Is the MCG a big advantage on Grand Final Day for Victorians against Interstate Sides? /Are Interstaters advantaged during the home and away season?

[GhostofJimJess]

MCG advantages Collingwood and Richmond the most
Melbourne next
Hawks, Bombers, Blues
Then us
The rest

How does the MCG advantage Richmond and Collingwood more than Melbourne? All three play approximately the same number of games there each season - maybe the odd Demons selling of an interstate (or China) game notwithstanding. That's about 30 hours each on the hallowed turf all season, including finals if they're fortunate enough. Hawks, Bombers, Blues get about 15-20 hours total on the ground in an entire year.

Compared to Geelong who get 30 hours on their home ground pretty much every few weeks, including pre-season. Imagine the luxury of getting to train unrestricted on the ground in which your home games are scheduled - where nobody else gets more than 2 hours per season, and is the most distinctly odd-shaped playing arena in the league? And is of a capacity which severely restricts opposition attendance when they do play there.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Possible performance factors that could theoretically help a Melbourne or Victorian based team:

1. Travel
2. Disruption (to sleep etc)
3. Crowd

1. Travel - I don’t buy the idea that flying for a few hours a week before a game of footy makes any difference. NBA players play 3-4 games/week and fly all over the US without complaint, sometimes with 20 year careers. Richmond flew from Brisbane to Adelaide the morning of their prelim against Port in 2020 and it made no difference.

2. I don’t buy the idea that sleeping in a hotel bed is particularly worse than sleeping in your own bed, especially given that many players have babies at home that are noisy. GF week is very abnormal for both teams, with the parade etc. Who’s to say that Melbourne based teams don’t experience more stress and pressure, with fans at training etc.

3. Studies have shown that crowd is overwhelmingly the largest part of home ground advantage. If an MCG crowd for a GF was as one sided as it usually is for a game against an interstate team, then that would definitely be an advantage. Luckily, on GF day, ticketing is equal for both teams. Even if a Melbourne or Vic based team gets a few more fans, there’s still enough oppo support that you don’t get one sided crowd noise, which is what intimidates umpires and creates umpiring bias. So no advantage there

Conclusion: Melbourne and Vic teams get no significant advantage playing the GF at the G. Equally, I don’t think Perth or Adelaide based clubs would get an advantage if the GF was played on their home deck, so long as the ticketing arrangements were similar to the current arrangement. Patrick Dangerfield this week announced he’d had to see a world leading sports psychologist because of the pressure of playing big finals. That pressure would be intensified for Melbourne and Vic based teams, and diminished for interstate teams, who get to get out of their fishbowl cities for the week. We saw how badly the pressure affected Port and Brisbane in recent years when all their finals were at home in covid years.

So overall, MCG GFs create a slight advantage for interstate sides. It would be great if the GF was moved around, so that Vic sides could enjoy the benefit of a less stressful build up. Unfortunately the GF is locked into the G, so that will never happen.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Possible performance factors that could theoretically help a Melbourne or Victorian based team:

1. Travel
2. Disruption (to sleep etc)
3. Crowd

1. Travel - I don’t buy the idea that flying for a few hours a week before a game of footy makes any difference. NBA players play 3-4 games/week and fly all over the US without complaint, sometimes with 20 year careers. Richmond flew from Brisbane to Adelaide the morning of their prelim against Port in 2020 and it made no difference.

2. I don’t buy the idea that sleeping in a hotel bed is particularly worse than sleeping in your own bed, especially given that many players have babies at home that are noisy. GF week is very abnormal for both teams, with the parade etc. Who’s to say that Melbourne based teams don’t experience more stress and pressure, with fans at training etc.

3. Studies have shown that crowd is overwhelmingly the largest part of home ground advantage. If an MCG crowd for a GF was as one sided as it usually is for a game against an interstate team, then that would definitely be an advantage. Luckily, on GF day, ticketing is equal for both teams. Even if a Melbourne or Vic based team gets a few more fans, there’s still enough oppo support that you don’t get one sided crowd noise, which is what intimidates umpires and creates umpiring bias. So no advantage there

Conclusion: Melbourne and Vic teams get no significant advantage playing the GF at the G. Equally, I don’t think Perth or Adelaide based clubs would get an advantage if the GF was played on their home deck, so long as the ticketing arrangements were similar to the current arrangement. Patrick Dangerfield this week announced he’d had to see a world leading sports psychologist because of the pressure of playing big finals. That pressure would be intensified for Melbourne and Vic based teams, and diminished for interstate teams, who get to get out of their fishbowl cities for the week. We saw how badly the pressure affected Port and Brisbane in recent years when all their finals were at home in covid years.

