Carlton Supporters and The AFL

[BM123]

Given the delusion extends to most Carlton presidents (current, dead & past) this century . . . can you blame people for this generalisation?

What is delusional about a club that has won 16 flags been more likely to set the bar higher on what is acceptable? Only reason so many people are having pots shots at Carlton is because we are still going through one of the worst periods that the club has faced on-field in its existence. Carlton has experienced great success in its history and we don't want to end up like St Kilda or Richmond who seem mentally incapable of winning the flag.

 

[nicky]

yes, some of the stuff in carlton the forum is ridiculous. some of the posters (which is who you really mean by 'supporters' and 'the club') bring the outrage on themselves.
ultimately i just think it mirrors any other club supporter base though. plenty of supporters get shrill when they are victims (rightly or wrongly), that's pretty obvious.

as to whether this can somehow tie into any culture argument you're trying to make, i don't know. clearly we haven't done very well this year. i agree that there is a certain arrogance to resting players early in the year before we have even made the finals, and that that arrogance may have permeated through the club.



not everyone has forgotten that geelong supporters were hoping someone would come to the table to keep ablett.

I agree with this. I don't find carlton supporters bad at all (some of their reactions to the judd incident is a little mystifying however).

Although carlton is my most hated team, this contempt is directed at the club and some of it's previous actions; not the players or the supporters of carlton.

It's actually merely a coincidence that my most despised player (chris judd) plays for my most hated team. I find judd's onfield "mishaps" to be creepy. He's like an afl version of Dexter the way he goes about his surgical manouvers to inflict pain on others.

It might sound hard to believe that i can't stand judd despite carlton, but it's the truth.

I have carlton supporting family and friends and they're all reasonable, honest people; just happen to go for a dirty cheating stinking club.

 

[sherb]

Revolutionist history.

At the time, the great majority of Carlton supporters were aware of the cheating and culture Elliot that championed well before the AFL did Carlton for salary cap breaches. Elliot was one of many that cheated the salary cap at Carlton, Craig Bradley & Silvagni are two rats that only admitted to accepting 'under the table' payments when they realized that Carlton wouldn't pay their full contract. It wasn't just Elliot who was responsible, it was the entire club, he is just a figure head fall guy for Carlton supporters who embraced that culture at the time and now want to sweep it under the carpet.

Prove it.

 

[Terex8]

What a ridiculous statement. If every person at the Club knew about it it would have been found out long before the AFL launched a specific inquiry into us. The highest level of the administration would have known and players would have had a fairly decent idea considering the circumstances in which they were paid.

Well that directly contradicts the evidence Craig Bradley & Silvagni directly gave the AFL.

They admitted to the AFL that their contracts had 'under the table' components since 1993. Ian Collins, Stephen Gough, John Elliot & co have since made public comments that they were well aware of the cheating long before the AFL launched the enquiry. The only reason why it never became public consumption before the investigation is because it implicated Gough in his role at the MCC and Collins at the AFL.

Then there are people like Fraser Brown, who was later to be found of accepting these payments, refusing to give the AFL evidence because he had retired. You are very naive if you believe the majority of the club weren't aware of these practises until the AFL investigated the club in 2002.

John Elliot is a convienent fall guy.

 

[DTRAIN87]

I think you'll find, in respect of your three examples huge inconsistencies in the way the AFL have applied their rules to Carlton versus others:

- Compare the Essendon and Carlton salary cap penalties

- Compare the Williams umpire contact with every other example of umpire contact

- Compare the Judd penalty with the Jackson penalty (more serious injury suffered, and no pre-existing injury).

Once you've done your homework, please return with a full explanation. I think you'll be surprised, if you're actually being honest about this and don't have an agenda. But I guess that's pretty unlikely. Anyway, do your homework.

Williams actions while not severe were deliberate. The other cases when umpire contact was heavily policed about 10 years ago saw guys go for 4 but they were also accidental and not intentional.

Which Jackson penalty?

Carlton were by far the worst of the three clubs who got done for it.

 

[Seadog]

Ok with regards to the umpires-
There were a couple of questionable decisions on both sides.

However the simple fact is that the side that is first to the ball will always win frees that the opposition supporters don't like or accept. North were harder at it, got to the ball first, and moved the ball quickly into the forward line which put the Carlton defenders out of position and they gave up soft frees. To top it off stupid 50s didn't help Carltons cause.

And if you want to raise s**t umpriring how did Judd get a free? I didn't realise that there was a new chicken wing holding the ball free.

Oh and the other reason we won so well was because we exploited your weak defences by bringing it straight up the middle - hence the majority of our shots were from 30m out in front.

I love how North fans are the voice of reason on umpiring when they are on the right side of things.
But when they get rough end of the deal its an AFL/umpire, and WC cheats conspiracy.
Hypocrites.

