Everyone calm down we will be top 4 next year

[No SPIN]

As I recall, several clubs were chasing Wilson and he was considered a good get by the Pies wasn’t he? Didn’t he have an impressive junior footy record before pro basketball career? He seems like a sporting all rounder who may excel at most sports. Let’s hope he debuts this year.

Geelong were very very keen IIRC, and he represented Victoria in U16, so he is definitely not new to the game as thought by some people.

 

[Carringbush2010]

We could easily have a massive year next year, it will all depend on ready made draftees. in 2018, Stephenson had an immediate impact and was the catalyst for us making the GF. The dream outcome would be we get 4 inside top 30 draftees with the hope 2 of them will be ready to go round 1. Rantell takes Phillips spot, Sier takes Adz spot, Reef/Ford takes Stephenson's spot. Big improvers Ruscoe and Bianco. We do need a full forward so M Cox can play Forward Pocket/Ruck. maybe McCarthy or McCartin. 2021 Flag

1/ It does not solely rely on ready made draftees. Ready made draftees don't grow on trees

2/ Stevo was not the catalyst for making the GF, it was Nathan's game system that got us there and it wasn't just Stevo executing it.

3/ Even if we somehow nail the draft, the rest of our list profile does not match the contenders. That means we'll have to entirely rely on internal improvement to pull this off, given the last two seasons and the potential trust damage from Buck's phone calls that seems unlikely.

4/ Daics and Sides will be the primary wingers, club has stated as much, if anything Rantall will be depth even though similar traits in tank to Phillips.

5/ *McCartin or McCarthy, really?! You do realize the baggage that comes with them right? McCartin is moot anyway, looks like he's in talks with the swans. McCarthy is 192cm - hardly the KPF we need and we already have a similar size developing Ruscoe anyway.

6/ *The reason why you're suggesting the likes of these two is because this club has put itself in a position where they can't trade in - anybody!

 

[HeadInTheSand]

it was Nathan's game system that got us there and it wasn't just Stevo executing it.

The game plan in 2018 had nothing whatsoever to do with Nathan Buckley.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The game plan in 2018 had nothing whatsoever to do with Nathan Buckley.

Evidence to the counter?

 

[DerekZoolander]

1/ It does not solely rely on ready made draftees. Ready made draftees don't grow on trees

2/ Stevo was not the catalyst for making the GF, it was Nathan's game system that got us there and it wasn't just Stevo executing it.

3/ Even if we somehow nail the draft, the rest of our list profile does not match the contenders. That means we'll have to entirely rely on internal improvement to pull this off, given the last two seasons and the potential trust damage from Buck's phone calls that seems unlikely.

4/ Daics and Sides will be the primary wingers, club has stated as much, if anything Rantall will be depth even though similar traits in tank to Phillips.

5/ *McCartin or McCarthy, really?! You do realize the baggage that comes with them right? McCartin is moot anyway, looks like he's in talks with the swans. McCarthy is 192cm - hardly the KPF we need and we already have a similar size developing Ruscoe anyway.

6/ *The reason why you're suggesting the likes of these two is because this club has put itself in a position where they can't trade in - anybody!

Correct, i'm trying to find a silver lining. If we didn't stuff up the trade period so much there is no way I would suggest the former 1st rounders but it is a suggestion . Ready made draftees don't grow on trees....no sh*t sherlock. Again, looking for something positive to fall our way. BTW, we couldn't score in 2017... 2018 along came a speedster in Stevo and changed the dynamics of the forward line. No Stevo NO GF. Simple as that Sherlock

 

[Carringbush2010]

Correct, i'm trying to find a silver lining. If we didn't stuff up the trade period so much there is no way I would suggest the former 1st rounders but it is a suggestion . Ready made draftees don't grow on trees....no sh*t sherlock. Again, looking for something positive to fall our way. BTW, we couldn't score in 2017... 2018 along came a speedster in Stevo and changed the dynamics of the forward line. No Stevo NO GF. Simple as that Sherlock

Umm so going by that logic our game style was exactly the same as 2017. Which is was not, the change in game is the reason why Stevo, Jordy, the hyphen and JT bagged all those goals. Not solely on the back of Stevo.

'Silver lining', that is hope in desperation, things like ready made draftees rarely just 'fall our way' we have deliberately engineer 'things our way' not rely on silver linings.

