Opinion Changes for Round 2 vs The Blues

[Dogsman16]

This might seem a bit left field to suggest but we might be better off without Naughton in the forward line. We’ve become so predictable and one dimensional with him there I think it’s become a real negative.
For a team that made the GF I can’t believe how few options we have to run through there but at a pinch I’d say Bailey Dale and Weightman playing deep could make sense. Dale has proved he’s a pretty deadly option forward.

We are only one dimensional cause the personnel has changed. Naughton, Bruce, English worked beautifully for the majority of last season.

A) we need our better users forward of centre instead of bombing it. Caleb Daniel at high half forward would be perfect at hitting up leading targets like JUH/Schache and Weightman

B) need younger players to develop and stand up. Luckily we are well stacked in that area with future options like JUH and Darcy.

Losing Bruce and then moving English out of the role has hurt the structure significantly. We haven’t just lost Bruce from the forward line but in effect we have lost English as well.

 

[Dogsman16]

Also I might add that we did just play the best team in the league with a fantastic across the park structure. Let’s maybe have a look at other supporting options to assist Naughton before we make drastic change.

 

[doggies ftw]

Also I might add that we did just play the best team in the league with a fantastic across the park structure. Let’s maybe have a look at other supporting options to assist Naughton before we make drastic change.

Taking Naughty out of our forward line takes us from a top 4 team to a bottom 4 team, straight up.

 

[doggiesin08]

Taking Naughty out of our forward line takes us from a top 4 team to a bottom 4 team, straight up.

I think Naughton out of the forward line while Bruce is injured and English playing solo ruck might push us there. If you bring a fit alternate ruck in and play English, Schache and JUH as the tall forwards its far from a top 4 team but I think we'd still account for more than 3 other teams.

 

[TiAn_]

The Giants and Port were the only other teams last week without a genuine second ruck or forward/ruck. We’re still unusual in that regard. A lot of the secondary ruck options aren’t exactly stars either.

Based on how lacklustre he was last week, I really don’t think we’d be worse off swapping Sweet for Cordy. I think every opposition team would be stoked we’re playing Cordy as a forward rather than going big with Sweet or adding another small like West. It would also allow us to leave English forward for longer stretches if needed, without sacrificing the ruck.

Generally, I think we’re still going in too small at both ends. O’Brien will fix that in defence (presuming Keath and Gardner/Schache are also down there), but we still need Cordy out for a genuine second tall/ruck up forward, next to Naughton and JUH, imo.

 

[Foxman98]

The Giants and Port were the only other teams last week without a genuine second ruck or forward/ruck. We’re still unusual in that regard. A lot of the secondary ruck options aren’t exactly stars either.

Based on how lacklustre he was last week, I really don’t think we’d be worse off swapping Sweet for Cordy. I think every opposition team would be stoked we’re playing Cordy as a forward rather than going big with Sweet or adding another small like West. It would also allow us to leave English forward for longer stretches if needed, without sacrificing the ruck.

Generally, I think we’re still going in too small at both ends. O’Brien will fix that in defence (presuming Keath and Gardner/Schache are also down there), but we still need Cordy out for a genuine second tall/ruck up forward, next to Naughton and JUH, imo.

1000%. Why he didn't play Sweet in either practice match still baffles me, He is consistently kicking goals in the VFL and has shown he has some forward craft (unlike Martin) and is more than capable in the ruck (unlike Cordy). I would say O'Brien will be in next week and he is just taking a cautious approach but Him Gardner and Keath I can see being a good trio. I can almost guarantee Stef will be a late in which helps a little but for me English has gone miles past him in the ruck and he is useless as a forward.

 

[Sentinel]

Who else would people have for Scott's half forward role?

Jones is unproven. We havent seen his VFL matches.

Scott was having a very strong preseason before a stray Jordan Sweet elbow put him in hospital with a messed up cheek/eye. Not surprised to see him in. Easy to forget he played 19 games last season.

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

Taking Naughty out of our forward line takes us from a top 4 team to a bottom 4 team, straight up.

