Opinion I believe the children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way

[Bunk Moreland]

And with that we have a debutant.

Confirmed, Worsfold reads Bigfooty

 

[DERO]

If we have less than 5 wins at round 10, it is well and truly time to roll the dice and play the kids regardless. Mutch, Clarke, Langford, Laverde, Ridley, Redman and co must be given opportunities to prove themselves at senior level.

 

[Runk]

If we have less than 5 wins at round 10, it is well and truly time to roll the dice and play the kids regardless. Mutch, Clarke, Langford, Laverde, Ridley, Redman and co must be given opportunities to prove themselves at senior level.

Exactly. And btw....where the * is Redman?

 

[Towno78]

I haven't read the thread, so not sure if it's been mentioned by others. But this specific dataset is going to be skewed strongly against Essendon relative to the competition.

It is talking about total number of players who have debuted in the 17/18 seasons. But due to our unique 2016 season, everyone on our list had played senior footy, except for Morgan who wasn't fit to.

So other clubs will have had many debutants in the last 2 seasons drafted from the '14/15 drafts, whereas ours could only have come from '16/17 drafts (and we traded away our first 2 picks in '17). If they included the 2016 season our numbers would start to look like Geelong, and that would be an even worse representation.

Having said that, I am truly of the belief we are not playing enough of our 1st-4th year players, but this data isn't a reasonable comparison.

 

[Scottie65]

Its been a feature of Essendon for far too long that we don’t give our draftees a continued run of games. It’s bullshit. We collect draft picks, and with the exception of maybe one or 2 each year, leave them in the VFL so we can continue to pump games into our existing “AFL” players in the misguided belief that this year we are a contender. God forbid we actually play our kids, give them a run and see if they could actually be competent AFL footballers and improve our team. And we don’t cut them, because they’re ours and we like having them in our collection.

This was my rant. But now, I have data to back it up!

The table below from the AFL site shows how s**t we are at actually playing our draftees. Bear in mind we had a number one draft pick that has pretty much played every game since 2017.


View attachment 488154

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-04-24/the-stats-files-geelongs-latest-litter-of-kittens#/

love this post.....yes play the youngens....at least a few times to see what there made off....joel selwood and even this year with stephenson and murray....they were both played round 1 of the following season and in selwoods case absolutly dominated and can see stephenson and murray doing the same....clarke could be the peice pissing inside mid but who would know if hes not played

 

[Cold Sober]

You don't buy a slab of beer and not drink it.

 

[DERO]

You don't buy a slab of beer and not drink it.

You do if it is Tooheys blue.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

You don't buy a slab of beer and not drink it.

I’m guessing you wouldn’t even buy one?

 

[AcuteWhistle]

You don't buy a slab of beer and not drink it.

Poty

 

[Towno78]

There is a lot of truth in this. Circumstances in the last 10 years with change over of coaches and no real long term coach has lead to what you have said about coaches having a set group of core players that they stick with. The reliable bunch so to speak. Now currently we have had 1 wasted year under Worsfold , one year to get things rolling and here we are in what is really year two. So far he has had his core group. I am not sure a few players would be getting games in this group if we did not have a few of the injury issues we have had. Baguly is pretty much only in the side because Gleeson , McNiece and Dea are injured. Green has been warming Lavderdes spot. but lets cut to the real chase here and stop playing around the fringes.

I will go out on a limb here and say it. We will not go any further down the road with Zaharakis , Goddard and Myers.

Zaharakis wont play a role. Only likes things on his terms. Is happy just keeping his numbers at 25 and will not defend and takes lazy options in defense.

Goddard still paying good footy but in a team of poor midfielder defenders we can not afford to have the luxury of someone who does not defend well to play his role. In a good side with a good defensive structure you can get away with it but you need that guy to be the real cream of the side. Harsh but if he stays then a younger players gets the chop.

Myers is a lost cause in my opinion . Has just missed too much footy through injury and it is now 3 years since he has been able to play his best footy which was not much more than B- anyway.