 

[DerekZoolander]

Correct, i'm trying to find a silver lining. If we didn't stuff up the trade period so much there is no way I would suggest the former 1st rounders but it is a suggestion . Ready made draftees don't grow on trees....no sh*t sherlock. Again, looking for something positive to fall our way. BTW, we couldn't score in 2017... 2018 along came a speedster in Stevo and changed the dynamics of the forward line. No Stevo NO GF. Simple as that Sherlock

Also

Umm so going by that logic our game style was exactly the same as 2017. Which is was not, the change in game is the reason why Stevo, Jordy, the hyphen and JT bagged all those goals. Not solely on the back of Stevo.

'Silver lining', that is hope in desperation, things like ready made draftees rarely just 'fall our way' we have deliberately engineer 'things our way' not rely on silver linings.

Of course stepho didn't kick all the goals but without him we wouldn't have made the GF. Silly emoji faces and numbered sentences doesn't make your argument fact. The club has never had a player that turns his opponent inside out like Stepho. Having said that it appears that we did the right thing of getting rid of him with all the stories coming out of the hub.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Also

Of course stepho didn't kick all the goals but without him we wouldn't have made the GF. Silly emoji faces and numbered sentences doesn't make your argument fact. The club has never had a player that turns his opponent inside out like Stepho. Having said that it appears that we did the right thing of getting rid of him with all the stories coming out of the hub.

Ok deny we got to a GF on the back of game change combined with bringing in Stepho. Suit yourself.

 

[HeadInTheSand]

Evidence to the counter?

1) Six years of dour, defensive football and then suddenly a complete 180?

2) A midfield with zero connection between ruck and mid, zero connection between mid and forward lines, and zero forward structure, obvious for all to see, after six years in the helm and you think he can just come out and get everyone to play a completely new game plan after a single pre-season?

3) 2018 was built on not just the game plan, but never before seen or since seasons from Mihocek, Degoey, Hoskin-Elliott, Thomas, Cox and Stephenson. Why have they all regressed - Mihocek probably the exception - if Buckley is such a good coach?

4) After six years, there was no discernible brand to the way the team was playing. Most media pundits said so. So did many supporters. Buckley was constantly saying he wants to be the best transition team, the best contested ball team, and was ready, willing and able to reel off the most meaningless stats imaginable as to why a game was lost.

All of a sudden we're supposed to believe that a dynamic and readily identifiable brand appeared out of nowhere? And one not particularly based on those elements he had spent the previous six seasons eulogising?

5) Since the departure of Longmuir and Hocking, the team have immediately regressed back to the same God-awful style of play with all of the characteristics pre-2018; players handballing to team mates under more pressure than them. Players firing handballs at team mate's feet or over their head, only hitting a target when they are about to be crunched by the opposition. Three players flying for the same ball in the forward line with no one down to crumb. Multiple forward fifty entries for little score. Haphazard forward 50 entries.

None of the above is actual evidence obviously, but simple observation, common sense and logic tells you what happened. It defies any kind of rational thought that Buckley devised the way the team played in 2018. As soon as he was secure with another contract extension, he went back to the old ways.

 

[No SPIN]

Evidence to the counter?

CB - you are right.
The origin of the fast game plan began under Buckley against Hawks in 2017. We were getting spanked at Half time and calls for Buckley’s sacking seemed destined to be realized. We smashed them in the second half with a mesmerizing display of fast football.

So this idea that Longmuir was the sole instigator is rubbish.

What people don’t understand about the change in 2019, was Buckley’s obvious concern that a fast game for 4 QTR’s was too taxing ( maybe contributing to our GF loss) and hence the adaptation for a fast first QTR, and then to hold on for the rest of the game.
This year playing fast as seen towards the end of the season, gave many here a pleasant surprise that we can flick the switch. So IMO it’s now a question of how we optimize the fast game to ensure it’s not taxing.

 

[Carringbush2010]

CB - you are right.
The origin of the fast game plan began under Buckley against Hawks in 2017. We were getting spanked at Half time and calls for Buckley’s sacking seemed destined to be realized. We smashed them in the second half with a mesmerizing display of fast football.

So this idea that Longmuir was the sole instigator is rubbish.

What people don’t understand about the change in 2019, was Buckley’s obvious concern that a fast game for 4 QTR’s was too taxing ( maybe contributing to our GF loss) and hence the adaptation for a fast first QTR, and then to hold on for the rest of the game.
This year playing fast as seen towards the end of the season, gave many here a pleasant surprise that we can flick the switch. So IMO it’s now a question of how we optimize the fast game to ensure it’s not taxing.

