Discussion 2020 General AFL Discussion
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- May 10, 2013
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They might give Ross Lyon an almighty godfather offer, who instead of training the guys will spend more time with Damien Barrett doing “The Coach” segments.
- May 10, 2013
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Wow! That’s so like an episode of “Days of our Lives” brought a tear to my eye, it was so, so, romantic.
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And yet after 5 rounds in 2019 under Richo (without Hannebery, Hill, Jones etc etc) we had more wins, were higher on the ladder, had scored more heavily and had a higher % than we are at the moment under Ratts.
CarnTheSAINTERS
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I see, but we played very easy opposition in those five rounds (hardest Essendon who came 8th). Melbourne, Gold Coast, hawthorn and Fremantle. We should comfortably win those matches nowadays. This time we have played Richmond (the premiers), Collingwood (prelim finalists) Bulldogs (finalists) north and Carlton. Last year we lost to almost all of them. Also last year with the longer matches, we were able to score more points hence the % and points scored.
gringo2011
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Gotta go with Thompson. he takes the job to pay his legal fees but then gets sacked after he is caught talking to players about 'investing' with him.
They move onto Ricciuto as head coach and do pretty well before sacking him and hiring Andrew McQualter.
pr0n-stache takes them to back to back Grand Final loses to the Saints and Suns before he leaves for a massive deal with Fremantle.
Preseason under Ratts.
We also had Juicy, Stuv and the Goat.
Maybe you could put this on the Melbourne board..
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gringo2011
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I'm no Richo basher but personally I don't think we were moving forward under Richo. At the start of 2018 he obviously identified the need to move from his swam back in numbers game plan. We started structuring in a tradition way with at least 3 full time forwards staying inside 50. We tried to get the defenders to play as a unit and the mids to set up where they were meant to. It turned to s**t quickly and we snapped back to the same plan that had kept us mid table for years.
We were jumped by every side under us apart from Carlton and GC under him. I believe because they practised a plan that would hurt short term but pay off longer term. It also stalled our development as kids really learnt not to lose but not play to what their qualities were. Richo was really under pressure to not go backwards much more than go forward. It was probably a board directive that ended up costing us a few years of progress.
Ratts is much more of a skills and structure over 100% effort 100% of the time type. His ability to make everything a positive and back players in with their skills even if it hurts in the now is evident in Steele. He tagged last week but he's been released most weeks so that he's had to learn not to rely on his man to lead him to the ball. He's actually blossomed....I was his biggest critic. when he didn't panic and drop Steele on to Cunnington round one. He backed his man and now is getting a player who was a solid B grader turning into an A grade consistant tall mid.
Rats has made a few calls that haven't worked out but he's learning and adapting. I have absolute faith that even if we don't play finals this year, we will soon because we are now in a cycle of planning to improve rather than hoping not to lose to hold our head above water. We are sorting our list out in a brutal fashion and have nearly turned over a full list in 4 years.
I expect guys like Webster, Savage, Dunstan and Roberton are now depth and we will see him develop a youth lead revival and some how we seem to be holding position with a new side and new direction. Lethlean probably needs to get the credit, I am over the messiah complex but he's probably the most competent administrator we've ever had. His appointments have been great too.
Damaged goods, and culture problems.
Rossy would not be on any club's radar, and for good reason. .
Suggested nothing.
I listed the issues Melbourne people had said is a problem.
I noted the similarity, and noted the assistant coach now there.
Later on I said Goodwin was responsible.
Narkles Helmet got what I was on about, obviously wasn't clear enough.
He is not the man for the job or even assist when he has clearly failed in the past is the suggestion.
If you want to still staunchly defend Richo, thats up to you.
George
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Reimagine Moorabbin
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Why no mention of the shortened quarters in 2020?
51 extra points in the proper length game is not very impressive.
Our 112% in 2020 is more impressive than 115% in 2019 as well, given the shortened game and the reduced chance of blowouts.
And by Round 16 he was gone.
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Yeah mentioning the additional scoring without referencing the shorter quarters is clearly a mistake on my behalf. All other points are valid though.
However its curious that people picked up the additional scoring but then neglected to consider the scores against factor.
% is the relationship between points for and points against - that's it. Qtrs are now 16 min which is a 20% reduction on last years games so you'd expect a commensurate drop in scoring both for and against.
So while its great that we are averaging 5 points a game extra in scores this year (taking into account the shortened qtrs), its not so great that we are allowing the opposition to score 6 points more a game than we did last year - and that's in a year when overall scoring rates have gone down substantially.
