Preview Changes vs GWS

[alex_is_on_fire]

The only explanation would be that Craigy thought Dal Santo's elite disposal would hurt us more.

Who was on Harvey?

Wasn't Doughty out second tagger during that period. He didn't move to a half back flank after Hart and Tourney were retired off.

 

[Tex200]

What are you on about? How many back pockets have won finals for their teams? Finals aren't won by the players in the 15-22 range. They are won by elite footballers. Look through the list of Norm Smith Medals - with the exception of Shaun Hart all are elite.

Do yourself a favour - just look through write ups of the last 15 grandfinals. See what players are important and which aren't.

Hawthorn didn't win the 2013 flag because their fringe players were better than ours. They won because their elite players were better than ours. As a club we need to be all about assembling the best 10-15 A grade players. These 10-15 are ten times more important than players 16-22.

Gary Ayres - admittedly he was moved into the guts just for GF's, but he was a back pocket player who only won 1 club champion award and nothing else.

 

[Vader]

huludicidal is correct - Shirley didn't play on Harvey, who was by that stage getting to the end of his career and hadn't had a whole lot of impact in most of the games he played that year (at least, by Harvey's standards). That game was Harvey's best of the entire season, by a country mile - no doubt aided by Craig's decision not to tag him. He was allowed to run around like an unregistered dog.

Shirley may or may not have been tagging Dal Santo - all I know is that he definitely wasn't on Robert Harvey.

Only an irrational fool would blame Shirley for not tagging him, given that it was Craig's decision and Shirley had nothing to do with it.

 

[Vader]

Who was on Harvey?

Wasn't Doughty out second tagger during that period. He didn't move to a half back flank after Hart and Tourney were retired off.

Craig didn't assign a tagger to him at all. He let him roam around like an unregistered dog. Effectively he went head-to-head with Thompson and won the game for St Kilda.

 

[AFC979810]

That's ok AFC 979810

We will keep playing mediocre players and continue to achieve **** all.

That's ok. If we have Shirley and doughty as our bench mark, we will be like Fitzroy.

Whats ok? The fact that you made a ludicrous statement? The fact that your ludicrous statement was 100% wrong (and shown to be wrong)?

Tell me more about how Doughty lost us finals. You can't keep throwing out misinformed bullshit.

I agree that as a club we have been too slow to make decisions on players and during the Craig era we were reluctant to move on some players to give games to our younger players. But Doughty does not belong in this group. He simply doesn't.

The example of Doughty as a mediocre player is where you lost it.

237 games
Best 22 under 3 different coaches (all 3 made it to prelims with doughty in their best 22).
2 time top 10 best and fairest
3 time top 5 best and fairest

You are so full of it is riduculous.

 

[huludicidal]

That's ok. You keep your dream alive.

However, 4 finals in 15 years suggests we keep too many crap players, too long. And we are continuing to do it this year.

Completely agree with you here.

I just thought Shirley was a good tagger (remember, taggers aren't flashy types, they're Ryan Crowley's and Brent Macaffer' with virtually no skill) in his day. Clearly you weren't a fan. That's fine.

My explanation for the finals stuff is a lot more focused on our 'gun' players going missing and our coaching in those games.


If it was up to me, Petrenko, Martin, Jaensch, McKernan, Graham (lol) would have all been delisted by now (Jaensch is now playing well so props to him for that, but he would have been long gone if I was running things).

Delisting these present day duds has been made more difficult by the whole Tippett scandal though. Hopefully in years to come we can make the hard decisions on the dead wood.

 

[AFC979810]

Gary Ayres - admittedly he was moved into the guts just for GF's, but he was a back pocket player who only won 1 club champion award and nothing else.

Fair call. But when Gary Ayres played it was like a different sport.

 

[huludicidal]

Craig didn't assign a tagger to him at all. He let him roam around like an unregistered dog. Effectively he went head-to-head with Thompson and won the game for St Kilda.

This. Finally someone who watched the bloody thing!

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

So what is it?

In 2005 - Robert Shirley was coming to the end of his career.

In 2005 - Gary Ablett Jn would have been a 20 year old, just starting his time as a Geelong midfielder.