I'm not saying take him out of the team - just out of the forward line.
To be honest I'm not even saying that is the answer. The comments above are correct of course, the delivery needs to be better.
Rather than bombing it in high like we did last week we would be better served kicking a mongrel punt in low and hard along the ground. Back lines sh1t themselves when that happens as they can’t set themselves properly.

 

[TiAn_]

1000%. Why he didn't play Sweet in either practice match still baffles me, He is consistently kicking goals in the VFL and has shown he has some forward craft (unlike Martin) and is more than capable in the ruck (unlike Cordy). I would say O'Brien will be in next week and he is just taking a cautious approach but Him Gardner and Keath I can see being a good trio. I can almost guarantee Stef will be a late in which helps a little but for me English has gone miles past him in the ruck and he is useless as a forward.

Agree, Stef seems redundant now that English appears to have gone past him as a ruck. He offers very little elsewhere.

 

[doggies ftw]

The Giants and Port were the only other teams last week without a genuine second ruck or forward/ruck. We’re still unusual in that regard. A lot of the secondary ruck options aren’t exactly stars either.

Based on how lacklustre he was last week, I really don’t think we’d be worse off swapping Sweet for Cordy. I think every opposition team would be stoked we’re playing Cordy as a forward rather than going big with Sweet or adding another small like West. It would also allow us to leave English forward for longer stretches if needed, without sacrificing the ruck.

Generally, I think we’re still going in too small at both ends. O’Brien will fix that in defence (presuming Keath and Gardner/Schache are also down there), but we still need Cordy out for a genuine second tall/ruck up forward, next to Naughton and JUH, imo.

Yeah that’s really it isn’t it, I mean if we had some great hybrid/utilitys and wanted to go that way instead of 2 ruckman I could understand - but like you said is swapping Sweet for Cordy really making us lose much?

Anyway you look at it Sweet/Martin rucking & English forward/back utility over English ruck/Cordy forward/back utility just makes the side look soooo much better overall

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Think Cordy will play most of the game forward. forward. Curnow is only 192cm so someone like Crozier can theoretically run with him, plus English won't push hard forward, but will be a kick behind the play influence in things like defending kick ins and forward 50 stoppages. Also, Curnow, de Koning and Pittonet will all each have 15-20% time on ground on the bench, with McKay 5-10%, with Keath 0-5% and Gardner 0%. We can always roll Cordy back, and there will be moments in the game that we will if it's not too much of a complex tactical adjustment (like maybe the last 2 minutes of a quarter if none of those players for Carlton are on the bench) but it doesn't make sense to play him back for the majority of the game. Like, mathematically, he'd just be matched up on someone smaller.

 

[The Inbetweener]

Think Cordy will play most of the game forward. forward. Curnow is only 192cm so someone like Crozier can theoretically run with him, plus English won't push hard forward, but will be a kick behind the play influence in things like defending kick ins and forward 50 stoppages. Also, Curnow, de Koning and Pittonet will all each have 15-20% time on ground on the bench, with McKay 5-10%, with Keath 0-5% and Gardner 0%. We can always roll Cordy back, and there will be moments in the game that we will if it's not too much of a complex tactical adjustment (like maybe the last 2 minutes of a quarter if none of those players for Carlton are on the bench) but it doesn't make sense to play him back for the majority of the game. Like, mathematically, he'd just be matched up on someone smaller.

Curnow would simply be too strong for Crozier. He would beat him in a one on one marketing contest 9 out of 10 times

 

[threenewpadlocks]

English had 20 touches through the ruck, won 8 frees, we won centre clearances 19-8, and had 86% time on ground. If he can do that against Gawn and Jackson, why would we need to give him more support against lesser rucks in this game? English or Sweet up forward wouldn't than what we'd lose having Sweet rucking, given that Sweet hardly set the world on fire after his AFL stint in the VFL last year.