So overall, MCG GFs create a slight advantage for interstate sides. It would be great if the GF was moved around, so that Vic sides could enjoy the benefit of a less stressful build up. Unfortunately the GF is locked into the G, so that will never happen.

Ticketing is never equal. I attended the GF in 2018 and the crowd support was massive for collingwood, probably 65-35%, maybe even more than that. Now I have no idea how that many genuine Collingwood supporters got tickets to the game? But the reality is that they did. 'This nonsense that only 16K fans from each club attend GF matches is absolute rubbish. How many Richmond fans do you think were at the Grand Final against Adelaide? I reckon over 60k. It is an advantage.
What needs to be investigated is how these fans get tickets in the week leading up to the game??

 

[blue harvest]

2. I don’t buy the idea that sleeping in a hotel bed is particularly worse than sleeping in your own bed, especially given that many players have babies at home that are noisy. GF week is very abnormal for both teams, with the parade etc. Who’s to say that Melbourne based teams don’t experience more stress and pressure, with fans at training etc.

This is a good point.
I remember reading the thread about Cats v Pies being at the G and people saying Dangerfield has a 2 hour drive from his home down on the coast to the G.
So he would have to do that on Friday for the parade and again on Saturday for the game, or maybe he chooses to stay in a hotel in Melbourne Friday? He has 2 young kids too. It's a disruptive week for both teams.

 

[Sky]

How does the MCG advantage Richmond and Collingwood more than Melbourne? All three play approximately the same number of games there each season - maybe the odd Demons selling of an interstate (or China) game notwithstanding. That's about 30 hours each on the hallowed turf all season, including finals if they're fortunate enough. Hawks, Bombers, Blues get about 15-20 hours total on the ground in an entire year.

Compared to Geelong who get 30 hours on their home ground pretty much every few weeks, including pre-season. Imagine the luxury of getting to train unrestricted on the ground in which your home games are scheduled - where nobody else gets more than 2 hours per season, and is the most distinctly odd-shaped playing arena in the league? And is of a capacity which severely restricts opposition attendance when they do play there.

Start selling games then we will have to play more at the G to make up the numbers

 

[Freomaniac]

What about this year?
Geelong have it both ways, an advantage on GF day and also H&A advantage during the season similar to that of interstaters.

Ah this old chest nut.


Didn't you say hawks only had one MCG game before the 1989 grand final? Despite having your side made every grand final from 1983?

Not to mention you had players that played in the 1975, 1976 and 1978 grand finals?

 

[Freomaniac]

West Coast finals record:

Subiaco Oval: 9/13
Optus Stadium: 2/2
WACA Ground: 2/2

Overall: 13/17 (76.5%)

No team with the exception of Fremantle would choose to play West Coast in a Grand Final in Perth compared to at the MCG if such choice existed. You cannot keep a straight face and say it's not an advantage. Is it an advantage to play a home and away game at home rather than away? Of course. The only difference for a GF is that there isn't a 90/10 crowd.

Where you get into grey areas is how much of an advantage and what other advantages and disadvantages are in play. Finishing top 2 as a non-Victorian side is a big advantage compared to 3rd or 4th. If we get a home QF we are odds on to make the GF - but then we will always have to travel the week of. Hawthorn 2015 get nowhere near enough credit for playing two finals in Perth en route to the GF. Or Freo 2013 winning at KP though they lost the GF. Collingwood 2018, Richmond 2017 got some benefit that higher ranked sides in the top 4 played MCG finals. Richmond play GWS/Adelaide away instead of Geelong "afraid of the MCG" Cats they probably don't make the 2017 GF.

Well Hawks didn't get enough credit for winning the 2015 flag despite playing in Perth twice. Mainly because they were a very good side and had depth in all areas.

I give more credit to the Swans. Travelled in Perth, lost to eagles by 4 points in the qualifying final. Beat cats narrowly in the semi final in NSW.

