Review 24 - Ben Stratton (2019)

[Simon Crawshay]

But you have to acknowledge the fundamental change in role & consider how that may habe impacted his stats.

He used to be left alone, to focus on being a shut down defender, who could intercept or attack when able.

He was appointed Captain.

Now he's no longer able to play work the same focus (on 1 opponent) & his role is about ensuring that the 6 (Or 18) perform.

I agree with your observations regarding some of his individual performance attributes being less than in previous years, but as for the "stats don't lie" bit - his role changed dramatically due to the Captaincy & so they probably shouldn't be relied on as a measure of performance.

My counter argument to that would be did Hodge or Mitchells stats drop off when they were made captain?

Did Steve Smiths average drop when he was made captain of the Test side?

Even Gary Ablett Jnr (love him or hate him) went to another level when made captain of GC Sun's.

Part of being a good captain is being able to maintain (or even improve) your performance whilst managing the responsibility of being captain.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Lol
A large number of voters should remove bias
No, everyyhas their bias if more have a negative bias it reinforces the bias

Yabby is majority rules when picking 5 blokes to vote on its a very different system.

Fans have vary levels of understanding of the game and varying criteria for what they think is a good game.

Yabby has consistently underrated defenders over the Clarkson era compared to how the coaches rate their value in a win

So in your opinion how did you rate Strattons year (discregarding his finishes in either the PCM or Yabby medal.)

Purely based on your own opinion from watching Hawthorn games throughout the year did he, in your opinion only, have a good or poor year?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Who had a better season, Frawley or Stratton?

What's the point of having a discussion forum if we can't form our own opinions? We may as well shut down any player-related thread until after the PCM, that way we will know what we are allowed to think.

You can form your own opinions but if they turn out to be wrong you better have the stones to suck it up and recognise, rather than continuously claiming the people at the club who actually know what the players roles were and how well they did them got it so wrong.

 

[Gralin]

So in your opinion how did you rate Strattons year (discregarding his finishes in either the PCM or Yabby medal.)

Purely based on your own opinion from watching Hawthorn games throughout the year did he, in your opinion only, have a good or poor year?

He was middle of the pack. Not his best season as I've said.
He was part of and the leader of a very stingy defence, which is his job.

It was big time a transition year, Mitchell out, a lot of new faces player bigger roles. This wasn't 10th in a top 4 side, this was 10th in a team that finished 9th.

People act like he shouldn't have been in the 22, he had games where he was borderline but form isn't something you always have.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to grasp the idea that he wasn't as bad as people think he was and that the pcm votes are a good indicator of that.

This board is a bubble and the views expressed loudly and often tend to take root for many.

He's approaching the end, it could come quickly of he could bounce back in 2020, either way I'm happy with the view that he was in that middle tier this year.

He wasn't in our best or worst 6 over the course of the year.

 

[JaegarTime]

You can form your own opinions but if they turn out to be wrong you better have the stones to suck it up and recognise, rather than continuously claiming the people at the club who actually know what the players roles were and how well they did them got it so wrong.

Can an opinion actually be incorrect though? It can be wrong to you but not wrong to the person with that opinion.
It’s a fair opinion that Stratton didn’t have a great year (pre suspension).

 

[Carl Spackler]

Can an opinion actually be incorrect though? It can be wrong to you but not wrong to the person with that opinion.
It’s a fair opinion that Stratton didn’t have a great year (pre suspension).

I'm of the opinion that gravity is a conspiracy and that Einstein was its high priest.

QED

 

[Gralin]

Can an opinion actually be incorrect though? It can be wrong to you but not wrong to the person with that opinion.
It’s a fair opinion that Stratton didn’t have a great year (pre suspension).

Yes an opinion can be incorrect.

A belief can be incorrect.

You can still have it but people can point out it's wrong.

FYI I'm not arguing he had a great year I'm asking people to look at the PCM results and think about how the coaches came to a different conclusion to them.

 

[Hawkas1988]

Lol at this seriously lol mate as if these votes matter. By the way not everyone voted however in the PCM those that matter did anyways i have said my piece on this and no one at the club really cares what we all think about player performance or at least evaluation of player performance

As if they matter......they matter to me god dammit!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

[JaegarTime]

Yes an opinion can be incorrect.