And this discussion was had a million times over with Sweet last year when we were picking Martin at the back end of last year. Since he was dropped from the AFL team last year, Sweet basically let every AFL-listed ruck that was playing VFL (Rhys Stanley

1

Rhys Stanley

Age

35

Ht

200cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.6

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

6.4

4star

CL

3.4

5star

HO

27.6

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

4.5

3star

CL

5.0

5star

HO

21.5

5star

D

11.8

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

6.4

4star

CL

3.0

5star

HO

33.0

5star

, Callum Sinclair, Tom Campbell

29

Tom Campbell

Age

34

Ht

201cm

Wt

108kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.1

2star

K

4.2

2star

HB

4.8

3star

CL

1.6

4star

HO

17.0

5star

D

5.0

1star

K

3.0

1star

HB

2.0

1star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

2.0

5star

D

7.2

2star

K

4.2

2star

HB

3.0

3star

CL

1.2

4star

HO

13.2

5star

etc.) get 20+ touches against him in the VFL, and the only player he marginally beat was Nathan Mullenger-McHugh for Coburg - and when I say marginally, like, literally marginally - more hitouts but only 13 touches to 12.

No issue with looking to build Sweet up as a player - plenty of rucks have come on in their late 20's, he did okay in the AFL games he did play and he dominated the SANFL in the same manner that Hayes did last year - but he's not demanding selection on form right now...

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Curnow would simply be too strong for Crozier. He would beat him in a one on one marketing contest 9 out of 10 times

"Theoretically". Not saying it's something we'd enjoy, obviously, but if we have to line up that way for one or two centre bounces across the entire game, that's what you cop for not being unnecessarily tall and unable to move the ball from defence.

 

[Foxman98]

English had 20 touches through the ruck, won 8 frees, we won centre clearances 19-8, and had 86% time on ground. If he can do that against Gawn and Jackson, why would we need to give him more support against lesser rucks in this game? English or Sweet up forward wouldn't than what we'd lose having Sweet rucking, given that Sweet hardly set the world on fire after his AFL stint in the VFL last year.

And this discussion was had a million times over with Sweet last year when we were picking Martin at the back end of last year. Since he was dropped from the AFL team last year, Sweet basically let every AFL-listed ruck that was playing VFL (Rhys Stanley, Callum Sinclair, Tom Campbell etc.) get 20+ touches against him in the VFL, and the only player he marginally beat was Nathan Mullenger-McHugh for Coburg - and when I say marginally, like, literally marginally - more hitouts but only 13 touches to 12.

No issue with looking to build Sweet up as a player - plenty of rucks have come on in their late 20's, he did okay in the AFL games he did play and he dominated the SANFL in the same manner that Hayes did last year - but he's not demanding selection on form right now...

He won't be playing much ruck it'll be 30/70 split with English. He is a far better forward option and a competent chop out in the ruck. Watch the first game against Port last year

 

[footscray1973]

English had 20 touches through the ruck, won 8 frees, we won centre clearances 19-8, and had 86% time on ground. If he can do that against Gawn and Jackson, why would we need to give him more support against lesser rucks in this game? English or Sweet up forward wouldn't than what we'd lose having Sweet rucking, given that Sweet hardly set the world on fire after his AFL stint in the VFL last year.

And this discussion was had a million times over with Sweet last year when we were picking Martin at the back end of last year. Since he was dropped from the AFL team last year, Sweet basically let every AFL-listed ruck that was playing VFL (Rhys Stanley, Callum Sinclair, Tom Campbell etc.) get 20+ touches against him in the VFL, and the only player he marginally beat was Nathan Mullenger-McHugh for Coburg - and when I say marginally, like, literally marginally - more hitouts but only 13 touches to 12.

No issue with looking to build Sweet up as a player - plenty of rucks have come on in their late 20's, he did okay in the AFL games he did play and he dominated the SANFL in the same manner that Hayes did last year - but he's not demanding selection on form right now...

