Countering the Don't Argue

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Come in with your own don't argue.

Could result in a huge high five if it's well timed.

What if if was someone like Kosi?

All he seemed to do over his career was hit or poke his own team mates in the head / eyes.

 

[Sea Bird]

I just posted this in another thread specifically in regard to Martin but some of it is relevant generally so I'll post it here:

Those saying "just tackle him by the hips" - his hips/legs/arse are stronger than his fend off. Players literally just fall to the ground when they try to tackle him around the waist. Look at the Geelong player who attempted it before he hit Grigg in the square in the last quarter. He actually gets 2 hands on him around the hip area but the effect it had on Martin was akin to a light gust of wind.

Those saying "tackle him by the arm and destroy his shoulder" - a lot of the time his arm retracts faster than when he extends it to make contact with the chest, leaving you no time to grab it. It's also really hard to apply any strength to a tackle when you've got a hand on your chest and you're being forced backwards.

After watching him do it for the last 8 years, there's definitely a lot of technique involved (as opposed to just brute strength). Often he will wait until the would be tackler has one foot off the ground and then he fends them off as their centre of gravity is nowhere near optimal with only one foot on the ground (think his 'fly swat' on Tim Taranto in first GWS game this year)

The best way to counter it is to gang tackle. He has been caught many times this way, probably at least once a game this year. It's just that, as another poster alluded to earlier, he will often draw 2 or 3 tacklers and then suddenly we have 2 or 3 loose players on the outside of the stoppage. He shoots a handball out and we are away.

I agree with you. Strictly if you were one on one I think your offensive options are either instigate getting hit high (not guaranteed to get a free) or grab & hang on to the arm (easier said than done).

Dusty specifically though, I think he's so good at them he looks to do it everytime - it seems instinctive now that he takes a step or two to compose himself and then whack.

What I've seen done effectively - whether by design or fortune I'm not sure - is the person coming towards him ends up taking his focus and he is susceptible from a tackle from behind.

I think once he beats someone one on one the team structure is very vulnerable - and he's a great kick. So I'd actually try and stay off him a little just so I can don't get completely beaten and can pressure the kick; and if in the act of staying in front a team member grabs him from behind - bonus.

 

[HairyO]

2 choices: Chuck Norris round house kick to the head, or Patrick Swayze Road House round house kick to the head.

Or grab the arm and drag down forcing him to kick off balance. At least it becomes a contest then.

 

[Nostradumbass]

Come in with your own don't argue.

Could result in a huge high five if it's well timed.

Lol....

 

[Mningasimisonda]

Literally the most ******ed thing i've seen on bigfooty.

Like asking why is a guy allowed tackle players with the ball but you can't do that without the ball it's a free kick so why is it allowed to happen when a footballer happens to have the football.

Learn to football

You're not worth any more time than that comment

Thanks.

It's actually worth asking. We have one player doing it and are celebrating it at the moment. But if lots of players start doing it there has to be some better rules around it, because you shouldn't be allowed to punch or hit a tackler as an evasion technique.

I'll admit a lot of the time it's a push away not a punch or hit with Dusty, but in the one which a Richmond poster posted and I highlighted he actually hits the tackler in the chest. It's not ridiculous to suggest that players be able to tackle knowing the player they tackle won't be allowed to just hit them.

 

[Wallaby]

Martin actually does get caught quite a bit doing the fend. If he does it when he's standing still, or hasn't developed a full head of steam, or the tackler comes at him from an awkward angle, they do get him. When this happens, Martin has developed a little dinky chip kick, where he drops the ball on his foot with one hand and flicks it in the direction of a teammate. It's usually not very effective - it's just like a rushed, pressured handpass where the player HAS to dispose of it.

The fend-off looks great, but is slightly overrated. As much as anything, it enables the player with the ball to change direction quickly and maintain balance. Generally, if the tackler falls over, it's as much because HE has had to change direction suddenly to match Martin's movement and is slightly off-balance - then he just needs a little shove to send him to the ground. But you see would-be tacklers fall over when missing a tackle all the time. Plenty of players can dodge tackles without doing a fend.

Still looks great. But every Richmond fan has that uneasy fear that one day an opponent will get a good grab of Martin's arm and drag him down onto his shoulder.

 

[Gydafud]

Best option with Dusty would be going the professional foul. Tackle low at the legs and trip him as he runs away. They get the free, but at least it might hold up play.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Toby Greene - like kick to the head.

 

[Superduperouzel]

Best , most ruthless tackler in the league. Who is that by the way ?

 

[Superduperouzel]

Martin actually does get caught quite a bit doing the fend. If he does it when he's standing still, or hasn't developed a full head of steam, or the tackler comes at him from an awkward angle, they do get him. When this happens, Martin has developed a little dinky chip kick, where he drops the ball on his foot with one hand and flicks it in the direction of a teammate. It's usually not very effective - it's just like a rushed, pressured handpass where the player HAS to dispose of it.

The fend-off looks great, but is slightly overrated. As much as anything, it enables the player with the ball to change direction quickly and maintain balance. Generally, if the tackler falls over, it's as much because HE has had to change direction suddenly to match Martin's movement and is slightly off-balance - then he just needs a little shove to send him to the ground. But you see would-be tacklers fall over when missing a tackle all the time. Plenty of players can dodge tackles without doing a fend.

Still looks great. But every Richmond fan has that uneasy fear that one day an opponent will get a good grab of Martin's arm and drag him down onto his shoulder.

I think it will be a player come through that is as ruthless, unrelenting, hardcore as Dusty to take him down. I think of it as Carey / Jakovich type scenario. So far no one can stop a Dusty don´t argue.