 

[PieBeast]

I think there were a few Collingwood supporters showing similar characteristics after the Wellingham instance

No doubt but not the overwhelming majority.
The general consensus was Wellignham was going to get 3/4 weeks while most of carlton fans didn't want to hear anything about Judd getting suspended. I actually guessed correctly what Judd's penalty going to be prior to the hearing but am of the opinion he did get off lightly considering how severe the charges were. Pretty clear that for some unknown reason the 30% loading for his previous bad record didn't apply to him.
So the hysterical reaction from your mob about him getting 4 weeks is simply bewildering to say the least.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

No doubt but not the overwhelming majority.
The general consensus was Wellignham was going to get 3/4 weeks while most of carlton fans didn't want to hear anything about Judd getting suspended. I actually guessed correctly what Judd's penalty going to be prior to the hearing but am of the opinion he did get off lightly considering how severe the charges were. Pretty clear that for some unknown reason the 30% loading for his previous bad record didn't apply to him.
So the hysterical reaction from your mob about him getting 4 weeks is simply bewildering to say the least.

I believe i read they let it slide due to not allowing him to give a plea and being forced to go straight to the tribunal

 

[jonoman89]

Well that directly contradicts the evidence Craig Bradley & Silvagni directly gave the AFL.

They admitted to the AFL that their contracts had 'under the table' components since 1993. Ian Collins, Stephen Gough, John Elliot & co have since made public comments that they were well aware of the cheating long before the AFL launched the enquiry. The only reason why it never became public consumption before the investigation is because it implicated Gough in his role at the MCC and Collins at the AFL.

Then there are people like Fraser Brown, who was later to be found of accepting these payments, refusing to give the AFL evidence because he had retired. You are very naive if you believe the majority of the club weren't aware of these practises until the AFL investigated the club in 2002.

John Elliot is a convienent fall guy.

I don't see much supporting evidence backing your statements. And the names you have mentioned are senior administrators and senior players, as I have said.

Or are the physios and boot studders also cheating scum?

 

[bignick]

This whole thread is laughable. It just amazes me that people think a whole clubs fan base posts on Big Footy. The Carlton Board on Big Footy is full of one eyed lunatics who I doubt get out of the house much as I think a lot of clubs are.

I use Big Footy for a bit of fun and have a bit of banter. Some people have great and valid opinions and I really enjoy reading posts of some supporters of other clubs. Funnily enough I don't feel that people's opinions on here are completely indicative of a clubs view.

Having said that Juddy got a deserved penalty and every game one clubs gets a better run than the other from the umpire and I doubt very much that there is a conspiracy against Carlton.

 

[Corrosion]

Williams actions while not severe were deliberate. The other cases when umpire contact was heavily policed about 10 years ago saw guys go for 4 but they were also accidental and not intentional.

Which Jackson penalty?

Carlton were by far the worst of the three clubs who got done for it.

He was referring to the 2009 incident that involved Daniel Jackson from Richmond performing a 'Chicken Wing' tackle on Brent Harvey of North Melbourne who subsequently dislocated his elbow in the tackle and missed 12 weeks from memory.

 

[PieBeast]

I believe i read they let it slide due to not allowing him to give a plea and being forced to go straight to the tribunal

Thats strange to say the least, he wasn't pleading guilty to his charges anyway.....
And even taking this into account there's no doubt he got the rub of the green, considering the points scale Gleeson recommended and the verdict would have been harsher if it was left up to the MRP.
Your club shouldn't have any qualms about the severity of this suspension whatsoever, simple as that.

 

[BM123]

Morans or carlton supporters?

There are ways of doing it darl, yours (carlton supporters on the whole)is an embarrassing display of petulance, one-eyedness and the deary me syndrome.
I have no issue whatsoever with posters like dumb modus operandi when it comes to standing up for your club but the majority of your brethren have disgraced themselves on here in the last day or two.

Your club is notorious even here in Perth for having the worst supporters collectively in Australia by far. Loved hearing the stories from my Geelong supporting grandmother about been belted over the back of her head when she was 13 for cheering Geelong at Kardania Park by Collingwood supporters simply because they were upset about their team losing.

 

[PieBeast]

Your club is notorious even here in Perth for having the worst supporters collectively in Australia by far. Loved hearing the stories from my Geelong supporting grandmother about been belted over the back of her head when she was 13 for cheering Geelong at Kardania Park by Collingwood supporters simply because they were upset about their team losing.

Thats a nice story but it doesn't make your kind look any better or has any relevance to the post you quoted

 

[BM123]

Thats a nice story but it doesn't make your kind look any better

Well I doubt your kind has any reason to look at Carlton supporters negatively considering their own disgraceful actions in the past/present and no doubt the future. Your c.r.a.p stinks just as much if not worse then ours mate.