A belief can be incorrect.

You can still have it but people can point out it's wrong.

FYI I'm not arguing he had a great year I'm asking people to look at the PCM results and think about how the coaches came to a different conclusion to them.

An opinion or a belief is a thought created in an individuals mind based on whatever they base it on. Some things can be debunked with facts like ‘my opinion is a kilometre is longer than a mile’ - well, no because that is factually incorrect. But you can’t debunk the posters opinion with facts as it is such a subjective topic.

Cool, well my opinion is that you need to check the way you speak to some people on this forum as it can come across very condescending and just shutting people out.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Ok so to clarify by no means saying stratts had a great year he was average

 

[Carl Spackler]

An opinion or a belief is a thought created in an individuals mind based on whatever they base it on. Some things can be debunked with facts like ‘my opinion is a kilometre is longer than a mile’ - well, no because that is factually incorrect. But you can’t debunk the posters opinion with facts as it is such a subjective topic.

Cool, well my opinion is that you need to check the way you speak to some people on this forum as it can come across very condescending and just shutting people out.

I'm of the opinion that slavery is preferable to freedom.

QED x 2

 

[Gralin]

An opinion or a belief is a thought created in an individuals mind based on whatever they base it on. Some things can be debunked with facts like ‘my opinion is a kilometre is longer than a mile’ - well, no because that is factually incorrect. But you can’t debunk the posters opinion with facts as it is such a subjective topic.

Cool, well my opinion is that you need to check the way you speak to some people on this forum as it can come across very condescending and just shutting people out.

Way to miss the point.

 

[Hawkas1988]

It's true, the Yabby doesn't give enough credit to defenders. For years Birchall finished right up there in the PCM but never got duly recognised in the Yabby. Criminally underrated for years on here.

Stratts has been a bit the same over the years. Although tbh his year as an "individual" was poor by his standards. We saw some un-Stratton like things. Concerned me alot early on in the year. Came good near the end.

I think the issue here is Stratton was so good in 2018 that his drop of form was startling/obvious for some and we may be judging him harder because of the form difference between the 2 years. He also is the captain which brings on more critique.

What we don't know is whilst his individual year was down, he may have done some really important team/structural things that we didn't see/notice and that's where his surprise finish in the PCM comes about.

Our defense as a whole had a very good year. He is a smart defender. The likes of Frawley and the young defenders need that around them so I assume he played a big role in our overall defensive performances.

TLDR I believe he was poorer as an individual but may have made up for some of that with great leadership and structure for the rest of the defense.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

[JaegarTime]

I'm of the opinion that slavery is preferable to freedom.

QED x 2

If you decide to read what I’ve said then you will realise that isn’t the point I’ve made.

 

[JaegarTime]

Way to miss the point.

Way to prove my point correct.

 

[Brant]

My counter argument to that would be did Hodge or Mitchells stats drop off when they were made captain?

Did Steve Smiths average drop when he was made captain of the Test side?

Even Gary Ablett Jnr (love him or hate him) went to another level when made captain of GC Sun's.

Part of being a good captain is being able to maintain (or even improve) your performance whilst managing the responsibility of being captain.

Are you asking me to check for you, or are you implying that there was no change?

OK, Sam Mitchell was Captain 2008 - 2010:
Possessions (average):
2008 - 27.8
2009 - 29.7
2010 - 27.6
2011 - 30.5
2012 - 27.2
2013 - 28.0
2014 - 28.1
2015 - 31.2
2016 - 29.6

I’m not breaking it down any further, but YES - he appeared to average more possessions when NOT captain. Of course, this is a very flawed method for explaining a change in possession numbers; however, it is likely an influencer or contributor to a change. Just like Stratts.

Comparing Steve Smith is silly so I won’t respond there.

Gary Ablett was diabolical as captain at GC. I’m sure his personal stats went up & I’m sure if you met him then he’d tell you all about it, but he was cancerous on their culture. That’s not the person or the captain that Stratts is, so comparing them probably supports my post more than your argument.

