Does it take too long for clubs to rebuild their lists?

[ioppolo]

6 years is a long time out of finals. I feel like most well-run clubs do it within 5. The other 6+ out of finals clubs being Melbourne, Saint Kilda and Carlton off the top of my head.

Brisbane 2010-2018

 

[Purple_Turtle]

Brisbane 2010-2018

Gold Coast since the start.

Main point being that all these clubs had significant issues.

 

[Olian]

Turns out if you're Sydney the answer is no. Jury out on teams that don't have academies.

All teams have academies so jury is in.

 

[Purple_Turtle]

All teams have academies so jury is in.

Sure. We'll just grab Motlop in the first round to fill a need on our list and... wait, we can't.

 

[Shannon M]

A lot of coaches are incentivised to string the rebuild out as long as possible.

Look at Brendon Bolton that was a masterclass in pulling the wool over peoples eyes for 3.5 seasons. He should have been gone 18 months in. Probably half a season in really.

If you perform poorly in the first or second year of an appointment you pin it on the previous coach. You need to have expectations as low as possible in that first 1-2 years and constantly talk about success 5 years into the future if everyone takes some pain in the short term.

What you don't want is to come sprinting out of the blocks at the start of your appointment and show you can be competitive because then you actually have to be accountable for your results from the start.

That's where it went bad for Shaw at North. When he took over in 2019 he immediately had success making things very simple for the players. Something went wrong in 2020 they won 3 games, so the only way to save himself was to just take a machete to the playing the list and basically give himself a 3 year grace period with the new "rebuild".

 

[Mr.X]

And also Richmond from 2002-12

Wallace setup them up fairly well, solid foundation for Hardwick to work from

 

[Stottzy]

Should a priority pick be handed out more? It definitely helped St Kilda, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Collingwood rebuild faster in the 2000's. I understand tanking was the biggest issue with it, but it certainly fast tracked rebuilds.

 

[PhatBoy]

As an equal fan of both codes this is one aspect where for a spectator league has it over AFL.

partly it’s because of the reduced numbers on the field so a gun player can have a bigger impact in league but for as much as I hate the transit lounge nature of league with all the player movements, it’s rare for a club to not have the hope that within 2 years of starting a good recruitment and development phase, they can be finals bound and thereabouts in premiership contention

 

[Freomaniac]

Should a priority pick be handed out more? It definitely helped St Kilda, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Collingwood rebuild faster in the 2000's. I understand tanking was the biggest issue with it, but it certainly fast tracked rebuilds.

depends....in 2015, they finished top of the ladder and lost a prelim final.

Freo went 0-10 in 2016 and finished 16th with a 4-18 record, They had no 2nd rounder as that got traded off the previous year. Freo had to get creative on the trade table.

In 2017 and 2018, freo finished both seasons 14th with 8 wins and 14 losses. No 2nd rounder in 2017 and 2018 as they were traded. Again, freo had to get creative in the 2017 and 2018 trade periods.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Hawthorn haven't won a flag for 6 long years. Think we might be due a PP.

 

[Freomaniac]

Hawthorn haven't won a flag for 6 long years. Think we might be due a PP.

freo has not won a flag since.......

 

[Freomaniac]

‘so you don’t need a hard rebuild

look at port in this link. 9 years since the rebuild in 11-12. Finished higher than 5th for the first time 8 yrs later in 2020. Played finals in that time but were they really serious?

AFL Tables - Port Adelaide - Season Summary

afltables.com

Port were horrible from 2008-12, especially that 2011-12 period.

But then you talked about ports 2015-19 Period when they made finals only in 2017.

They should of made finals every year from 2015-19, most port Adelaide fans would agree on that.

 

[Schauermann]

It is probably easier to keep a good team good then building a new team from the scratch. You only need to inject 1-2 decent players, to replace trades and retiments every year (won't last forever, but can go on quite some time). To rebuilt sucessfully you need to get alot things right.

 

[Pessimistic]

It is probably easier to keep a good team good then building a new team from the scratch. You only need to inject 1-2 decent players, to replace trades and retiments every year (won't last forever, but can go on quite some time). To rebuilt sucessfully you need to get alot things right.

‘yes I believe the hard rebuild proponents think they have orthodoxy, but without early priority picks and the 2001 super draft, would the theory stand up?