Swans beat the saints in that 2005 preliminary final, despite being 2 goals down by 3 quarter time.

Swans won the 2005 grand final by 4 points vs West coast.

So I would give swans credit for that

 

[blue harvest]

Ah this old chest nut.


Didn't you say hawks only had one MCG game before the 1989 grand final? Despite having your side made every grand final from 1983?

Not to mention you had players that played in the 1975, 1976 and 1978 grand finals?

??? Not sure what this means.

My point was in reference to the thread title, that Geelong have an advantage this week at the G and also a HGA during the season similar to what the interstate sides have during the year.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Ticketing is never equal. I attended the GF in 2018 and the crowd support was massive for collingwood, probably 65-35%, maybe even more than that. Now I have no idea how that many genuine Collingwood supporters got tickets to the game? But the reality is that they did. 'This nonsense that only 16K fans from each club attend GF matches is absolute rubbish. How many Richmond fans do you think were at the Grand Final against Adelaide? I reckon over 60k. It is an advantage.
What needs to be investigated is how these fans get tickets in the week leading up to the game??

Well I didn't say attendance was perfectly equal, I meant that ticketing opportunities are equal. But even if crowd is 60 v 40%, that's still enough noise both way to not really affect the teams.

 

[radiojake]

Possible performance factors that could theoretically help a Melbourne or Victorian based team:

1. Travel
2. Disruption (to sleep etc)
3. Crowd

1. Travel - I don’t buy the idea that flying for a few hours a week before a game of footy makes any difference. NBA players play 3-4 games/week and fly all over the US without complaint, sometimes with 20 year careers. Richmond flew from Brisbane to Adelaide the morning of their prelim against Port in 2020 and it made no difference.

2. I don’t buy the idea that sleeping in a hotel bed is particularly worse than sleeping in your own bed, especially given that many players have babies at home that are noisy. GF week is very abnormal for both teams, with the parade etc. Who’s to say that Melbourne based teams don’t experience more stress and pressure, with fans at training etc.

3. Studies have shown that crowd is overwhelmingly the largest part of home ground advantage. If an MCG crowd for a GF was as one sided as it usually is for a game against an interstate team, then that would definitely be an advantage. Luckily, on GF day, ticketing is equal for both teams. Even if a Melbourne or Vic based team gets a few more fans, there’s still enough oppo support that you don’t get one sided crowd noise, which is what intimidates umpires and creates umpiring bias. So no advantage there

Conclusion: Melbourne and Vic teams get no significant advantage playing the GF at the G. Equally, I don’t think Perth or Adelaide based clubs would get an advantage if the GF was played on their home deck, so long as the ticketing arrangements were similar to the current arrangement. Patrick Dangerfield this week announced he’d had to see a world leading sports psychologist because of the pressure of playing big finals. That pressure would be intensified for Melbourne and Vic based teams, and diminished for interstate teams, who get to get out of their fishbowl cities for the week. We saw how badly the pressure affected Port and Brisbane in recent years when all their finals were at home in covid years.

So overall, MCG GFs create a slight advantage for interstate sides. It would be great if the GF was moved around, so that Vic sides could enjoy the benefit of a less stressful build up. Unfortunately the GF is locked into the G, so that will never happen.

Surely taking the piss - your conclusion is that Non-Vic sides take a slight advantage into an MCG GF against a Melbourne based club?

 

[Ricketz]

I am not complaining, I am just saying it exists.
You are correct that you have earnt it. Still an advantage though.

You know it's not our home ground, right? The only advantage Geelong has is their fans out of pocket expenses is a bit less.

I agree that the GF should be rotated, but the Cats have no more advantage than an interstate team.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Surely taking the piss - your conclusion is that Non-Vic sides take a slight advantage into an MCG GF against a Melbourne based club?

Well, it's not so much that it's my conclusion, it's the conclusion towards which the evidence ineluctably leads. Think of how badly interstate teams shat the bed during the covid years with the pressure of a home-city build up for all finals. Think of Collingwood's history of shitting the bed in GFs in their home city. Vicco sides have had to deal with that pressure disadvantage for years. How liberating it is to play a GF interstate - as Richmond and Melbourne in recent years can attest to. Pressure, as they say, both bursts pipes and creates diamonds. Luckily, not all Vicco sides, like Collingwood, are a burst pipe. Some diamonds have been forged in the crucible of home-city GF pressure, and some Melbourne-based clubs have managed to build positive grand final records despite having to play at the MCG.

