Opinion Changes vs Geelong

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

Does anyone have access to tickets to the medallion club they’d be willing to sell for this game?

 

[Charlie Bucket]

The only real point I make is the same sort of things were said of Greene but people were wrong. Not trying to compare them as players outside of that. Just a reminder that the average punter usually has no clue about a young player's attributes.

What do you mean by no clue about a players attributes?

You only need to watch a game of footy to identify a players different attributes. Physical, pretty easy as long as you aren’t hard of seeing.
Aggression or lack of etc. Doesn’t take a lot see what a player has going for them. There’s almost nothing in regard to a players physical attributes or contribution to a game that can’t be identified by watching them play.

Commitment and attitude probably a little difficult unless you have inner access at club level.

 

[Foxman98]

I’ve got a question re the Sweet + English discussion.

I posted on here a few months back how if you analyze basically every premiership team for the last 15 years they all have two genuine rucks in the side except the Tigers in one of their premierships.

My question is: are all of those 2nd rucks really great players in their own right or mostly just serviceable and playing a role? And think about their reputation a before they became premiership players. I don’t know many of these players but I would argue that Bulldogs two ruckmen in the 2016 premiership team were only serviceable.

I just think some people on here maintain rediculous standards for playing best 22 football. Every great football team has 3-6 role players. I think Sweet can be that for us. Only time will tell……..unless Bevo immediately drops him and then we never find out .

Melbounre - Gawn Jackson - Both athletic take contested marks, clearances and get 15+ touches a week
Richmond - 1 Ruck
Richmond - 2 Rucks probably the closest you could say to our current set up
West Coast - Lycett/Vardy 2 athletic back up ruckman at the time who spent most of their careers as forwards due to Naitanui
Richmond - 1 Ruck
Western Bulldogs - Boyd/Roughead Forward and Defender converted to make shift ruck with tall mid going 3rd man up


The game has changed a lot since our flag alone and Richmond's set up in 2019 is probably the only 1 marginally close to what we have but in reality it isn't.
You can't afford in this day and age to have a 2nd ruckman for 80% of the time rest forward and have no impact aerially or defensively with pressure sadly for Sweet against the worst team in the comp in a 100 point drubbing he took 1 mark which was in the back 50 from a switch kick and laid 2 tackles whilst only collecting 6 disposals. Their were multiple times West Coast carved through us because he didn't have the speed or agility to stop them.

 

[Optimistic Dog]

Reading this thread seems like we have no chance because Stewart is that good. I pose a question would anyone swap Stewart for a Naughton. Forgetting the age difference not in million years. Naughton is an A grade forward and A plus if he was a better kick for goal. He was certainly heading for A+ as a defender and would be in the conversation with Stewart, Weitering and May as the best defender in the comp. Could Stewart do what Naughton does up forward I highly doubt it.

The other thing posters have forgotten is Stewart is a better player on the narrow Cats ground than anywhere else. Yes I would take Stewart if he was available, would I take him ahead of Naughton no way. Naughton may still end back later in his career if JUH and Sam become A grade forwards.

 

[D Mitchell]

Out :Sweet,McComb
in JUH, Baz.

Khamis is struggling like JUH was but would keep him in to provide ruck relief and as a spare parts player. Could even ruck TOB and put Khamis back.

Give JUH the Stewart job. Will be a great lesson for him and he could make his accointable. I went to the cats game and our midfield should destroy them. Their backline is great so we need to lower our eyes and hit up targets. Stewart does get a lot of cheap meaningless possessions though. Terry’s son is looking good in defence. Is a good mark also so complements Stewart.

Beveridge esque. One 6-goal game in the Twos doesn't count against 6 bemused spectator games. IF Ugle-Hagan must be given a third, undeserved, chance then let it be as a defensive forward on an intercept mark rather than competing with Naughton, a role in which he consistently fails. It'd keep him out of harm's, and Naughton's, way; play to his supposed strength, marking, and force him to undertake 2nd and 3rd efforts, practices he hasn't learned by watching (Naughton). Anyone in his/her right mind would allocate that role to Cordy but the hint is in your username.