On top of that we need to get Merrett to stop ball watching after he has been involved in play and think more about the next part of the game. Otherwise he just becomes a good midfielder and not the genuine all round midfielder we need. Ditto Parish.

There I said it. Please feel free to flail away everyone.

In your opinion, who of the midfielders currently on our list, has the potential to form a midfield that can actually defend going forwards (something I don't ever remember an Essendon side doing well)?

Smith? McGrath?
Merrett? Parish?
Fantasia if you increase his midfield rotations?

Players I haven't seen enough of: Clarke? Mutch? Lav? Guelfi?

Anyone else I can't think of?

 

[ant555]

In your opinion, who of the midfielders currently on our list, has the potential to form a midfield that can actually defend going forwards (something I don't ever remember an Essendon side doing well)?

Smith? McGrath?
Merrett? Parish?
Fantasia if you increase his midfield rotations?

Players I haven't seen enough of: Clarke? Mutch? Lav? Guelfi?

Anyone else I can't think of?

McGrath the only one with defending history.
Should not be too hard for Merrett and Parish to pick it up but the effort has to be made.
Fantasia , defends in the forward line when he is playing at his best.
Guelfi has been reasonable in that area which is why he has early games.
Much and Clarke work in progress.
Laverde was poor last year when not in great form but has been ok in the past but needs to be consistent in that area.

 

[Towno78]

I’m guessing you wouldn’t even buy one?

But if the bottle-o has just 1 slab of most Australian beers and only a couple of imports (mostly Irish), you're the 80th person in to the bottle-o, and you must buy 1 more slab cos your mates will slag you off for hosting a poker night with any less than 3 slabs of beer...

 

[Towno78]

McGrath the only one with defending history.
Should not be too hard for Merrett and Parish to pick it up but the effort has to be made.
Fantasia , defends in the forward line when he is playing at his best.
Guelfi has been reasonable in that area which is why he has early games.
Much and Clarke work in progress.
Laverde was poor last year when not in great form but has been ok in the past but needs to be consistent in that area.

Don't rate Smith in this area?
No one else other than mentioned?

 

[Blind Turn]

jmoo wan this thread is doing my head in. I don’t need Whitney Houston in my head every morning after checking in here.

Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I haven't read the thread, so not sure if it's been mentioned by others. But this specific dataset is going to be skewed strongly against Essendon relative to the competition.

It is talking about total number of players who have debuted in the 17/18 seasons. But due to our unique 2016 season, everyone on our list had played senior footy, except for Morgan who wasn't fit to.

So other clubs will have had many debutants in the last 2 seasons drafted from the '14/15 drafts, whereas ours could only have come from '16/17 drafts (and we traded away our first 2 picks in '17). If they included the 2016 season our numbers would start to look like Geelong, and that would be an even worse representation.

Having said that, I am truly of the belief we are not playing enough of our 1st-4th year players, but this data isn't a reasonable comparison.

Err

Thread is for melting, not reasoned facts. Keep up mate.

 

[jmoo wan]

jmoo wan this thread is doing my head in. I don’t need Whitney Houston in my head every morning after checking in here.

Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

hahah- perfect way to start the day!

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I haven't read the thread, so not sure if it's been mentioned by others. But this specific dataset is going to be skewed strongly against Essendon relative to the competition.

It is talking about total number of players who have debuted in the 17/18 seasons. But due to our unique 2016 season, everyone on our list had played senior footy, except for Morgan who wasn't fit to.

So other clubs will have had many debutants in the last 2 seasons drafted from the '14/15 drafts, whereas ours could only have come from '16/17 drafts (and we traded away our first 2 picks in '17). If they included the 2016 season our numbers would start to look like Geelong, and that would be an even worse representation.

Having said that, I am truly of the belief we are not playing enough of our 1st-4th year players, but this data isn't a reasonable comparison.