As for being a good captain... Nobody has ever accused Stratts as being a ‘good’ captain. In fact, I don’t think I’ve read or heard those words together at all. Captaincy & leadership in general is about influencing a team (or organised group) to achieve their objectives. It’d be handy if the captain maintained their performance during that scenario, but if they’ve influenced their group/team to achieve their objectives then to me, their leadership (level of influence) is worth more than the 2-3 possessions per week that they gave up in achieving it. Again, not implying that Stratts was a competent/effective (let alone ‘good’) captain - that’s a conversation for another time.

 

[The Chad and I]

Regardless I think if AFL players were stocks then Ben Stratton would definetly be a "Watch" for 2020.

More like the final glass of a fine bottle of wine: savour.

 

[Carl Spackler]

If you decide to read what I’ve said then you will realise that isn’t the point I’ve made.

"But you can’t debunk the posters opinion with facts as it is such a subjective topic."

Even subjective opinions can be wrong.

1 + 1 = 2, always and everywhere.

QED x 3 (I'm just moving ahead to purely mental objects as well, just to move the conversation along.)

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I guess the whole entire board must make an apology to Stratton following his surprising PCM result - given he didn't get a single vote in this board's Yabby medal award.

Even Brand managed to get one.

The Yabby medal has about as much credibility as random comments on Facebook in comparison to the thoughts of the football department. Surely this doesn’t need to be pointed out.

That you’d even mention it shows that you still haven’t understood that you are clinging to the thoughts of those without all the information, rather than listening to those who have it.


The football department set up and review every game with a fine tooth comb and are armed with all the tools to do so.
Not only do they look at whether a player is hitting targets but if they are also doing the things that helps the team take space or kill movement.

Are they transitioning across to the spare, are they closing down space, are they taking away a strength of the opposing team, are they blanketing a player, are they deliberately sacrificing their own game to help a teammate, are they doing the things their line coach implored them to do pre-game....

99% of the above things are unbeknownst to the plebs in the stands and on here, yet somehow armed with almost none of the facts other than “did he turn it over, and did his opponent kick multiple goals” there’s a tonne of people on here who think they know better than those who are actually divising and reviewing our week to week output.
The coaches know the opposition will score, they know contests will be lost, they know turnovers will happen. They don’t go-off half cocked 10 minutes into the first quarter and declare a player is “having a mare” like so many do here.
Stratton didn’t have his best season, by far, but the carry on each week about him and the subsequent commitment to say he was “mostly terrible” is clearly going against those with the most knowledge.

To be frank, the steadfast nature with which people who have little clue about our gameplan on any given day and the role a players has been given draws strong parallels to the anti-vaccine movement.

People who think they know better than the football department are not much better than that.
“I don’t need to know the science to know that vaccines are bad! I saw a post on Facebook that says it causes autism! I’ve done my research!”.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

The Yabby medal has about as much credibility as random comments on Facebook in comparison to the thoughts of the football department. Surely this doesn’t need to be pointed out.

That you’d even mention it shows that you still haven’t understood that you are clinging to the thoughts of those without all the information, rather than listening to those who have it.


The football department set up and review every game with a fine tooth comb and are armed with all the tools to do so.
Not only do they look at whether a player is hitting targets but if they are also doing the things that helps the team take space or kill movement.

Are they transitioning across to the spare, are they closing down space, are they taking away a strength of the opposing team, are they blanketing a player, are they deliberately sacrificing their own game to help a teammate, are they doing the things their line coach implored them to do pre-game....

99% of the above things are unbeknownst to the plebs in the stands and on here, yet somehow armed with almost none of the facts other than “did he turn it over, and did his opponent kick multiple goals” there’s a tonne of people on here who think they know better than those who are actually divising and reviewing our week to week output.
The coaches know the opposition will score, they know contests will be lost, they know turnovers will happen. They don’t go-off half cocked 10 minutes into the first quarter and declare a player is “having a mare” like so many do here.
Stratton didn’t have his best season, by far, but the carry on each week about him and the subsequent commitment to say he was “mostly terrible” is clearly going against those with the most knowledge.