Most people are suggesting bringing in Sweet to strenghten our forward line, not our ruck. English 50/50 ruck/fwd may slightly weaken our ruck, but adds a missing dimension to our F50. Yes, it's a little of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but what we're paying Paul is far more than Peter's loss.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Most people are suggesting bringing in Sweet to strenghten our forward line, not our ruck. English 50/50 ruck/fwd may slightly weaken our ruck, but adds a missing dimension to our F50. Yes, it's a little of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but what we're paying Paul is far more than Peter's loss.

I'm glad Bevo and not this board picks the team. Sweet as an AFL standard key forward one of the more ridiculous things I've heard.

 

[doggies ftw]

Most people are suggesting bringing in Sweet to strenghten our forward line, not our ruck. English 50/50 ruck/fwd may slightly weaken our ruck, but adds a missing dimension to our F50. Yes, it's a little of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but what we're paying Paul is far more than Peter's loss.

Plus whilst it’s a very promising start from English, let’s be honest it’s one game, one game that goes against pretty much every other game he’s played. And it’s round 1. Let’s try not to run him into the ground just yet, why not support him, let him play 60/70% ruck instead of 90% and let him play at a higher standard for longer.

Sweet means we never go into a CB with Cordy, we have a proper target down forward (whether it’s Sweet or Timmy due to being allowed forward more) I get Timmy might want to be first ruck, I doubt he wants to be lone ruck. But he has to understand there’s only very few clubs where he’d be lone ruck right now, if any clubs at all. And our team right now would be better with him spending larger minutes forward - so that’s where he should be played.

To say Timmy did good against Gawn/Jackson therefore we shouldn’t change anything he will technically play that good by himself against every other opponent in the league who are lesser rucks is just way too simple. Okay so Tim is officially the best ruck in the league now, doesn’t need any help and our problems are solved? That was easy

 

[doggies ftw]

I'm glad Bevo and not this board picks the team. Sweet as an AFL standard key forward one of the more ridiculous things I've heard.

Obviously Sweet in allows Timmy to play 50/50 forward is what he meant - yes that’s better than Cordy

 

[footscray1973]

I'm glad Bevo and not this board picks the team. Sweet as an AFL standard key forward one of the more ridiculous things I've heard.

I'll make a note in future that the only time I quote your posts is to denigrate them, given your recent replies to me, cheers.

Eduit: this from someone who suggests Crozier as a match for Curnow.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Plus whilst it’s a very promising start from English, let’s be honest it’s one game, one game that goes against pretty much every other game he’s played. And it’s round 1. Let’s try not to run him into the ground just yet, why not support him, let him play 60/70% ruck instead of 90% and let him play at a higher standard for longer.

Sweet means we never go into a CB with Cordy, we have a proper target down forward (whether it’s Sweet or Timmy due to being allowed forward more) I get Timmy might want to be first ruck, I doubt he wants to be lone ruck. But he has to understand there’s only very few clubs where he’d be lone ruck right now, if any clubs at all. And our team right now would be better with him spending larger minutes forward - so that’s where he should be played.

To say Timmy did good against Gawn/Jackson therefore we shouldn’t change anything he will technically play that good by himself against every other opponent in the league who are lesser rucks is just way too simple. Okay so Tim is officially the best ruck in the league now, doesn’t need any help and our problems are solved? That was easy

Cordy only went to two centre bounces v Melbourne. It wasn't that big of an issue that he was required to. All reports from the club - both posters over the offseason, and whenever players have talked about him - is that English desperately wants to be the sole ruck, was working hard toward it pre-season, and demonstrated good form. Players often mentioned him this pre-season as a player who was looking like he'd have a big year. And while English played some very good games forward at the start of last year, he hardly looked like a threatening forward both after he had his concussion and after Bruce went down injured last year. Case in point was the semi vs. Brisbane where he was woeful up forward, and we rucked him the entire second half and that helped us get the win. He didn't kick a goal and only took one inside 50 across the four finals games last year. I agree that our forward line looked so terrible that he can't make it worse, but by the logic we can't overreact to one game that English rucked well, we also can't overreact to one game where our forward line also played badly. In the two pre-season games, English rucked more than Martin despite Martin playing in both games, and we looked better when English was through there. If people wanted another key forward in the team, they should have been more upset with Schache being dropped, surely. He hardly played worse than Cordy last week.