On this, Essendon debutantes since Worsfold took over (excl top ups):

Josh Begley (19yo on debut)
Mitch Brown (25)
Aaron Francis (18)
Josh Green (24)
Matt Guelfi (20)
Michael Hartley (22)
Matthew Leuenberger (28)
Jake Long (20)
Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti (23)
Andrew McGrath (18)
Ben McNeice (25)
Kobe Mutch (20)
Darcy Parish (18)
Adam Saad (23)
Devon Smith (24)
James Stewart (23)
Jake Stringer (23)

That's 17 new players over 2 years plus 5 rounds. Yes, they're not all kids, but he's handed senior debuts to Begley, Francis, Guelfi, Long, Tippa, McGrath, McNeice, Mutch and Parish.

Long is battling but the rest are either now established seniors or pushing for selection. People will say some were forced in 2016, but the fact is they've mostly kicked on even with the senior players back.

Of the more mature players, Green isn't popular but you'd be hard-pressed to find any Essendon supporter who wasn't happy with the recruiting of the rest.

 

[Lore]

On this, Essendon debutantes since Worsfold took over (excl top ups):

Josh Begley (19yo on debut)
Mitch Brown (25)
Aaron Francis (18)
Josh Green (24)
Matt Guelfi (20)
Michael Hartley (22)
Matthew Leuenberger (28)
Jake Long (20)
Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti (23)
Andrew McGrath (18)
Ben McNeice (25)
Kobe Mutch (20)
Darcy Parish (18)
Adam Saad (23)
Devon Smith (24)
James Stewart (23)
Jake Stringer (23)

That's 17 new players over 2 years plus 5 rounds. Yes, they're not all kids, but he's handed senior debuts to Begley, Francis, Guelfi, Long, Tippa, McGrath, McNeice, Mutch and Parish.

Long is battling but the rest are either now established seniors or pushing for selection. People will say some were forced in 2016, but the fact is they've mostly kicked on even with the senior players back.

Of the more mature players, Green isn't popular but you'd be hard-pressed to find any Essendon supporter who wasn't happy with the recruiting of the rest.

So nine of our best 22 players this year have never played at Essendon under any other coach. 10 if you count Brown, who has played every game he's been available for (not injured).

 

[Bunk Moreland]

So nine of our best 22 players this year have never played at Essendon under any other coach. 10 if you count Brown, who has played every game he's been available for (not injured).

I fully understand and agree with the view that list cloggers got too long under late-Sheedy and early-Hird.

But I believe we’ve moved on from that. Some people want almost the whole list turned over every year, which you just can’t do unless you want to pay out contract and recruit seventh round draftees and rookie upgrades.

Yes, we have a few. Bags is looking past it but is little more than depth at this stage, as is Jackson Merrett. Both are out of contract this year and I’d suggest they’re strongly up against it to stay on.

 

[Lore]

I fully understand and agree with the view that list cloggers got too long under late-Sheedy and early-Hird.

But I believe we’ve moved on from that. Some people want almost the whole list turned over every year, which you just can’t do unless you want to pay out contract and recruit seventh round draftees and rookie upgrades.

Yes, we have a few. Bags is looking past it but is little more than depth at this stage, as is Jackson Merrett. Both are out of contract this year and I’d suggest they’re strongly up against it to stay on.

I wasn't talking about list cloggers. I'm saying Worsfold has debuted 9 (or 10) players who have gone on to be among the best 22 players we have at the club. That's a pretty good rate of turn over and a lot of fresh meat in the side.

"List cloggers" is a bizarre concept, you can only turn over so much of the list at a time unless you want to be Carlton, win the draft every year and achieve precious little else.

 

[Lore]

This is our 2016 list. Blue names are still at the club.

16 that are still at the club are clear best 22, Brown if you count him makes 17. 9 seniors and 2 rookies are still at the club but not in the best 22, they are Francis, Redman, Hartley, Baguley, J.Merrett (LTI), Leuenberger, Langford, Laverde (LTIs), Dea, McKernan (rookie) and Long (rookie).