I'm starting to bare concern in our growing agreements here spinny. You're starting to see sense.

If there is a flaw in 'Nathans vision' it seems to be sustainability, and the mc has been searching for a balance since. Not yet found, the EF was a realization of spent fuel tickets, if we didn't go all out we would've exited in straight sets.

Looks like a lose lose result, there was no possible way we were going to win the cup this year, club has conceded as much. Now we're not in contention anymore.

Unless...................... the mc and the panel can find that magic game style, likely? Not, Unlikely? Very.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I know this trade period looks absolutely horrendous but keep an open mind here guys.
Treloar : hammy is questionable looks good for a about 10 15 games a season from here on end.
Phillips: please I think we won this trade pick 65 is great for someone who just runs also we got a potential superstar in rantall who can fill his role in the short term.
Stephenson: has been found out cannot put on weight on is most likely finished as a footballer.

2021
Sier
T brown
C brown
Daicos
Rantall
Bianco
Kelly
All of them to take big steps and fill the easy void of those 3 above plus we get reef and some other kid the club obviously have eyes in the draft .
Trust the system you can laugh at me all you want but we will be top 4 next year stop sooking you sideshows

You need to get off the Kool aid. Even if we make the 8 we will be making up the numbers again. Club is going no where.

 

[Horaceg]

We start equal first next year, like every year for many past I go in hoping for the best.

the Club has made their bed and it will all be on show next year, after all the spin there will most likely be more spin. It’s just how it is.

a little embarrassing how our respect of these guys played out this trade period.

will anyone be supporting another Club next year, doubt it so we do need to move on at some point.

 

[Daniel J]

Regardless if you are a Buckley fan or not. Is everyone happy with the boring way we have played over the past 9 years?

A big club with a huge fan base should be playing exciting footy.

Something has to change. Fair enough if the results justified the game plan but they don't. Id rather lose playing like we did against west coast.

 

[HeadInTheSand]

CB - you are right.
The origin of the fast game plan began under Buckley against Hawks in 2017. We were getting spanked at Half time and calls for Buckley’s sacking seemed destined to be realized. We smashed them in the second half with a mesmerizing display of fast football.

Your continual denial is hysterical.

Buckley suddenly decided to flip the switch at half time in a single match and low and behold the 2018 style of play was born?

Perhaps you can explain the same forward structure and movement inside fifty for eight of his nine years in charge being so crap?

1) Either he doesn't think there's a problem, or

2) He is coaching the team but they don't comprehend, or

3) He doesn't have any idea what to do.

And please spare me the gibberish about how the fast style of play wasn't sustainable.

What isn't sustainable is having three forwards all fly for the same chaotic high ball entry inside fifty, no one down and the opposition sweeping it back up the ground with ease.

 

[No SPIN]

Your continual denial is hysterical.

Buckley suddenly decided to flip the switch at half time in a single match and low and behold the 2018 style of play was born?

Perhaps you can explain the same forward structure and movement inside fifty for eight of his nine years in charge being so crap?

1) Either he doesn't think there's a problem, or

2) He is coaching the team but they don't comprehend, or

3) He doesn't have any idea what to do.

And please spare me the gibberish about how the fast style of play wasn't sustainable.

What isn't sustainable is having three forwards all fly for the same chaotic high ball entry inside fifty, no one down and the opposition sweeping it back up the ground with ease.

Yes - you are correct the fast game plan emerged in that game. That is an indisputable fact, you can use your anti Buckley agenda to try and distort the reality but sadly the facts are the facts. BTW you cant flip the switch unless its been practiced.

Now you are straw clutching with "please explain the 8 of the nine years" - that's just an irrelevant diversion.

And yes the fast game plan is far too taxing over 4 QTRs - that's a fact. Even Rich developed a slow style - eg 1st half in their BNE game early in the season.
So if the team known for playing fast has added a slow game plan, then I think I'm vindicated, in my view about a taxing game plan.
In 2019 we opted for fast starts to try to manage the problem - and BTW Longmuir was part of the Coaching group that decided this was a needed change.

So please go back to the Melb board and continue your argument that Bucks is the AFL's worst Coach and not Goodwin, because at least you'll be mistaken for having credibility there, which is certainly not the case here.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Your continual denial is hysterical.

Buckley suddenly decided to flip the switch at half time in a single match and low and behold the 2018 style of play was born?

