An objective look at the most successful VFL/AFL teams
- Thread starter PumpyChowdown
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Not flawed at all.
Where did I nominate Fitzroy, Footscray or St Kilda as contenders for the greatest club of all time? They (Saints and Dogs at least) are behind Norwood & East Freo.
Read my post again please.
And, if we are talking GOAT we should include early VFA flags which gives Essendon 20, so I say it is between Port and Essendon.
'Top Tier' Flags since 1971
Hawthorn 10
Port 8 (inc 7 SANFL pre Crows)
Carlton 4
Essendon 4
North 4
Norwood 4
No WAFL club betters this.
P.s. I chose 1971 because it best suits my position.
Hawthorn 10
Port 8 (inc 7 SANFL pre Crows)
Carlton 4
Essendon 4
North 4
Norwood 4
No WAFL club betters this.
P.s. I chose 1971 because it best suits my position.
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Carlton and Essendon are the most successful teams in the league, Port Adelaide is the leagues most successful club. I think that's fair. The VFL started in 1897 and continues today, a name change and a few extra teams does not change the league.
Scott lastname
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Your post assumes that the VFL (until clearly the AFL became it) was always the premier competition, which is the difficulty. Whilst this has generally been the case, it is not a fair assumption.
So the question is, when did the VFL clearly become the premier competition. Most would argue it happened before it became the AFL in 1990. We could all argue the point, as before 1990 Victorian teams had already started paying players to come (especially from South Australia) to play, but it is difficult to choose.
You could make legitimate arguments for anywhere from 1982 (South Melbourne move to Sydney) to 1987 (Brisbane and WCE join) to 1990 (VFL officially becomes the AFL). However, before that the VFL had become the premier competition. Glendinning came (from WA) to the Kangaroos in 1978, so should we start there? Or is it when the Krakouers moved to North in 1982?
In any event, somewhere between 1975 and 1982 the "VFL" probably became clearly the definitive 'rules' competition in the land, with it being unquestionable probably by about 1985, with people like John Platten coming across.
In any event, where you draw that line is completely arbitrary. I'd posit, therefore, that 1987 is pretty definitive, as that is when the VFL was without any doubt the best competition and when it became national; having representation from WA, NSW, Qld and of course Victoria (they really really should have brought in SA in 1987). I'd accept any arguments from the North teams of the 70s onwards though.
That leaves the following premiers:
Hawthorn - 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013
West Coast - 1992, 1994, 2006
Brisbane - 2001, 2002, 2003
Geelong 2007, 2009, 2011
Collingwood - 1990, 2010
Essendon - 1993, 2000
North Melbourne - 1996, 1999
Adelaide - 1997, 1998
Sydney 2005, 2012
Carlton - 1987, 1995
Carlton - 1995
Port - 2004
This is subjective. I don't pretend otherwise. However, it is also rational. You could mount a similar argument from 1990 or for 1982 (for the reasons set out above). I know this is going to seem self serving as a Hawthorn fan; however, that was not the intention. I'm not saying Hawthorn is the most successful club of all time (we are not). However, since the VFL/AFL has been the premier competition, Hawthorn is clearly up there, along with West Coast, Geelong and Brisbane. Extending to 1982 only bumps up Essendon (and Carlton gets one more), with Hawthorn also benefiting, but I guess my non-East Coast brethren would argue that during this period the VFL was not the definitive "best" competition.
So the question is, when did the VFL clearly become the premier competition. Most would argue it happened before it became the AFL in 1990. We could all argue the point, as before 1990 Victorian teams had already started paying players to come (especially from South Australia) to play, but it is difficult to choose.
You could make legitimate arguments for anywhere from 1982 (South Melbourne move to Sydney) to 1987 (Brisbane and WCE join) to 1990 (VFL officially becomes the AFL). However, before that the VFL had become the premier competition. Glendinning came (from WA) to the Kangaroos in 1978, so should we start there? Or is it when the Krakouers moved to North in 1982?
In any event, somewhere between 1975 and 1982 the "VFL" probably became clearly the definitive 'rules' competition in the land, with it being unquestionable probably by about 1985, with people like John Platten coming across.
In any event, where you draw that line is completely arbitrary. I'd posit, therefore, that 1987 is pretty definitive, as that is when the VFL was without any doubt the best competition and when it became national; having representation from WA, NSW, Qld and of course Victoria (they really really should have brought in SA in 1987). I'd accept any arguments from the North teams of the 70s onwards though.