Of those who are not best 22, it is mostly a mix of role player depth and kids we still hope might get a go (some have suffered injuries as well which may be why they haven't cemented their place in the 22). Baguley is the only one there that may be a bit passed it, though I think he's still on the edge of the best 22 and is essentially being managed out and kept as depth while McNiece or whoever comes up to take his place. Sort of in a transitional stage I guess.

Spoiler: 2016 list

Suspended:
1 Michael Hibberd
2 Tom Bellchambers - Best 22
4 Jobe Watson
5 Brent Stanton
16 Tayte Pears
18 Michael Hurley - Best 22
21 Dyson Heppell - Best 22
23 David Myers - Best 22
26 Cale Hooker - Best 22
32 Travis Colyer - Best 22
39 Heath Hocking
40 Ben Howlett

2016 first year at Essendon:
3 Darcy Parish - Best 22
10 Aaron Francis
27 Mason Redman
25 Alex Morgan
28 Mitch Brown - Best 22? (LTI)
35 Yestin Eades
36 Michael Hartley

Seniors:
6 Joe Daniher - Best 22
7 Zach Merrett - Best 22
8 Martin Gleeson - Best 22
9 Brendon Goddard - Best 22
11 David Zaharakis - Best 22
12 Mark Baguley
13 Orazio Fantasia - Best 22
14 Jason Ashby
15 Courtenay Dempsey
17 Adam Cooney
19 Shaun Edwards
20 Jackson Merrett (LTI)
22 Matthew Leuenberger
24 Craig Bird
29 Patrick Ambrose - Best 22
30 Kyle Langford
33 Jayden Laverde (LTI)
38 Nick Kommer
42 James Gwilt
44 Shaun McKernan - Demoted to rookie

Top ups:
47 James Kelly - Now a coach
48 Mathew Stokes
49 Matt Dea - Put on senior list in 2017
50 James Polkinghorne
51 Ryan Crowley
52 Jonathan Simpkin
53 Mark Jamar
54 Sam Grimley
55 Nathan Grima
56 Sam Michael


Rookie List
34 Jake Long
37 Gach Nyuon
41 Will Hams
43 Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti - Best 22, promoted to senior
45 Conor McKenna - Best 22, promoted to senior
46 Tom Wallis

Couple more stats for you:
We have 19 players with under 50 AFL games to their name at the moment. 13 of them have played at least one game this year already.
Tomorrow we debut our second player for the year.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

There is a lot of truth in this. Circumstances in the last 10 years with change over of coaches and no real long term coach has lead to what you have said about coaches having a set group of core players that they stick with. The reliable bunch so to speak. Now currently we have had 1 wasted year under Worsfold , one year to get things rolling and here we are in what is really year two. So far he has had his core group. I am not sure a few players would be getting games in this group if we did not have a few of the injury issues we have had. Baguly is pretty much only in the side because Gleeson , McNiece and Dea are injured. Green has been warming Lavderdes spot. but lets cut to the real chase here and stop playing around the fringes.

I will go out on a limb here and say it. We will not go any further down the road with Zaharakis , Goddard and Myers.

Zaharakis wont play a role. Only likes things on his terms. Is happy just keeping his numbers at 25 and will not defend and takes lazy options in defense.

Goddard still paying good footy but in a team of poor midfielder defenders we can not afford to have the luxury of someone who does not defend well to play his role. In a good side with a good defensive structure you can get away with it but you need that guy to be the real cream of the side. Harsh but if he stays then a younger players gets the chop.

Myers is a lost cause in my opinion . Has just missed too much footy through injury and it is now 3 years since he has been able to play his best footy which was not much more than B- anyway.

On top of that we need to get Merrett to stop ball watching after he has been involved in play and think more about the next part of the game. Otherwise he just becomes a good midfielder and not the genuine all round midfielder we need. Ditto Parish.

There I said it. Please feel free to flail away everyone.

Ant old buddy. I've only been saying this forever and a day. Years ago it was Stanton, Dyson and others. I've had to battle all comers on here but its rinse and repeat the same lack lustre performances year on year and its quite clear where the problem lies.