 

[PieBeast]

Well I doubt your kind has any reason to look at Carlton supporters negatively considering their own disgraceful actions in the past/present and no doubt the future. Your c.r.a.p stinks just as much if not worse then ours mate.

Thats cool but we are discussing the events of the last few days and the dick measuring contest about cultures has nothing to do with it.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Your club is notorious even here in Perth for having the worst supporters collectively in Australia by far. Loved hearing the stories from my Geelong supporting grandmother about been belted over the back of her head when she was 13 for cheering Geelong at Kardania Park by Collingwood supporters simply because they were upset about their team losing.

While we go down this path, your club has the biggest reputation for dishonesty and manipulating the system illegally to their advantage. Then they whinge when it is punished just like the Judd incident.

 

[BM123]

Thats cool but we are discussing the events of the last few days and the dick measuring contest about cultures has nothing to do with it.

Fair enough then honestly I would say Judd's penalty was deserved but this thread was basically designed to kick us while we are down.

 

[Summer Nights]

Carlton supporters are unbelievable. They had an absolute dream run with umpires in 2011. I have never, ever seen a team favoured the way that they were favoured against West Coast in Perth in their second final. The umps almost handed them the game. Wouldn't surprise me if something dodgy went down there.

How can they sanely whinge about the AFL not looking after them? Doesn't the club owe the AFL millions, which keeps getting deferred while they buy players like Judd and continue to spend on facilities? Pay your debts before you go shopping ffs!

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Carlton supporters are unbelievable. They had an absolute dream run with umpires in 2011. I have never, ever seen a team favoured the way that they were favoured against West Coast in Perth in their second final. The umps almost handed them the game. Wouldn't surprise me if something dodgy went down there.

How can they sanely whinge about the AFL not looking after them? Doesn't the club owe the AFL millions, which keeps getting deferred whilst the buy players like Judd and continue to spend on facilities? Pay your debts before you go shopping ffs!

Hahahahahahahahah are you joking or just delusional??

 

[rainman06]

The problem is two fold.

Firstly their fans live on a delusional plane that is reserved only for them. Particularly since their mini-resurgence from all those wooden spoons, there has been an unflappable belief that their team is deserving of the premiership every year or something. When the results inevitably speak to another reality, they act out in strange and embarrassing ways. Often the subject of their behaviour appears to be something unrelated but you can always trace it back to their team being not as good as they thought it was. Always.

Secondly, and most powerfully in my view, is that their club is run by individuals who ensure this kind of delusion can prosper without any kind of self-consciousness. When the men at the top are so desperate to create an ''Us vs. The Rest'' mentality, eventually the collectively simple populous will think this is the only way. Look at the Judd case, for example. If their club and captain responded in a way that exhibited any tiny bit of honesty, self-awareness or contriteness, their fans wouldn't be spending time on message boards passionately arguing some of the most futile, absurd defense arguments known to man. Since the club abandons all concepts of fairness, honesty and reason...so does it's followers. The fish rots at the head and this fish stinks.

 

[Summer Nights]

Hahahahahahahahah are you joking or just delusional??

Neither. Which are you? That first half was an absolute disgrace.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Neither. Which are you? That first half was an absolute disgrace.

We would have won the game if Walker was correctly awarded the free kick he was deserved in the goal square in the final minutes.
Not to mention the atrocious umpiring we had to fight against up to that point to be within a goal in the final minutes

 

[BM123]

While we go down this path, your club has the biggest reputation for dishonesty and manipulating the system illegally to their advantage. Then they whinge when it is punished just like the Judd incident.

All clubs have people who whinge like those Geelong supporters who continually accuse Hawthorn of stealing the 2008 premiership from them. Carlton's got some bad history with salary cap cheating but I would have rather a few blemishes and pay the price for them then worrying about why my club went 44 seasons without a flag. Moral victories are good for trolling in hindsight I suppose? Melbourne is another club that has poor history on-field and off field but people choose to have a go at Carlton instead because we actually had success.

 

[DTRAIN87]

All clubs have people who whinge like those Geelong supporters who continually accuse Hawthorn of stealing the 2008 premiership from them. Carlton's got some bad history with salary cap cheating but I would have rather a few blemishes and pay the price for them then worrying about why my club went 44 seasons without a flag. Moral victories are good for trolling in hindsight I suppose? Melbourne is another club that has poor history on-field and off field but people choose to have a go at Carlton instead because we actually had success.

The only reason Carlton didn't go for 44 years without winning the flag is because the Commissioner of the VFL decided to give Carlton the best zone as he was a Carlton supporter no less. More dodgy manipulation for success. Also he bought zones in to stop Geelong from being successful.