 

[TigerTime88]

Wallace setup them up fairly well, solid foundation for Hardwick to work from

He didn’t mean to, he was trying to make finals but he just built a crap team lol.

 

[The wily weagle]

It all depends on how astutely a club drafts.

Richmond, and now Melbourne, make great case studies for when happens when you screw up your drafting for a long time, and then what can happen when you finally get it right.

I mean Richard Tambling over Lance Franklin......

 

[BallaratBulldog]

If you have a shit coach you are no chance. Peter Rhode from 2002-2004. The side wasn’t even that bad, you still hd West Johnson Grant Smith and so on. Suddenly Rodney Eade comes along and 2005-2010 we are in finals for most of it which included three prelims.

If you have a shit recruiter you are no chance. Scott Clayton is still around apparently. But drafting guys like Mircophone head Grant in a top 5 pick, Liam Jones and other no names left a massive hole from older age bracket by the time the next rebuild phase from 2012-2014 came along. Not to mention some poor trading too.

Giving more help does not fix the issue. It’s the club personale.

 

[CarnTheScray]

If you have a sh*t coach you are no chance. Peter Rhode from 2002-2004. The side wasn’t even that bad, you still hd West Johnson Grant Smith and so on. Suddenly Rodney Eade comes along and 2005-2010 we are in finals for most of it which included three prelims.

If you have a sh*t recruiter you are no chance. Scott Clayton is still around apparently. But drafting guys like Mircophone head Grant in a top 5 pick, Liam Jones and other no names left a massive hole from older age bracket by the time the next rebuild phase from 2012-2014 came along. Not to mention some poor trading too.

Giving more help does not fix the issue. It’s the club personale.

I think Clayton also picked Andrejs Everitt over Jack Riewoldt

 

[G String]

It is probably easier to keep a good team good then building a new team from the scratch. You only need to inject 1-2 decent players, to replace trades and retiments every year (won't last forever, but can go on quite some time). To rebuilt sucessfully you need to get alot things right.

I agree - when a team has had success, refreshing and topping up is viable and preferable. I reckon a full re-build is reserved for when a team/club has a crap culture - clear out the older players and bring in lots of new talent that can be shaped into a winning team - give them some ownership to build the team and culture - and not be shaped by senior players to adopt the existing/losing culture.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Does Melbourne winning a flag make a case either way? I don't buy the argument that they turned it around quickly, despite finishing 17th in 2019. The list build took several years. But it also shows it can be done if you draft well.

 

[Mr north man]

Should a priority pick be handed out more? It definitely helped St Kilda, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Collingwood rebuild faster in the 2000's. I understand tanking was the biggest issue with it, but it certainly fast tracked rebuilds.

Yet North Melbourne who have been for the last 2 years and the AFL will be under orders from the clubs not to give them one.
But hay I rather build up from the bottom up and give the bird to the rest of the competition and the media when the day comes when we do win our next flag.

 

[Mr north man]

I think Clayton also picked Andrejs Everitt over Jack Riewoldt

Yes he is at North.

 

[juss]

Does Melbourne winning a flag make a case either way? I don't buy the argument that they turned it around quickly, despite finishing 17th in 2019. The list build took several years. But it also shows it can be done if you draft well.

It's all dependant on doing things well. Any list could play finals within 3 years and any list could win a flag within 5-7 years. Club management needs to draft, trade and coach well making the right decisions for their list. That's where most come undone.

 

[Pessimistic]

Does Melbourne winning a flag make a case either way? I don't buy the argument that they turned it around quickly, despite finishing 17th in 2019. The list build took several years. But it also shows it can be done if you draft well.

‘now we are hearing they nearly blinked and moved on goody. Problem seems to be the admin and supporters not having patience, changing things and just repeating the cycle

 

[Kwality]

‘now we are hearing they nearly blinked and moved on goody. Problem seems to be the admin and supporters not having patience, changing things and just repeating the cycle

There would be plenty to learn from an analysis of the last say 5 years, the drafting, the trading & the delisting.
Take Ben Brown as an example of how you put the icing on the cake.

As an Eagles fan, I grow tired of those claiming to support the club wanting to chuck a coach (2 x GFs in 7 years) & the administration. At Melbourne the hard work goes back to Glen Bartlett & Peter Jackson getting Goodwin to the club.