 

[JohnZ]

I attended the GF in 2018 and the crowd support was massive for collingwood, probably 65-35%, maybe even more than that. Now I have no idea how that many genuine Collingwood supporters got tickets to the game?

16k club members from each team get a ticket in the ballot. Firstly, what's to say that WCE sold our their allocation? If they didn't then the leftovers would've gone to the Pies.

Secondly, the AFL and MCC reserves (45k seats combined) are "neutral", but tickets mostly end up in the hands of supporters. Collingwood alone have 10k+ AFL reserve members.

Plus half the "corporate" seats are sold to club supporters by the AFL as $2k packages including a nice breakfast. Absolute joke that is too.

 

[RichLeMonde]

16k club members from each team get a ticket in the ballot. Firstly, what's to say that WCE sold our their allocation? If they didn't then the leftovers would've gone to the Pies.

Secondly, the AFL and MCC reserves (45k seats combined) are "neutral", but tickets mostly end up in the hands of supporters. Collingwood alone have 10k+ AFL reserve members.

Plus half the "corporate" seats are sold to club supporters by the AFL as $2k packages including a nice breakfast. Absolute joke that is too.

I bought one of those corporate tix in 2019. Cost a lot more than 2k but was worth every penny. The breakfast was pretty good to be fair.

 

[JohnZ]

I bought one of those corporate tix in 2019. Cost a lot more than 2k but was worth every penny. The breakfast was pretty good to be fair.

Its a joke that they steal seats from the public reserve to do it but everyone knows. Its no secret.

Youd bloody hope it was a good breakfast for that price

 

[Nice Swan Brother]

Are neutral fans from Vic clubs really more likely to support a Vic based team instead of one from the other states?

I get Geelong are more likeable than most, but surely Carlton, Dons, Tiges fans aren't supporting the Pies on GF day?

 

[yamborghinidream]

3. Studies have shown that crowd is overwhelmingly the largest part of home ground advantage.

Completely wrong, it's ground familiarity which is obviously even more pronounced in a sport without standardised dimensions

 

[RichLeMonde]

Its a joke that they steal seats from the public reserve to do it but everyone knows. Its no secret.

Youd bloody hope it was a good breakfast for that price

It’s terrible. It was a different world where I was seated. They gave people scarves with Richmond on one side and GWS on the other. The entire section I was seated in had about 2 people interested in the game. The rest looked utterly bemused to be there.

 

[Rob]

16k club members from each team get a ticket in the ballot. Firstly, what's to say that WCE sold our their allocation? If they didn't then the leftovers would've gone to the Pies.

Secondly, the AFL and MCC reserves (45k seats combined) are "neutral", but tickets mostly end up in the hands of supporters. Collingwood alone have 10k+ AFL reserve members.

Plus half the "corporate" seats are sold to club supporters by the AFL as $2k packages including a nice breakfast. Absolute joke that is too.

Yeah when people talk of "corporates" taking all the tickets, it's bullshit. It's AFL and MCC members that take up nearly half the ground, and a big chunk of the rest are just the theatregoers, not corporates. Corporates are probably only good for 5-10k of the tickets. Maybe not even that.

Where the AFL ****ed up is not demanding a clean stadium. So you have MCC members, who in reality should have zero rights to attend, take up almost as many tickets as both sets of club members combined. It's laughable.

 

[JohnZ]

It’s terrible. It was a different world where I was seated. They gave people scarves with Richmond on one side and GWS on the other. The entire section I was seated in had about 2 people interested in the game. The rest looked utterly bemused to be there.

Honestly, you could probably get $500 out of these people to stand in a tent in yarra park with free booze and a bump on arrival. Leave the seats for the fans.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Completely wrong, it's ground familiarity which is obviously even more pronounced in a sport without standardised dimensions

Bullshit. When crowds were dispensed with during covid teams no longer exhibited HGA in terms of their winning % at versus on the road. I’m not talking about AFL teams’ records I’m talking about numerous published studies

 

[JohnZ]

Yeah when people talk of "corporates" taking all the tickets, it's bullshit. It's AFL and MCC members that take up nearly half the ground, and a big chunk of the rest are just the theatregoers, not corporates. Corporates are probably only good for 5-10k of the tickets. Maybe not even that.