Perhaps you can explain the same forward structure and movement inside fifty for eight of his nine years in charge being so crap?

1) Either he doesn't think there's a problem, or

2) He is coaching the team but they don't comprehend, or

3) He doesn't have any idea what to do.

And please spare me the gibberish about how the fast style of play wasn't sustainable.

What isn't sustainable is having three forwards all fly for the same chaotic high ball entry inside fifty, no one down and the opposition sweeping it back up the ground with ease.

Yes - you are correct the fast game plan emerged in that game. That is an indisputable fact, you can use your anti Buckley agenda to try and distort the reality but sadly the facts are the facts. BTW you cant flip the switch unless its been practiced.

Now you are straw clutching with "please explain the 8 of the nine years" - that's just an irrelevant diversion.

And yes the fast game plan is far too taxing over 4 QTRs - that's a fact. Even Rich developed a slow style - eg 1st half in their BNE game early in the season.
So if the team known for playing fast has added a slow game plan, then I think I'm vindicated, in my view about a taxing game plan.
In 2019 we opted for fast starts to try to manage the problem - and BTW Longmuir was part of the Coaching group that decided this was a needed change.

So please go back to the Melb board and continue your argument that Bucks is the AFL's worst Coach and not Goodwin, because at least you'll be mistaken for having credibility there, which is certainly not the case here.

For starters, that 2018 game style wasn't just drawn up in the midnight oil overnight and then applied in the second half of a game. That is ludicrous to suggest anyone believes that.

It was drawn up over years, Bucks asking Dekka to find certain types of players for it i:e mid plentiful, that was evident in 14 - 15 when he had the club recruit 'his' team.

It was clear it was designed to outnumber in the contest and on the outside for the ball win. It was a swarm and spread game.

You don't just go 'righto fellas play this way' and it just magically happens. You need your whole squad to have the same belief and be in total sync with each other, that takes lots n lots of time and training.

After that failed GF the mc and the panel decided to slow the game, Pendles himself conceded as much after the dogs game in 2019. They haven't found the right balance. So it was obviously a concession that the game is not sustainable for a required period of time.

The result is the same, 'Nathan's vision' is a failed model. So now they've been looking for the right tempo of that pressure game with continued failings for the last two seasons.

I have no doubt they won't achieve the right mix, I hope I'm wrong. The club has admitted they're looking at 'internal improvement', well going on recent evidence that ain't happenin.

Meanwhile the ass holes over the railway line are able to continue their pressure game and go on a flag spree, yet we can't. Right there is the difference in game and player development. That is not wholly and solely the problem but if we could get that right it would go a long way, like I said that doesn't look likely.

No there is no top 4, if it does happen then that would be the biggest turn around of form in the history of the club. So anyone would be excused for thinking not.

 

[partypie]

Prior to this trade period we were already short of top 4 due in part to injuries, but mostly due to the limp defence-oriented "risk free" game plan Buckley moved back to where our slow, "careful" ball movement just let teams push back in front of the ball whenever we did manage to regain possession in our defensive half. The percentage of time where we tried to switch (slowly) off half back when there was literally no advantage for us on the opposite side and we ended up in an even worse position than before we started the switch was almost staggering in some games.

To be frank it is almost as if we go into an even more defensive-minded mode when we have the ball in hand a lot of the time, indeed it's almost as if the coaching team thinks it's the NFL where slow play (ie. maintaining possession for longer by leaning more on the run) is a valid tactic to manage games especially against high-scoring outfits, but that just isn't the case in the AFL where forwards work best when the ball is transitioned quickly and scoreboard pressure is a key element of any defensive scheme.

I am confident in saying that if Buckley and co stick to the same mind-numbing game plan then we wont be top 4, maybe not even top 8, as a lot of teams will be able to pin us down for extended periods in games as we have seen on a regular basis for the past 18 months.

Instead of being an arrogant smart ass and gloating about what happened in the West Coast final (which was absolutely a one-off in the post-restart 2020 season and had nothing to do with personnel) he needs to grow a pair and stick to a more attacking style of play every week, because that is what opposition teams don't want to see out of us.