Allegedly he said Shirley was the best tagger he had faced but at that time, he wasn't good enough to tag a premier midfielder.

Someone us telling porkie pies.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

This. Finally someone who watched the bloody thing!

Don't be so rude. You have only insinuated be watches games because he agrees with you.

That's complete BS that others don't watch because they don't agree with you.

Still doesn't explain how or why or his we have only won 4 finals in 15 years if we have so many awesome players that can not get dropped.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

Craig didn't assign a tagger to him at all. He let him roam around like an unregistered dog. Effectively he went head-to-head with Thompson and won the game for St Kilda.

Well, you don't need to get me started on the awesomeness of Saint Neil.

 

[huludicidal]

So what is it?

In 2005 - Robert Shirley was coming to the end of his career.

In 2005 - Gary Ablett Jn would have been a 20 year old, just starting his time as a Geelong midfielder.

Allegedly he said Shirley was the best tagger he had faced but at that time, he wasn't good enough to tag a premier midfielder.

Someone us telling porkie pies.

FFS.

Shirley tagged the opponent our coach considered to be the most dangerous midfielder EVERY WEEK.

That week, the coach decided that wasn't Harvey.

Shirley played until 2009. It was in either 08 or 09 that Ablett named him as one of the best taggers.


Was Chris Judd not a worthy opponent?? His record on Judd (in Judd's best years as a footballer) is absolutely unparalleled.

 

[Vader]

So what is it?

In 2005 - Robert Shirley was coming to the end of his career.

In 2005 - Gary Ablett Jn would have been a 20 year old, just starting his time as a Geelong midfielder.

Allegedly he said Shirley was the best tagger he had faced but at that time, he wasn't good enough to tag a premier midfielder.

Someone us telling porkie pies.

More misinformed rubbish? Craig made the decision to send his best tagger to the player he deemed to be St Kilda's most dangerous. By this stage of his career, that player wasn't Robert Harvey. Rob Harvey took advantage of Craig's decision and ripped us a new one, turning back the clock in the process.

Which part of that is too hard for you to understand? Or are you just too blinded by your illogical and incorrect agenda to accept reality?

 

[Vader]

Don't be so rude. You have only insinuated be watches games because he agrees with you.

That's complete BS that others don't watch because they don't agree with you.

Still doesn't explain how or why or his we have only won 4 finals in 15 years if we have so many awesome players that can not get dropped.

You may be right.. but it's evident from your own posting that you haven't seen the game, or clearly can't remember what you did see. I highly recommend quitting while you're behind.

 

[Hodgy]

That's ok AFC 979810

We will keep playing mediocre players and continue to achieve **** all.

That's ok. If we have Shirley and doughty as our bench mark, we will be like Fitzroy.

I think you're onto something here. All we have to do is get 22 elite A grade players to the club and we will have a great team. Can't think why no one has thought of it before. Let's start by trading in Ablett, Selwood, Stevie J, Fyfe and Watson at the end of the year for some of these hack B graders we've got and we will have a great midfield. That's a start at least and maybe just draft 2 gun key forwards and an elite ruckman in November, get Frawley and Gibbs in free agency and get the rest in the pre season draft. Simple

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

Whats ok? The fact that you made a ludicrous statement? The fact that your ludicrous statement was 100% wrong (and shown to be wrong)?

Tell me more about how Doughty lost us finals. You can't keep throwing out misinformed bullshit.

I agree that as a club we have been too slow to make decisions on players and during the Craig era we were reluctant to move on some players to give games to our younger players. But Doughty does not belong in this group. He simply doesn't.

The example of Doughty as a mediocre player is where you lost it.

237 games
Best 22 under 3 different coaches (all 3 made it to prelims with doughty in their best 22).
2 time top 10 best and fairest
3 time top 5 best and fairest

You are so full of it is riduculous.

Sorry but you can quote stats and best and fairest results all you like but he was a very mediocre player given chance after chance.

Terrible player who would not have made any other top 6 side during that time.

 

[huludicidal]

Don't be so rude. You have only insinuated be watches games because he agrees with you.

That's complete BS that others don't watch because they don't agree with you.