Anyway back to point in question - last year we were sitting second, Richo was looking good and the eventual premiers were well outside the eight.
However its curious that people picked up the additional scoring but then neglected to consider the scores against factor.
% is the relationship between points for and points against - that's it. Qtrs are now 16 min which is a 20% reduction on last years games so you'd expect a commensurate drop in scoring both for and against.
So while its great that we are averaging 5 points a game extra in scores this year (taking into account the shortened qtrs), its not so great that we are allowing the opposition to score 6 points more a game than we did last year - and that's in a year when overall scoring rates have gone down substantially.
Anyway back to point in question - last year we were sitting second, Richo was looking good and the eventual premiers were well outside the eight.
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People aren’t seriously advocating for Richo? I liked the man, but he was a failure as a coach. One of the worst ever, win percentage wise?
Oh well, we’ve got what looks to be a good - could be great - one now
Oh well, we’ve got what looks to be a good - could be great - one now
- Oct 18, 2011
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Too true - certainly hoping its different this time but we are Saints fans so you never know what might happen.
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I couldn't help but check out the round 5 autopsy thread from last year.
A good reminder not to go too early.
But who am I kidding the lid was off after butler snagged the danger goal last week.
StCicatriz
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just keep your major sponsor's employees away from the club
Umm I would suggest you have a watch then mate. Workrate and contest (to borrow some Richo era jargon) is the least of their problems.
Last week they were +1 for clearances & +4 for I50 yet lost by 5 goals to a 19 man Richmond. Their efficiency I50 was 32%
Week before +9 for clearances & +8 for I50 and lost to Geelong. Their efficiency I50 was 32%
Last thing Melbourne need is to be 'stronger in the contest.' Their ball movement last week would give any Saints fan flashbacks to the last 5 years. Long slow kicks down the line to 2v5 contests because every player is required to play 'team defence'. When they do get it forward their players (Oliver, Viney, Petracca, Brashaw, Vandenberg, Tomlinson etc) just don't have the footskills to actually hit targets.
Their over-reliance on contested ball IS their problem. More importantly, they are then doing TOO MUCH defensive running, and their mids (who have questionable skills anyway) are simply too gassed to use the ball effectively when they do get the chance. Its not that they are too slow or not skilled enough. They are running far too much defensively and are buggered. Much like the cycle we were stuck in, more hard work just makes their already existing problems worse. Their game-style is 10+ years out of date and they need to work smarter, not harder.
Now I have no doubt these issues predated Richo. But as Narkles said repeatedly above, Richo was possibly the single worst appointment they could have made given their already existing problems. Richo didn't cause their current issues, but all evidence would suggest he has 0 idea how to fix them (and given what we saw with Ratts last year, may actively push back against suggestions that might actually fix their issues). He will likely just make them worse.
If they keep playing that gamestyle, I wonder if we could sell them a Ross / Savage / McKenzie package deal at the end of the year for pick 2?*
*before everyone jumps in, that is a joke!
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Even if it's after I'm dead and buried, we need to win another flag before the Dees do. To that end, I wish no end of bad luck and decision making upon them.View attachment 907406
Is there a sweeter sight than this. Imaging tanking to get picks and then when you have a super draft you trade out your first pick
Having said that, if they'd taken Bing, we might have ended up with him much sooner than it looks like we will. You know. Richo.
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Following up on Enclosed Animal’s excellent post on Melbourne, did anyone watch On the Couch last night? It can be hit-and-miss with its analysis but what they said about Melbourne was spot-on.
They were talking about how they play at too high an intensity, with a “red-mist” all the time making it nearly impossible to assess options, make decisions and execute skills.
It’s EXACTLY the sort of thing many of us were talking about for years under Richo (am not blaming Richo for Melbourne). What our team lacked, more than anything, was composure. Composure is one of Clarko’s favourite attributes to talk about that a young player needs to work on.
While Melbourne got to a prelim playing this “full throttle” style (because they had a bunch a competitive beast inside mids in form and a game plan of bombing men from the bounce off half back before the 6-6-6 rule scuppered their plans), we at the Saints could only settle for mid-ladder mediocrity and the odd shock win as we didn’t have enough good inside mids to win the ball. A poor plan for our team that looks even worse looking back now.