There is opportunity now for a few young kids to step up and contribute at AFL level with our recent unfortunate departures and our fortuned will just as likely ride on how well on that handful of "replacements" do as well as how the last six players in our best 22 hold up, the latter of which which has been a bit of an Achilles heel for us for a while now (I guess we can call it a "bottom 9" now given that we'll have three new best-22 candidates stepping up)

From where I sit we still have a pretty decent core of players and should be more settled in 2021 when (fingers crossed) hub life isn't a factor, so we're still some chance to play finals, but we pretty much need everything to go right to do so:

• our best 22 stays relatively healthy and gets some continuity
• the "bottom 9" in our best 22 make a meaningful contribution throughout the season, instead of being a bit of a liability at times
• the next 5 or 6 on the list who may be required to fill in on occasions where we do pick up an injury / someone in the initial best 22 falls out of form (including any of the kids who get games) play their roles well enough when needed
• the coaching staff reset their approach and have a more balanced (more attacking) mindset, because what they have rolled out for the past 18 months clearly isn't working out the way they (and we as supporters) would like it to.

If things can click for us next year then we're still a chance of having a decent season (ie. making finals, maybe even winning one), but if they don't then we could also go the other way and find ourselves in the mid-table ruckus with other teams who may fall a bit sort of making the final eight at season's end.

 

[sr36]

1) Six years of dour, defensive football and then suddenly a complete 180?

2) A midfield with zero connection between ruck and mid, zero connection between mid and forward lines, and zero forward structure, obvious for all to see, after six years in the helm and you think he can just come out and get everyone to play a completely new game plan after a single pre-season?

3) 2018 was built on not just the game plan, but never before seen or since seasons from Mihocek, Degoey, Hoskin-Elliott, Thomas, Cox and Stephenson. Why have they all regressed - Mihocek probably the exception - if Buckley is such a good coach?

4) After six years, there was no discernible brand to the way the team was playing. Most media pundits said so. So did many supporters. Buckley was constantly saying he wants to be the best transition team, the best contested ball team, and was ready, willing and able to reel off the most meaningless stats imaginable as to why a game was lost.

All of a sudden we're supposed to believe that a dynamic and readily identifiable brand appeared out of nowhere? And one not particularly based on those elements he had spent the previous six seasons eulogising?

5) Since the departure of Longmuir and Hocking, the team have immediately regressed back to the same God-awful style of play with all of the characteristics pre-2018; players handballing to team mates under more pressure than them. Players firing handballs at team mate's feet or over their head, only hitting a target when they are about to be crunched by the opposition. Three players flying for the same ball in the forward line with no one down to crumb. Multiple forward fifty entries for little score. Haphazard forward 50 entries.

None of the above is actual evidence obviously, but simple observation, common sense and logic tells you what happened. It defies any kind of rational thought that Buckley devised the way the team played in 2018. As soon as he was secure with another contract extension, he went back to the old ways.

Just to add, it was a season where Bucks took the beginning of preseason off and it was very public that he took a hands off approach with players and assistant coaches.

 

[Cyclops]

"There's a chance we will slide down the ladder in 2021, but I hope its not too high"

The chance:

 

[Somebody]

Also

Of course stepho didn't kick all the goals but without him we wouldn't have made the GF. Silly emoji faces and numbered sentences doesn't make your argument fact. The club has never had a player that turns his opponent inside out like Stepho. Having said that it appears that we did the right thing of getting rid of him with all the stories coming out of the hub.

I just hope he doesn't star for NM and help propel them past us. but if he does that will create serious q's about the CFC and its culture.

 

[HeadInTheSand]

Just to add, it was a season where Bucks took the beginning of preseason off and it was very public that he took a hands off approach with players and assistant coaches.

A very good point. Forgot about that.

 

[manicpie]

I just hope he doesn't star for NM and help propel them past us. but if he does that will create serious q's about the CFC and its culture.

I have a feeling he is going to have an outstanding year next year then probably fall off the perch like he did with us, there is more to getting rid of him than we know

 

[yeee_haaaa!!!!!]

Stephenson and phillips had zero impact in 2020. Treloar had minimal impact despite his huge accumulation of possessions. There is no logical reason that collingwood will be any worse in 2021 than 2020. With a fit howe, sidebottom back in action, de goey hopefully not missing half the season, sier more than half fit, and grundy not carrying an injury most of the season, the argument is actually that they should be a fair bit better. Should at the very least make the 8 in 2021

and when josh kelly arrives this time next year, trade period 2020 will be a fading memory

 

[Anzacday]

when josh kelly arrives this time next year

Is it just me or is he over-rated?
I'd rather Whitfield.

PS: Kelly will finish in the top 3 in the Brownlow now that I've said that and we'll have to pay a massive premium.