Where the AFL *ed up is not demanding a clean stadium. So you have MCC members, who in reality should have zero rights to attend, take up almost as many tickets as both sets of club members combined. It's laughable.

AFL members is generally pretty good at being filled by club supporters, but the MCC is a joke. No MCC for the ICC world cup, but we have to cop it for the grand final?

 

[Soggy2112]

How is this even a question? It obviously is an advantage.

More experience at the ground, don’t have to fly in, stay at home vs at a hotel, etc etc.

I’m also aware that it isn’t going to change. The MCG fits 40,000 more people than any of the other AFL venues, plus there’s all the legalities around contracts and the tradition. All legitimate reasons, and I accept that this is one area where my club will always be disadvantaged, just as there are areas we are advantaged. But can we please stop with the nonsense in suggesting that home ground advantage suddenly disappears for one day? No other sport does this.

 

[yamborghinidream]

Bullshit. When crowds were dispensed with during covid teams no longer exhibited HGA in terms of their winning % at versus on the road. I’m not talking about AFL teams’ records I’m talking about numerous published studies

2020 is not a big enough sample size and there's too much noise to draw with everything happening for the data to be worth much anyway.

Studies don't generally separate the aspects of HGA particularly well (controlling variables) but I promise you Geelong's HGA isn't 6-8 points better than average because they have a louder crowd.

 

[kranky al]

Possible performance factors that could theoretically help a Melbourne or Victorian based team:

1. Travel
2. Disruption (to sleep etc)
3. Crowd

1. Travel - I don’t buy the idea that flying for a few hours a week before a game of footy makes any difference. NBA players play 3-4 games/week and fly all over the US without complaint, sometimes with 20 year careers. Richmond flew from Brisbane to Adelaide the morning of their prelim against Port in 2020 and it made no difference.

2. I don’t buy the idea that sleeping in a hotel bed is particularly worse than sleeping in your own bed, especially given that many players have babies at home that are noisy. GF week is very abnormal for both teams, with the parade etc. Who’s to say that Melbourne based teams don’t experience more stress and pressure, with fans at training etc.

3. Studies have shown that crowd is overwhelmingly the largest part of home ground advantage. If an MCG crowd for a GF was as one sided as it usually is for a game against an interstate team, then that would definitely be an advantage. Luckily, on GF day, ticketing is equal for both teams. Even if a Melbourne or Vic based team gets a few more fans, there’s still enough oppo support that you don’t get one sided crowd noise, which is what intimidates umpires and creates umpiring bias. So no advantage there

Conclusion: Melbourne and Vic teams get no significant advantage playing the GF at the G. Equally, I don’t think Perth or Adelaide based clubs would get an advantage if the GF was played on their home deck, so long as the ticketing arrangements were similar to the current arrangement. Patrick Dangerfield this week announced he’d had to see a world leading sports psychologist because of the pressure of playing big finals. That pressure would be intensified for Melbourne and Vic based teams, and diminished for interstate teams, who get to get out of their fishbowl cities for the week. We saw how badly the pressure affected Port and Brisbane in recent years when all their finals were at home in covid years.

So overall, MCG GFs create a slight advantage for interstate sides. It would be great if the GF was moved around, so that Vic sides could enjoy the benefit of a less stressful build up. Unfortunately the GF is locked into the G, so that will never happen.

Actually plenty of studies show travel is massive and theres a heap of studies that show that even testosterone levels are higher in teams playing on their home grounds vs teams playing away. As for hotels - if ive got a grand final coming up i know where id rather spend that week. At home, in my comfortable space with my comforts, hobbies and kids etc etc. all the things i can use to take my mind off whats coming up, i can go out in the garden and look after the veges or in the shed and tinker or jump on the xbox and kill some hours.

Ever sat in a hotel thousands of km from home and tried to kill time?

I notice that you see geelongs ground dimensions are advantageous to them as they play on that ground all the time, by that same logic the mcg’s wide design advantages the mcg teams when they play port, adelaide, stk wb and all the other teams who play on skinny grounds all the time.

I notice that the tigers play smaller winged grounds poorly, etihad and ao havnt been a happy hunting ground for them - even losing to bottom teams in 2018