That leaves the following premiers:
Hawthorn - 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013
West Coast - 1992, 1994, 2006
Brisbane - 2001, 2002, 2003
Geelong 2007, 2009, 2011
Collingwood - 1990, 2010
Essendon - 1993, 2000
North Melbourne - 1996, 1999
Adelaide - 1997, 1998
Sydney 2005, 2012
Carlton - 1987, 1995
Carlton - 1995
Port - 2004
This is subjective. I don't pretend otherwise. However, it is also rational. You could mount a similar argument from 1990 or for 1982 (for the reasons set out above). I know this is going to seem self serving as a Hawthorn fan; however, that was not the intention. I'm not saying Hawthorn is the most successful club of all time (we are not). However, since the VFL/AFL has been the premier competition, Hawthorn is clearly up there, along with West Coast, Geelong and Brisbane. Extending to 1982 only bumps up Essendon (and Carlton gets one more), with Hawthorn also benefiting, but I guess my non-East Coast brethren would argue that during this period the VFL was not the definitive "best" competition.
the only way to rank teams is by comparing teams to other teams at the point of each teams inception into the league
hawthorn might have 11 premierships, but against GC and GWS, they would only have one
Port Adelaide might have a billion flags in the SANFL, however, the teams they are competing against are still in the SANFL,, they only have one flag in the AFL, compared to brisbane who have 3, sydney two, geelong 3 and so forth....
hawthorn might have 11 premierships, but against GC and GWS, they would only have one
Port Adelaide might have a billion flags in the SANFL, however, the teams they are competing against are still in the SANFL,, they only have one flag in the AFL, compared to brisbane who have 3, sydney two, geelong 3 and so forth....
You stated if they were great clubs they would be in the AFL - yet not-so-successful Victorian clubs are in the AFL, purely based on location.
They are not in the AFL only because of how the AFL was formed (from the VFL) - not because they aren't great clubs.
I have no problem with the OPs table, formula etc - but it in no way should it be used to discredit 'great' clubs from the SANFL and WAFL.
Klaus
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We've won 11 since 1961, or 11 of the last 53 flags at a conversion rate of 1 in every 4.81 years. Not bad.
In 50 years time there is a good chance people will refer to teams AFL Premierships and VFL Premierships separately. For example, a young Carlton fan in 2064 will say things such as "we've only won 1 AFL Premiership, but we did win 15 VFL Premierships".
In 50 years time there is a good chance people will refer to teams AFL Premierships and VFL Premierships separately. For example, a young Carlton fan in 2064 will say things such as "we've only won 1 AFL Premiership, but we did win 15 VFL Premierships".
Holy Rioli
Premiership Player
Neither were Essendon should we make it 13?
PieNSauce
Norm Smith Medallist
Factually incorrect. The VFL is the very same competition that was renamed to AFL. Does a woman who takes her husband's surname become an entirely differnt person? (OOPS.. Experience tells me she does!
)
boncer34
Formerly "Dos23"
Sure why not?
Not sure if you think taking a cheap shot somehow counters my point but hopefully trolling me gave you a sense of satisfaction.
Holy Rioli
Premiership Player
Actually just trying to make a point. The teams you mentioned were eligible and I thought your argument was pretty stupid. The only team not eligible to win the premiership last year was Essendon. Not a cheapshot just a fact. As other posters have said there have been crap teams every year but who are you or I or anyone to say they shouldn't be counted based on the OP's formula?Sure why not?
Not sure if you think taking a cheap shot somehow counters my point but hopefully trolling me gave you a sense of satisfaction.
boncer34
Formerly "Dos23"
The teams I mentioned were never going to win the flag.
My very simple point is its easy to say oh a premiership is worth X points because there was that many teams in the comp but that theory itself is flawed.
Hence my comment.
No I didn't.
I said if they were 'that great' (as Essendon, Port, Blues, Pies), they would be in the AFL. Port was the only club outside the VFL strong enough to force it's way in. That is a fact.
Donster5757
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I think you'll find there was a salary cap and the draft system in place when the WCE entered in 1987 thus debunking your "ready made all star team theory". West Coast also paid $4M to join the league, no other team since has been forced to pay anywhere near that much; in fact teams like Brisbane and Sydney were granted significant concessions up until recently. The $4M actually saved teh VFL from complete collapse.
As far as a "huge Footy State" well huge in area however Western Australia's population is quite small by comparison to NSW and Vic. I believe the travel issue makes it just a little bit more difficult for WA teams … just to even make it to a GF. Richmond played something like 8 MCG games to finish off last year. Collingwood only ever travel west once a year. This hardly seems to be a level playing field. West Coast and Freo certainly don't receive any favours from the AFL.
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