Still doesn't explain how or why or his we have only won 4 finals in 15 years if we have so many awesome players that can not get dropped.

No, anyone who watched the game (and remembers it) knows that Robert Harvey wasn't being tagged by anyone. It was a massive talking point during and after the game.

You decided to state that Shirley was tagging him. I merely pointed out that this wasn't the case, and you then began ranting about the coach clearly not having enough confidence in him to send him to Harvey.

Dal Santo was a pretty bloody dangerous player in 05 too. Would require confidence in a player to give him that job. Turned out that Neil made the wrong call.

The end.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

I think you're onto something here. All we have to do is get 22 elite A grade players to the club and we will have a great team. Can't think why no one has thought of it before. Let's start by trading in Ablett, Selwood, Stevie J, Fyfe and Watson at the end of the year for some of these hack B graders we've got and we will have a great midfield. That's a start at least and maybe just draft 2 gun key forwards and an elite ruckman in November, get Frawley and Gibbs in free agency and get the rest in the pre season draft. Simple

So, why can Hawthorn, Geelong, Collingwood, Fremantle do it?

Yet - we have a very different story to out finals record. Maybe, I'm just making this up.

4 in 15 years. Awesome.

 

[Vader]

Well, you don't need to get me started on the awesomeness of Saint Neil.

Quite happy for you to blame Craig for this one. It's just your decision to blame Shirley that I object to.

Craig made a decision as to which of St Kilda's midfielders he deemed to be the most dangerous. It's easy to say that he got it wrong with the benefit of hindsight. It was certainly blindingly obvious during the game that he should have moved a tagger onto Harvey. For whatever reason, he chose not to - and history will be his judge when it comes to the result.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

No, anyone who watched the game (and remembers it) knows that Robert Harvey wasn't being tagged by anyone. It was a massive talking point during and after the game.

You decided to state that Shirley was tagging him. I merely pointed out that this wasn't the case, and you then began ranting about the coach clearly not having enough confidence in him to send him to Harvey.

Dal Santo was a pretty bloody dangerous player in 05 too. Would require confidence in a player to give him that job. Turned out that Neil made the wrong call.

The end.

Didn't you suggest something about Gary Ablett saying he was the best tagger he's played on?

At that time, Ablett was 20 years old. So, Shirley improved after that point, Gary Ablett was just saying a name or the coach didn't rate his tagging?

Vader you can answer that as well.

 

[knobby]

I do remember Ablett saying that and most of the Footy Show hosts fell off their chairs, they had to do some research to find out who Robert Shirley was !

At the time of the 2005 final, I seem to remember the thinking with Harvey was that yes he got a lot of the footy but wasn't damaging with it, like a Dal Santo, Ball, Hayes could perhaps some others as well. That certainly bit us on the a....

 

[Vader]

Sorry but you can quote stats and best and fairest results all you like but he was a very mediocre player given chance after chance.

Wrong

Terrible player

Wrong

who would not have made any other top 6 side during that time.

Wrong.

3-strikes and you're out? Or do you wish to try again, in a vain attempt to improve on your 0% hit rate with your posting in this thread today?

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

More misinformed rubbish? Craig made the decision to send his best tagger to the player he deemed to be St Kilda's most dangerous. By this stage of his career, that player wasn't Robert Harvey. Rob Harvey took advantage of Craig's decision and ripped us a new one, turning back the clock in the process.

Which part of that is too hard for you to understand? Or are you just too blinded by your illogical and incorrect agenda to accept reality?

That...

Shirley didn't play on Harvey, who was by that stage getting to the end of his career and hadn't had a whole lot of impact in most of the games he played that year (at least, by Harvey's standards).

 

[Mckaye17]

Sorry for my mistake in the previous post, I honestly thought Martin played in the reserves game against Sturt on saturday then flew over to play St Kilda. Ease up on the troll stuff just simply an honest mistake...

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

Wrong

Wrong

Wrong.

3-strikes and you're out? Or do you wish to try again, in a vain attempt to improve on your 0% hit rate with your posting in this thread today?

Clearly you didn't watch him play.

Yes, I'll play that game as well.