 

[Dog 36]

Obviously Sweet in allows Timmy to play 50/50 forward is what he meant - yes that’s better than Cordy

Cannot believe this play a second ruck issue has not been settled by now.

It seems its been years that we have been dealing with it on a weekly basis.

Play English and a support ruck shared between Sweet/Martin

 

[Foxman98]

Cordy only went to two centre bounces v Melbourne. It wasn't that big of an issue that he was required to. All reports from the club - both posters over the offseason, and whenever players have talked about him - is that English desperately wants to be the sole ruck, was working hard toward it pre-season, and demonstrated good form. Players often mentioned him this pre-season as a player who was looking like he'd have a big year. And while English played some very good games forward at the start of last year, he hardly looked like a threatening forward both after he had his concussion and after Bruce went down injured last year. Case in point was the semi vs. Brisbane where he was woeful up forward, and we rucked him the entire second half and that helped us get the win. He didn't kick a goal and only took one inside 50 across the four finals games last year. I agree that our forward line looked so terrible that he can't make it worse, but by the logic we can't overreact to one game that English rucked well, we also can't overreact to one game where our forward line also played badly. In the two pre-season games, English rucked more than Martin despite Martin playing in both games, and we looked better when English was through there. If people wanted another key forward in the team, they should have been more upset with Schache being dropped, surely. He hardly played worse than Cordy last week.

This is the point you seem to be missing. English was cooked in the last quarter because he spent most of the game against Gawn and Jackson who both lifted in the last. He need's a genuine chop out where you have someone competitive, Cordy isn't. No Sweet isn't a proven comodity however he has shown more at VFL level and AFL level to be competent as a forward and a ruck. Martin can't play KPP he is an awful mark and an even worse kick hence the only option left is Sweet.

 

[Foxman98]

I'll make a note in future that the only time I quote your posts is to denigrate them, given your recent replies to me, cheers.

Eduit: this from someone who suggests Crozier as a match for Curnow.

Hey it's not like Curnow would have 10kg on him and rag doll him all day

 

[doggies ftw]

Cordy only went to two centre bounces v Melbourne. It wasn't that big of an issue that he was required to. All reports from the club - both posters over the offseason, and whenever players have talked about him - is that English desperately wants to be the sole ruck, was working hard toward it pre-season, and demonstrated good form. Players often mentioned him this pre-season as a player who was looking like he'd have a big year. And while English played some very good games forward at the start of last year, he hardly looked like a threatening forward both after he had his concussion and after Bruce went down injured last year. Case in point was the semi vs. Brisbane where he was woeful up forward, and we rucked him the entire second half and that helped us get the win. He didn't kick a goal and only took one inside 50 across the four finals games last year. I agree that our forward line looked so terrible that he can't make it worse, but by the logic we can't overreact to one game that English rucked well, we also can't overreact to one game where our forward line also played badly. In the two pre-season games, English rucked more than Martin despite Martin playing in both games, and we looked better when English was through there. If people wanted another key forward in the team, they should have been more upset with Schache being dropped, surely. He hardly played worse than Cordy last week.

All well and good that he trained well and wants first ruck - that’s fine, if he continues to play wel he will hold it. But you’re saying we can’t base anything off one game but at the same time saying Timmy rucked well one out against the best duo in the comp therefor we don’t need to change anything. That’s literally basing things off one game.

I’m basing things off the past 5 years of our ruck division underperforming, plus the 5+ games I watch a week that show how important ruckman are in the modern game. Especially for us one our whole game literally relies upon midfield dominance and we have zero other strings to our bow.

Timmy was great, personally I’d still like a second ruck in the side which improves both our ruckwork and forward line. Let’s remember the alternative is Cordy here - we’re not asking for Sweet to come in over Oscar Allen playing fwd/ruck we’re talking about Zaine flipping Cordy