The big difference you can see straight away with our team and the addition of new coaches (I have a hunch Roughy, due to his work with the forwards and his lead role on the bench, is the main one here) is how good our forward 50 entries are. We are so much more composed. We are assessing options and, usually, taking the right one that gives us the best chance to convert. It’s amazing how quickly our players have adapted to quality coaching. It is a joy to watch and you’d think it will only get better.
Watching Melbourne at the moment is a reminder how frustrating it is as a fan seeing your players run around like headless chooks and butcher opportunities completely. Yes, they work hard but footy is so much more than hard work. Coaches have a duty to teach players not simply to run and tackle but to have the courage to remain composed, assess their options, and have the confidence to execute skills under pressure, knowing they could fail.
At the Saints, we finally have coaches with the right mindset and it couldn’t come quick enough for the supporters and, especially, the young players on our list who had picked up so many poor habits from the previous coaching regime.
They were talking about how they play at too high an intensity, with a “red-mist” all the time making it nearly impossible to assess options, make decisions and execute skills.
It’s EXACTLY the sort of thing many of us were talking about for years under Richo (am not blaming Richo for Melbourne). What our team lacked, more than anything, was composure. Composure is one of Clarko’s favourite attributes to talk about that a young player needs to work on.
While Melbourne got to a prelim playing this “full throttle” style (because they had a bunch a competitive beast inside mids in form and a game plan of bombing men from the bounce off half back before the 6-6-6 rule scuppered their plans), we at the Saints could only settle for mid-ladder mediocrity and the odd shock win as we didn’t have enough good inside mids to win the ball. A poor plan for our team that looks even worse looking back now.
The big difference you can see straight away with our team and the addition of new coaches (I have a hunch Roughy, due to his work with the forwards and his lead role on the bench, is the main one here) is how good our forward 50 entries are. We are so much more composed. We are assessing options and, usually, taking the right one that gives us the best chance to convert. It’s amazing how quickly our players have adapted to quality coaching. It is a joy to watch and you’d think it will only get better.
Watching Melbourne at the moment is a reminder how frustrating it is as a fan seeing your players run around like headless chooks and butcher opportunities completely. Yes, they work hard but footy is so much more than hard work. Coaches have a duty to teach players not simply to run and tackle but to have the courage to remain composed, assess their options, and have the confidence to execute skills under pressure, knowing they could fail.
At the Saints, we finally have coaches with the right mindset and it couldn’t come quick enough for the supporters and, especially, the young players on our list who had picked up so many poor habits from the previous coaching regime.
Couldn't agree more with your assessment. Watching Melbourne Sunday had all the same frustrations that came with watching us recently. It was eerily similar.
The only thing I would add to the great post above, is that some really key personnel have changed at Melbourne in the last 24 months.
Roos has left the coaching box, and since 2018 they retired Vince and Lewis. They have also dropped N.Jones in the last few weeks. Gawn, May, Goodwin & Richo is just a massive downgrade in on-field leadership and teaching ability.
Look at us now with Hanners on the park, Roughy on the bench and players like Butler and Z.Jones from successful systems. But even after 2 consecutive wins Ratts is 'complaining' that we couldn't settle our ball movement, and noting that we need to mature and learn when to do what. All I hear from Melbourne is the same crap about rolling up our sleeves, hard work, effort and defending as a unit.
That said, IMO the most important and underacknowledged change at Melbourne has been the loss of Jessie Hogan. I know it has became popular to focus on culture and off field influence, but I think a lot of people have forgotten that the guy was a young 50+ goal a year superstar (even with his 'issues'). Melbourne's gameplan worked because Hogan could carry the fwd line. Tom McDonald was then the second banana (not playing a lone hand against the best defender), and Petrecca was still playing forward 90% of the time (and not cutting Olivers lunch in the midfield, who coincidentally now looks second rate).
Part of why Richo's 'defence first' gameplan lasted so long is he had Roo. After Roo retired at the end of 17 people sat up and realised that gamestyle sucked. Without Hogan, Melbourne have gone off the same cliff. Tom McDonald is just another version of Bruce (who was just never as good without Roo as the main target). With a superstar FF and a serviceable 2IC (Bruce / TMac), a gameplan based on contested ball and workrate can succeed to a degree. But take out that superstar, and a finals calibre team becomes a bottom 4 mess.
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- Aug 30, 2017
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People aren’t seriously advocating for Richo? I liked the man, but he was a failure as a coach. One of the worst ever, win percentage wise?
Oh well, we’ve got what looks to be a good - could be great - one now
Statistically one of the worst AFL/VFL coaches in history. Watson, Neeld, Watters, etc better coaches.
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