 

[BIG_BONTS]

Beveridge esque. One 6-goal game in the Twos doesn't count against 6 bemused spectator games. IF Ugle-Hagan must be given a third, undeserved, chance then let it be as a defensive forward on an intercept mark rather than competing with Naughton, a role in which he consistently fails. It'd keep him out of harm's, and Naughton's, way; play to his supposed strength, marking, and force him to undertake 2nd and 3rd efforts, practices he hasn't learned by watching (Naughton). Anyone in his/her right mind would allocate that role to Cordy but the hint is in your username.

I loved Schache's game last year as a defensive forward - particularly on Allir. Would prefer him in rather than Cordy. Can't see it suiting Marra at all tbh. Marra is more similar to a Gunston type 2/3rd tall.

 

[Doggy]

Beveridge esque. One 6-goal game in the Twos doesn't count against 6 bemused spectator games. IF Ugle-Hagan must be given a third, undeserved, chance then let it be as a defensive forward on an intercept mark rather than competing with Naughton, a role in which he consistently fails. It'd keep him out of harm's, and Naughton's, way; play to his supposed strength, marking, and force him to undertake 2nd and 3rd efforts, practices he hasn't learned by watching (Naughton). Anyone in his/her right mind would allocate that role to Cordy but the hint is in your username.

What's your beef with JUH it seems personal

 

[doggies ftw]

What's your beef with JUH it seems personal

Slept with his granddaughter I reckon

 

[X_box_X]

I feel unsettled and anxious about this match. This is normal. I usually feel this way prior to playing Geelong.

The thought of losing to these pricks frightens the living daylights out of me.

I was vomiting in the lead up to last year's match against them. I had sleepless nights. I was an absolute mess on the Friday. I couldn't concentrate and I felt sick in the stomach. No other team generates those unpleasant feelings.

Losing to them last year was just as bad as losing the Grand Final. I felt like my heart was ripped from my body.

Please don't lose to them again. Pleaseeee.

 

[BIG_BONTS]

Matty Scarlett is pulling back on the jumper this weekend to take 10,000 intercept marks again

 

[Kennel Master]

We are a better team with two Rucks and Sweet should be in until someone better comes along.
He allows English more scope to do his thing around the ground.
Even if he halves a contest our midfield reaps the benefit.
It would be great if he was an athlete with good skills, but he's not.
Even so, he adds more to the team than his individual stats would suggest.

KM

 

[Foxman98]

We are a better team with two Rucks and Sweet should be in until someone better comes along.
He allows English more scope to do his thing around the ground.
Even if he halves a contest our midfield reaps the benefit.
It would be great if he was an athlete with good skills, but he's not.
Even so, he adds more to the team than his individual stats would suggest.

KM

What does he allow English to do that a taller forward doesn't?
All he adds is average tap work, his negatives include no forward craft, no speed/agility, no marking ability and a lack of ball winning.

 

[Angak]

I pose a question would anyone swap Stewart for a Naughton. Forgetting the age difference not in million years. Naughton is an A grade forward and A plus if he was a better kick for goal. He was certainly heading for A+ as a defender and would be in the conversation with Stewart, Weitering and May as the best defender in the comp. Could Stewart do what Naughton does up forward I highly doubt it.

There is no key back I'd swap for Naughton. I'd also the same about Curnow, King & Mackay. These players are worth thier weight in gold.

 

[Del165892]

I feel unsettled and anxious about this match. This is normal. I usually feel this way prior to playing Geelong.

The thought of losing to these pricks frightens the living daylights out of me.

I was vomiting in the lead up to last year's match against them. I had sleepless nights. I was an absolute mess on the Friday. I couldn't concentrate and I felt sick in the stomach. No other team generates those unpleasant feelings.

