Training 2023 Mens Preseason Thread

[andleanback]

If time trials meant anything Stanton would have won a Brownlow!

Seems like an outdated measure to me. Only for the preseason fluff.

Guess it’s okay if all our mids just clock 8 minute 2kers then. Definitely doesn’t affect the team at all having a midfield group that doesn’t have good aerobic capacity.

 

[owen87]

Guess it’s okay if all our mids just clock 8 minute 2kers then. Definitely doesn’t affect the team at all having a midfield group that doesn’t have good aerobic capacity.

Does our midfield group not have AFL standard aerobic capacity?

Shiel, Parish, Merrett are our best three midfielders and all have sufficient tanks to rack up 30+ when they want.

They choose not to run defensively. It's not that they don't have the tank to do it.

 

[Mercurial89]

It would be interesting if clubs published times to give some perspective as to how fast players are, from memory Perkins and Reid were both mid 6 mins over 2km at the combine which is ~ 3:15 / km pace which is actually very fast. Cox was close to 6:00 or 3:00 / km.

Most guys coming through the system have ok - good tanks, for Tsatas it's never been noted that he's got a bad tank (like Francis was known to have) so I don't have any real doubts about whether with a clear injury run he'll be up to AFL standard midfield running.

I think it would be an interesting thing to see if physical/fitness data was available to general public would there be a bit more respect given to the type of shape these guys are in. Might reign in some of the criticisms that get leveled at players by the largely uneducated public.

Might assist with some of the mental health issues present in the game if people toned down the criticism based on fitness.

 

[andleanback]

Does our midfield group not have AFL standard aerobic capacity?

Shiel, Parish, Merrett are our best three midfielders and all have sufficient tanks to rack up 30+ when they want.

They choose not to run defensively. It's not that they don't have the tank to do it.

It’s fair to say all 3 do not cover the ground that well and would classified as average runners. It’s a common theme those who don’t like to run defensively also don’t have great tanks. Who are our players that like to run defensively - Durham, langford Snelling, Martin. Oh what do you know all 4 are up there as our best runners.

 

[owen87]

It’s fair to say all 3 do not cover the ground that well and would classified as average runners. It’s a common theme those who don’t like to run defensively also don’t have great tanks. Who are our players that like to run defensively - Durham, langford Snelling, Martin. Oh what do you know all 4 are up there as our best runners.

If Parish had the tank of Tom Scully he still wouldn't run defensively. It's not a conditioning problem.

If these guys can go out and run well enough to rack up 30 or 40 possessions it's not their tank holding them back from running both ways.

You also named guys playing the wing position as having the best tanks.... which is pretty much the point of guys who play in that position.

 

[andleanback]

If Parish had the tank of Tom Scully he still wouldn't run defensively. It's not a conditioning problem.

If these guys can go out and run well enough to rack up 30 or 40 possessions it's not their tank holding them back from running both ways.

You also named guys playing the wing position as having the best tanks.... which is pretty much the point of guys who play in that position.

Well you don’t know that, often players with s**t tanks choose not to run defensively so they’ve got more energy to run forward when we’ve got the ball, see Dustin Martin, Fyfe etc etc. Langford wasn’t drafted as a wing, neither was Snelling.

 

[yodellinhank]

(what leadership?)

Genuine carry-on from a lot of people – are you going to tell your kids or wife to stop smiling and laughing?

 

[owen87]

Well you don’t know that, often players with s**t tanks choose not to run defensively so they’ve got more energy to run forward when we’ve got the ball, see Dustin Martin, Fyfe etc etc. Langford wasn’t drafted as a wing, neither was Snelling.

Martin also doesn't have a s**t tank. He would have an average tank, with the ability to be sufficiently damaging ball-in-hand that it's better he spends his efforts on doing that than running hard defensively.

Parish, Merrett and Shiel would all have AFL average midfield tanks, their running power isn't a hallmark of their game nor is it a limitation of it. Average tank in this context does not mean they're clicking off 8 mins for 2km, that would give them a poor tank for an AFL player.

Snelling doesn't play wing, he plays an outnumber role off a HFF because he's a midfielder being played out of position that has a very high level of defensive work-rate.

Langford was drafted as a half-forward who might be able to play as a midfielder, which he couldn't do to a high standard at AFL level but can play a high half-forward or wing rotation.

Also a good 2km time doesn't necessarily translate all that well to AFL performance.

Andrew Brayshaw is noted as very strong two-way running midfielder and clocked 6:14 for the 2km in his draft year.

The same year Jayden Stephenson who's noted as a very one-directional running player clocked 6:21.

Does 7 seconds over 2km really dictate whether Stephenson can or can't run defensively?

 

[Duckworth]

Genuine carry-on from a lot of people – are you going to tell your kids or wife to stop smiling and laughing?

Because telling your kids to stop smiling is exactly the same thing...

 

[MiguelM]

Guess it’s okay if all our mids just clock 8 minute 2kers then. Definitely doesn’t affect the team at all having a midfield group that doesn’t have good aerobic capacity.

What I am getting at is it really doesn't mean anything in terms of how you perform. AFL is repeated endurance efforts mixed with short bursts.

It is how you recover for the next effort IMO.

 

[fairbump_playon]

What I am getting at is it really doesn't mean anything in terms of how you perform. AFL is repeated endurance efforts mixed with short bursts.

It is how you recover for the next effort IMO.

Key question is what is the correlation btw 2km performance vs game specific running.

I would guess high but not very high. That's debatable but it's certainly more than "doesn't really mean anything".

 

[BrunoV]

I've been waiting for Redman to show something in the time trials. As I understand, he is a really good endurance runner.

I remember reading something about him running while his dad kept pace driving a car (something along those line).