Only in 2013 did we get the right balance and Hird had us playing a tough game because Jobe, Heppel had Hocking and Howlett at the top of their game and we got contributions from Melksham, Kommer and Baguley and Goddard were a bit more mobile.

We need to get the next hard nut in the side and let him tackle and work his guts out. Clarke seems to be the one so I'm staggered as to why he hasn't been picked. There is no easy fix here. We have to either get one in trade or wait a few more years. We need to give games to players that balance us out better rather than the same 20+ stat padders who struggle with defensive capabilities and don't provide enough drive.

Are there 3 senior guys in the league worse at defending on the ground and in the air then Zaka, Goddard, Myers?

Our only hope is to retire Goddard at the end of this year. Send Zaka to hff/wing rotation. Myers depth in the VFL and maybe a few games AFL if he gets continuity. Get Sloane to replace Goddard and add to midfield rotation. Draft next gun mid and hope they can build with Heppell, Parish, Zerrett, Sloane, Clarke, McGrath. We need to get lucky and hit the jackpot with one of Guelfi, Clarke or even Mutch.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Ant old buddy. I've only been saying this forever and a day. Years ago it was Stanton, Dyson and others. I've had to battle all comers on here but its rinse and repeat the same lack lustre performances year on year and its quite clear where the problem lies.

Only in 2013 did we get the right balance and Hird had us playing a tough game because Jobe, Heppel had Hocking and Howlett at the top of their game and we got contributions from Melksham, Kommer and Baguley and Goddard were a bit more mobile.

We need to get the next hard nut in the side and let him tackle and work his guts out. Clarke seems to be the one so I'm staggered as to why he hasn't been picked. There is no easy fix here. We have to either get one in trade or wait a few more years. We need to give games to players that balance us out better rather than the same 20+ stat padders who struggle with defensive capabilities and don't provide enough drive.

Are there 3 senior guys in the league worse at defending on the ground and in the air then Zaka, Goddard, Myers?

Our only hope is to retire Goddard at the end of this year. Send Zaka to hff/wing rotation. Myers depth in the VFL and maybe a few games AFL if he gets continuity. Get Sloane to replace Goddard and add to midfield rotation. Draft next gun mid and hope they can build with Heppell, Parish, Zerrett, Sloane, Clarke, McGrath. We need to get lucky and hit the jackpot with one of Guelfi, Clarke or even Mutch.

You highlight 2013. Stanton was valuable.

Just because we need more inside kids doesn’t mean you just use it as an excuse to drop unrelated players you don’t like.

Guelfi is in and Laverde is too, who has the makings of an inside mid and will increasingly play there as he gains fitness.

Our only hope is to retire Goddard? He’s by far our best user and delivers quality forward thrusts. Next thing we’ll be winning contested ball and everybody will be complaining about their disposal.

 

[Old Stuckup]

Wouldn’t mind seeing this team either late this season or at the start of next:
B: Redman - Hooker - Gleeson
HB: Saad - Hurley - McKenna
C: Merrett - Clarke - Parish
HF: Laverde - Daniher - Fantasia
F: Stewart - Stringer - McDonald-Tipungwuti
R: Bellchambers - Heppell - Smith
I/C: Langford - Zaharakis - McGrath - Mutch

EMG: Begley - Ridley - Myers - McKernan

 

[Yoda_]

You highlight 2013. Stanton was valuable.

Just because we need more inside kids doesn’t mean you just use it as an excuse to drop unrelated players you don’t like.

Guelfi is in and Laverde is too, who has the makings of an inside mid and will increasingly play there as he gains fitness.

Our only hope is to retire Goddard? He’s by far our best user and delivers quality forward thrusts. Next thing we’ll be winning contested ball and everybody will be complaining about their disposal.

Hardest part for mine is playing the kids in the role they were drafted for/developed in.


Guelfi was drafted as a mid/utility. Play him there for example.