Losing to them last year was just as bad as losing the Grand Final. I felt like my heart was ripped from my body.

Please don't lose to them again. Pleaseeee.

Every year I get my heart broken and vow not to watch the next time we play the Cats. Then the pain fades and is replaced by naive optimism, I go into the next game with hope, have it crushed and start the cycle again.

 

[Angak]

View attachment 1412453


This is Rounds 1-6 in 2021, where we won every game. As you can see, English played between 18-38% ruck, with Martin playing the bulk. English is significantly more durable than 2021 Martin was, and can probably play at the high end around 80% ruck time. We only need our second ruck to cover around 20% ruck time per game.

I guess the question is then: do we sacrifice 20% of ruck contests by having Schache/Khamis/Cordy ruck for us? Or do we sacrifice having a 22nd player able to contribute around the ground?

I'd only support picking the solitary ruck if

A) you can select 3 tall marking targets that all consistently pose a aerial threat and kick regular goals. Or
B) you can bank on a player doing a defensive lockdown job on the elite intercepting defender like Lever/Allir - Not many have this variety either.

We should be doing everything we can to maximise the midfield advantage that we have. First priority should be to win clearances/control territory. And the centre bounces are now even more important than ever. Successful teams this year like the dees/carl/freo all very strong in that area. And they all have 2 viable ruck options when fully fit.

Not to mention dominating centre bounces means that we have more time for our defensive to setup and more numbers behind the ball when required.

On the weekend English played 80% game time in the ruck. Which meant that Sweet was either forward/bench for 80% of the game. Sweet is a non-factor as a forward which means we are playing with a man down for basically 80% of game time. This was also English's first game back, I'd imagine his % of game will increase to 85-90%.

So the argument some on here are making ( correct me if I'm wrong) is that having Sweet play ruck for 10-15% of game time over a Buku/Cordy/O'Brien etc. is so much more significantly better that we are willing to play with a man short for the other 85-90% of game time Sweet is not required to ruck ?

This risk vs reward of playing Sweet just doesn't add up. Not to mention that he doesn't apply any forward half pressure so we are more susceptible to conceding on transition.

 

[Ash1337]

On the weekend English played 80% game time in the ruck. Which meant that Sweet was either forward/bench for 80% of the game. Sweet is a non-factor as a forward which means we are playing with a man down for basically 80% of game time. This was also English's first game back, I'd imagine his % of game will increase to 85-90%.

So the argument some on here are making ( correct me if I'm wrong) is that having Sweet play ruck for 10-15% of game time over a Buku/Cordy/O'Brien etc. is so much more significantly better that we are willing to play with a man short for the other 85-90% of game time Sweet is not required to ruck ?

This risk vs reward of playing Sweet just doesn't add up. Not to mention that he doesn't apply any forward half pressure so we are more susceptible to conceding on transition.

While this is true the dogs have a short break and played in WA so English may not be able to back up that game time against cats this week. Don't throw Sweet out just because the experiment didn't work the first week.

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

We need the extra height and bulk of Sweet simply for our defenders to help out with Hawkins.

Will make a big difference to English if he is not spending all his time covering for our outmatched defenders.

Also will cause Geelongs small defence some issues.

 

[Angak]

We need the extra height and bulk of Sweet simply for our defenders to help out with Hawkins.

Will make a big difference to English if he is not spending all his time covering for our outmatched defenders.

Also will cause Geelongs small defence some issues.

This is a non issue. Hawkins only rucks in the forward line, in which case Keith will take ruck contests. Naughton will take the ruck contests in our forward line.

 

[ScottyDogg]

What does he allow English to do that a taller forward doesn't?
All he adds is average tap work, his negatives include no forward craft, no speed/agility, no marking ability and a lack of ball winning.

He can play ruck.

How many times do we need to play a single ruck before the evidence of it not working will be sufficient for you guys?