He has hardly had a decent pre-season to this point, believe it or not. I think he has gotten to the line having done everything maybe once.

I reckon we're already in the lag period during which it takes the industry to realise he is one of the best half backs in the game. I dont think that will hold much longer.

I will sleep with a half full bowl of water under my bed for the next 12 month, to overcome any curse I just put on him, so get on Redman for AA, bnfs, etc.

 

[BrunoV]

If time trials meant anything Stanton would have won a Brownlow!

Seems like an outdated measure to me. Only for the preseason fluff.

Good lord.

Geelong, Richmond dynasty, GWS (strong era), Hawthorn 3-peat, Melbourne 2021, Collingwood 2018 to now and currrent Fremantle off the top of my head are loaded with time triallers.

The time trial was reduced to 2km to recreate the running time between rotations (3km as it used to be was too long).

Yes, there are repeat sprinters but there aren't a stack of guys dominating games with repeat sprint efforts who are not also 6:30 territory which is a good AFL time certainly nothing to write home about. It should only be winning trials because players are cooked and recovering from other gruelling sessions.

The good runners probably start at 6:15.

 

[Keystone agony]

Does our midfield group not have AFL standard aerobic capacity?

Shiel, Parish, Merrett are our best three midfielders and all have sufficient tanks to rack up 30+ when they want.

They choose not to run defensively. It's not that they don't have the tank to do it.

All 3 would be below avg

 

[owen87]

All 3 would be below avg

Who would you define as 'average' for a midfielder?

 

[Keystone agony]

Who would you define as 'average' for a midfielder?

Something around the 6:45 mark for 2km

 

[owen87]

Something around the 6:45 mark for 2km

'Who' as in what players?

 

[FlyingV]

Good lord.

Geelong, Richmond dynasty, GWS (strong era), Hawthorn 3-peat, Melbourne 2021, Collingwood 2018 to now and currrent Fremantle off the top of my head are loaded with time triallers.

The time trial was reduced to 2km to recreate the running time between rotations (3km as it used to be was too long).

Yes, there are repeat sprinters but there aren't a stack of guys dominating games with repeat sprint efforts who are not also 6:30 territory which is a good AFL time certainly nothing to write home about. It should only be winning trials because players are cooked and recovering from other gruelling sessions.

The good runners probably start at 6:15.

well said. We have not prioritised this for way too long. The Martin, Durham, Perkins, Cox, Snelling acquisitions show that we are starting to value aerobic ability. But are still way off.

 

[andleanback]

What I am getting at is it really doesn't mean anything in terms of how you perform. AFL is repeated endurance efforts mixed with short bursts.

It is how you recover for the next effort IMO.

Yeh definitely the yo-yo test is a more accurate depiction of the running that is required at afl level. But I’m saying that, the players that perform well in the yo-yo also usually perform well in a 2km time trial. If you’ve got a good running base you’ll have a better 2km time, no surprise that Brayshaw, Miller, keays, Daicos, walsh etc post good time trial times and are also some of the best midfielders at covering ground, and never look stuck in the mud gut running.

 

[andleanback]

Martin also doesn't have a s**t tank. He would have an average tank, with the ability to be sufficiently damaging ball-in-hand that it's better he spends his efforts on doing that than running hard defensively.

Parish, Merrett and Shiel would all have AFL average midfield tanks, their running power isn't a hallmark of their game nor is it a limitation of it. Average tank in this context does not mean they're clicking off 8 mins for 2km, that would give them a poor tank for an AFL player.

Snelling doesn't play wing, he plays an outnumber role off a HFF because he's a midfielder being played out of position that has a very high level of defensive work-rate.

Langford was drafted as a half-forward who might be able to play as a midfielder, which he couldn't do to a high standard at AFL level but can play a high half-forward or wing rotation.

Also a good 2km time doesn't necessarily translate all that well to AFL performance.

Andrew Brayshaw is noted as very strong two-way running midfielder and clocked 6:14 for the 2km in his draft year.

The same year Jayden Stephenson who's noted as a very one-directional running player clocked 6:21.

Does 7 seconds over 2km really dictate whether Stephenson can or can't run defensively?

Not sure what point your making with the 7 second difference? They’re both good 2km and both players cover the ground well. Anything below 6:30 is considered elite for 2km. Stephenson actually covers the ground really well, and does do a lot of defensive running in the role he plays for north. The issue for him is that he’s far too soft in the contest often. Nothing to do with his running capacity which is actually pretty good.

The orginal point I was trying to make is you would like to have some of your on ball mids up the front of the times, yes 2km don’t mean everything but it does show that they’re good runners for starters. You don’t need all of them to be great aerobic athletes, but it really shows when non of them are.

For example Gold Coast in their top 10 had anderson, Davies, Hollands, rowell, Flanders, sharp (Miller would be in there aswell). That’s a great base to have so many young mids that are good runners.

 

[Vander18]

Well actually he hasn't been back a while which is why he did not test at the combine. Played a few games. Was sore after the last Champ game and has been on a limited program. He has done less than half the workload this year compared to normal.

So you think he’s potentially a strong aerobic athlete?

 

[ant555]

So you think he’s potentially a strong aerobic athlete?

Not elite. Above average yes. Just needs to be in the system with no injuries.

 

[Vander18]

Not elite. Above average yes. Just needs to be in the system with no injuries.

Ok - let’s see.

Hope you’re right.

 

[VelvetSledge]

Probably the same thing every year, but it feels like most of the boys have come back in ripping nick. A lot of them look way leaner and fitter than usual.

 

[ant555]

Ok - let’s see.

Hope you’re right.

Do not just take my word for it. Most draft profiles had him at above average. If we wanted elite we needed to draft Hollands. His endurance running was on a par with Wardlaw and Phillipou when you look at most draft porfiles.