To be frank, the steadfast nature with which people who have little clue about our gameplan on any given day and the role a players has been given draws strong parallels to the anti-vaccine movement.

People who think they know better than the football department are not much better than that.
“I don’t need to know the science to know that vaccines are bad! I saw a post on Facebook that says it causes autism! I’ve done my research!”.

Did you seriously just compare posters who have a different opinion on a players performance to anti-vaxers???????

I mean...............

You need to make an apology because that is probably the most offensive thing I have ever read on this forum.

Seriously WTF

 

[NICE1]

Bahahahaha!!
Stratts was rubbish last season.
just about every supporter knows he played below par, was beaten regularly, lost a step & was a s**t captain.
Love the argument for & against though... really do.
#bangthedrum

Abasi in your eyes who had a poor season? I want to understand your version of a poor season.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Are you asking me to check for you, or are you implying that there was no change?

OK, Sam Mitchell was Captain 2008 - 2010:
Possessions (average):
2008 - 27.8
2009 - 29.7
2010 - 27.6
2011 - 30.5
2012 - 27.2
2013 - 28.0
2014 - 28.1
2015 - 31.2
2016 - 29.6

I’m not breaking it down any further, but YES - he appeared to average more possessions when NOT captain. Of course, this is a very flawed method for explaining a change in possession numbers; however, it is likely an influencer or contributor to a change. Just like Stratts.

Comparing Steve Smith is silly so I won’t respond there.

Gary Ablett was diabolical as captain at GC. I’m sure his personal stats went up & I’m sure if you met him then he’d tell you all about it, but he was cancerous on their culture. That’s not the person or the captain that Stratts is, so comparing them probably supports my post more than your argument.

As for being a good captain... Nobody has ever accused Stratts as being a ‘good’ captain. In fact, I don’t think I’ve read or heard those words together at all. Captaincy & leadership in general is about influencing a team (or organised group) to achieve their objectives. It’d be handy if the captain maintained their performance during that scenario, but if they’ve influenced their group/team to achieve their objectives then to me, their leadership (level of influence) is worth more than the 2-3 possessions per week that they gave up in achieving it. Again, not implying that Stratts was a competent/effective (let alone ‘good’) captain - that’s a conversation for another time.

Actually rounding up/down Mitchell averaged 29 possessions over the 3 years he was captain which is right on the average over the 9 year period referenced above so I would suggest that any assumptions that Mitchell had a reduced output as captain is flawed.

Also Mitchell was just entering his prime when he gave up his captaincy in 2010 and I would assume (we can only assume) that if he had have maintained his captaincy he would continued his upward trajectory in performance in much the same manner.

For all the talk of Ablett being diabolical as captain of GC he did win a Brownlow medal up there (and probably should have won another) and its not as if the Suns have miraculously turned the corner now that the "cancer" of Gary Ablett has been removed (that club has much more fundamental problems than whatever Gary is supposed to have done).

 

[Gralin]

Did you seriously just compare posters who have a different opinion on a players performance to anti-vaxers???????

I mean...............

You need to make an apology because that is probably the most offensive thing I have ever read on this forum.

Seriously WTF

Posters who ignore the coaches votes

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Posters who ignore the coaches votes

Coaches votes are subjective results based on a small number of individuals (be they as highly credited as they are are only people and subject to human bias)

Vaccines are peer reviewed science with quantifiable, identifiable results over a extended period of time.

To even compare the two shows a basic lack of understanding of how Scientific Method works (I have a Bachelor of Science so trust me you are barking up the wrong tree here).

Highly, highly offensive. Its the equivalent of calling someone a Nazi if they have a differing opinion. Infantile.

 

[Gralin]

Coaches votes are subjective results based on a small number of individuals (be they as highly credited as they are are only people and subject to human bias)

Vaccines are peer reviewed science with quantifiable, identifiable results over a extended period of time.

To even compare the two shows a basic lack of understanding of how Scientific Method works (I have a Bachelor of Science so trust me you are barking up the wrong tree here).

Highly, highly offensive. Its the equivalent of calling someone a Nazi if they have a differing opinion. Infantile.

Ah I see. You don't think the coaches know more than you about football.