We have had two really dominant stretches of football in Beverages time at the club. They both involved playing two recognized rucks or having one ruck and third man up and us dominating the midfield as a result.

Our worst football under Beveridge aligns with us only playing one ruck.

 

[Angak]

While this is true the dogs have a short break and played in WA so English may not be able to back up that game time against cats this week. Don't throw Sweet out just because the experiment didn't work the first week.

This is must win game. I'm just not comfortable playing Sweet in the forward line on small chance he might show something the he has never been able to show before.

 

[BIG_BONTS]

On the weekend English played 80% game time in the ruck. Which meant that Sweet was either forward/bench for 80% of the game. Sweet is a non-factor as a forward which means we are playing with a man down for basically 80% of game time. This was also English's first game back, I'd imagine his % of game will increase to 85-90%.

So the argument some on here are making ( correct me if I'm wrong) is that having Sweet play ruck for 10-15% of game time over a Buku/Cordy/O'Brien etc. is so much more significantly better that we are willing to play with a man short for the other 85-90% of game time Sweet is not required to ruck ?

This risk vs reward of playing Sweet just doesn't add up. Not to mention that he doesn't apply any forward half pressure so we are more susceptible to conceding on transition.

I guess we could prove or disprove the benefit with stats - does anyone know if during the periods of English not rucking are we scored against more or less? Win or lose more clearances? Correlated with significant changes in momentum? Could justify Sweet if for example we’re defensively better 1-2+ goals and kick 1-2 more goals

 

[Ash1337]

He can play ruck.

How many times do we need to play a single ruck before the evidence of it not working will be sufficient for you guys?

We have had two really dominant stretches of football in Beverages time at the club. They both involved playing two recognized rucks or having one ruck and third man up and us dominating the midfield as a result.

Our worst football under Beveridge aligns with us only playing one ruck.

Agree. Dogs best is with a 2 ruck tandem. Even Martin wasn't that good forward. As long as Sweet can keep a defender occupied when goes forward that's enough.

 

[Del165892]

How many times do we need to play a single ruck before the evidence of it not working will be sufficient for you guys?

There are so many explanatory variables that determine whether you win or lose a particular match. Whether or not we play one or two rucks on the day is one of probably hundreds of significant variables. The old saying that "correlation does not imply causation" is very relevant in this case. Basically what I'm saying is that there's no sufficient "evidence" that playing two rucks makes us a better side. It might, and I'd be open to seeing any real analysis that points to that conclusion, but simply looking at W/L is not sufficient unless you had a sample of games in the thousands.

And actually if you looked at our Win/Loss under Bevo when we have played a single ruck then it's probably still going to be positive or close to even. From memory we even played with Josh Dunkley as our primary ruck against Melbourne in 2020 and we won that game.

 

[Kennel Master]

What does he allow English to do that a taller forward doesn't?
All he adds is average tap work, his negatives include no forward craft, no speed/agility, no marking ability and a lack of ball winning.

I think taller forwards taking the ruck duties (Cordy for example) puts everyone under pressure.
At times on Saturday Sweet rucked while English sat behind or in front of the ball where he was able to impact the game.

Sweet is limited I know, but I believe he is a much better option in the ruck than a Cordy or Dinkley.

Just my thoughts.

KM

 

[ScottyDogg]

There are so many explanatory variables that determine whether you win or lose a particular match. Whether or not we play one or two rucks on the day is one of probably hundreds of significant variables. The old saying that "correlation does not imply causation" is very relevant in this case. Basically what I'm saying is that there's no sufficient "evidence" that playing two rucks makes us a better side. It might, and I'd be open to seeing any real analysis that points to that conclusion, but simply looking at W/L is not sufficient unless you had a sample of games in the thousands.

You don’t think it’s more then correlation that playing two rucks for the first half of last year allowed our midfield to dominate and freed up English to be a scary threat around the ground? And when he was going solo for the 2nd half of the year our midfield struggled and so did he.

I’m not saying it was the entire causation but pretty important.