the moment.

And here we are.

And I actually have no current plans for invading Japan.

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[jatz14]

Russia is bogged down in Donbas they are not taking all of Ukraine.

Not this time.

You think failure now sees them realising the error of their ways and foreswearing military force.

Or do you think it makes them realise their military isn't up to their ambitions, and they set about remedying that?

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[Visions]

Am I mis-reading something or did Russia accidentally blow up one of their own supply ships? I'm looking for reports now.

Are you referring to this? It was a fishing vessel, not a supply ship.

Imagine the uproar from the muppets in the Kremlin if Ukraine hit a civilian ship. Yet when they do it, they go to the playbook and do what they always do in situations when they * up monstrously like when they took out Korean and Malaysian airlines, cover it up!

 

[sdfc]

I would have thought it obvious that if a nuclear power is in a war that isn't going well, then the possibility of the use of nukes isn't 0.

I agree.

Ukraine can only end the war by surrendering, and Ukraine isn't doing that just for your peace of mind.

Not all wars end in surrender.

That leaves Russia. They can end the war by withdrawing and ceasing hostilities, and it's the only option to end the war that's open to them at the moment.

Relying on a Russian withdrawal doesn't seem much of a strategy

And here we are.

And the longer it goes the more people die.

And I actually have no current plans for invading Japan

Domino theory.

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[Visions]

And the longer it goes the more people die.

You think stopping the war tomorrow will stop people dying? Temporarily….maybe.

But what happens when Russia uses the lull to regroup back to full capacity and comes back even harder next time leading to more deaths than would happen now in their quest for the rest of Ukraine?

Or will you just shut your eyes then and pretend its not happening?

 

[DangerHere]

Russia is bogged down in Donbas they are not taking all of Ukraine.

Yeah like you know

 

[Thrawn]

Every country you give them, gives them the manpower and resources.

It's how empires work.

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This is not Civ 6. They still have to take Ukraine, they still have to consolidate... how long do you think they'll take, if at all?