 

[Tigers_fan24]

So technically what's the difference between a don't argue and a strike to the body? Is it that you can hit someone in the chest if you have the ball?

Just asking seeing Duncan got 2 down to 1 and Dusty punches people in the chest every week.

It's not like he didn't hurt the opposition player in this one that was shown earlier in the thread.

Haha holy shit you sound like a bitter sook

 

[ashep]

Best , most ruthless tackler in the league. Who is that by the way ?

Parker is a machine and Heeney would be up there for brutality.

Also if you're under 80kg watch out for Mummy.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

Chris Benoit - crippler cross-face.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Drop body, make sure the palm gets you in the chin/face instead of the chest

Win free kick.

Nice theory, but have you seen how many high fend offs Dusty and Buddy get away with? They almost never call a high fend off.
I love seeing a good fend off, but it needs to be called when it's high and it rarely is.

 

[Rance2Mewtwo]

Couldn't you just use your arm to raise the DA up into your face and throw your head back ?

I once thought this might work.

Then I realised it could potentially decapitate someone if they tried.

Dusty is too powerful and you might break your own neck attempting to direct his arm into your face, especially since he "pushes" at you right before contact.

You have no way of knowing when his arm will push a further 30cm towards your head.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I agree with you. Strictly if you were one on one I think your offensive options are either instigate getting hit high (not guaranteed to get a free) or grab & hang on to the arm (easier said than done).

Dusty specifically though, I think he's so good at them he looks to do it everytime - it seems instinctive now that he takes a step or two to compose himself and then whack.

What I've seen done effectively - whether by design or fortune I'm not sure - is the person coming towards him ends up taking his focus and he is susceptible from a tackle from behind.

I think once he beats someone one on one the team structure is very vulnerable - and he's a great kick. So I'd actually try and stay off him a little just so I can don't get completely beaten and can pressure the kick; and if in the act of staying in front a team member grabs him from behind - bonus.

A lot of replies on here advocating grabbing the arm and pulling. I'm not convinced this works so well in that the defender's momentum is toward to ball carrier, and this involves stopping dead and starting to pull in a different direction to which he's just been travelling at full speed. Not very ergonomic.

I'm particularly interested in the combined deflection/continue straight on to a bundling tackle round the torso, because it keeps forward momentum going for the defender.

I guess pulling the arm down to the ground is a deflection of sorts, and might work. Certainly don't see pulling the arm back towards the defender in a sort of rowing action as being a very poised position for him to put himself in.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Nice theory, but have you seen how many high fend offs Dusty and Buddy get away with? They almost never call a high fend off.
I love seeing a good fend off, but it needs to be called when it's high and it rarely is.

Because shoulder level is fine. It looks off when the palms high so it looks like the fingers are neck level. Doesnt mean its hugh. Because the force is going though the torso. It would be pointless fending off the throat. Palming of the throat isnt going to throw off a players gravity its either going to slip so you want to get them clean center of the chest when they are on one foot. To get them "high" means horrific technique and pointless. You might as well just use your elbow. Its why dusty is so good he never gets anyone high really. . Its just gonna hurt like shit they do slip high. However its one of the things called absolutely correctly on afl. If they staryed calling high because

Make sure the palm is landing on the chin. Throw head back. Clutch face. Win the joel selwood "hard ball"

 

[meltiger]

Counteringa quality fend is not as easy as it sounds.

Look at one the best exponents of it in Australian sport - Greg Inglis.

Blokes who have spent their entire lives being taught how to tackle cannot stop him when he's on. Unless you go in for the tackle fast and at pace, going low doesn't work you just get pushed toward the ground. Obviously we see the impact going high has whenever Dustin does it.

A hard tag where he hasn't got time to set himself for it is probably the only way.

 

[Mningasimisonda]

Haha holy shit you sound like a bitter sook

Really?

I was just bringing something up that I didn't even think of until this was posted as a classic don't argue in this thread. Dusty clearly just hits the guy.

Not everyone who doesn't do what you want them to do is a bitter Richmond hater

 

[Brad Goodman]

Grab the arm and use it to hoist yourself in to hurricanrana?

 

[THECHIEFTON]

Really?

I was just bringing something up that I didn't even think of until this was posted as a classic don't argue in this thread. Dusty clearly just hits the guy.

Not everyone who doesn't do what you want them to do is a bitter Richmond hater

It's a push in the chest with a open hand. Bit different to a strike.

 

[Banyo Bloods]

Saw Josh Kennedy grab Dusty’s wrist once which was effective but he still managed a dinky kick. You would first need a pretty strong grip to grab and hold his arm and completely drop to bring him down which is a risk if you let go then you have lost your feet in doing so.

Perhaps losing the focus of the tackle and make punching the ball out of his carrying hand your focus might get a spillage if doing so makes it harder for him to fend.

All pretty fanciful though, if players haven’t made inroads yet whilst knowing he is going to do it, then not much hope. The ego of these guys would take a hit getting fended off but their ego also probably spurs them on to be the guy that can bring him down and using their own strength to do so.

 

[ziad]

Parker is a machine and Heeney would be up there for brutality.

Also if you're under 80kg watch out for Mummy.

I should be safe then

 

[Mningasimisonda]

It's a push in the chest with a open hand. Bit different to a strike.

You're right actually. Could swear it looked like a strike at full speed. Apologies. Ignore my idiocy above.



The acceleration is pretty awesome in slo-mo.

 

[Banyo Bloods]

You're right actually. Could swear it looked like a strike at full speed. Apologies. Ignore my idiocy above.

View attachment 414692

The acceleration is pretty awesome in slo-mo.

Opportunity to whack the ball out of his hands there rather than tackle