Is the MCG a big advantage on Grand Final Day for Victorians against Interstate Sides? /Are Interstaters advantaged during the home and away season?

Is the MCG a significant advantage for Victorian sides against Interstate Teams on Grand Final Day?

  • Yes, It's a big advantage for the Vic Big Boys

    Votes: 234 68.2%
  • No. If you're good enough you'll win no matter who you play where you play

    Votes: 109 31.8%

  • Total voters
    343

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kranky al

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Mmm leaving out some important context here kranky:

Vic teams made up 59.4% of all teams over the same period.

Non-Vic teams made up 40.6% of all teams.

So non-Vic teams have been over-represented in the top 4.
its changed over the course of the two decades with the giants and the suns entering the league. they entered the comp in 2011/12 respectively.

this has bought it up to 44.4% and 55.5% respectively.

but the too 4 comparo has other modifiers that havnt been taken into account.

1) essendon asada - they lost draft picks and indeed a whole season as well as players leaving.

2) melbourne tanking and the subsequent losing culture it created - they still havnt recovered from that.

3) carltons salary cap cheating, loss of draft picks and tanking creating a poor culture and lack of success.

those three statistical outliers more than make up for the tiny percentage difference between interstate teams in the comp and their top 4 participation.
 

bh90210fan

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??

What makes up the +10 is the point

+x for flying/-x not flying
+x for crowd/-x no crowd
+x for ground familiarity/-x
+x for routine sleeping/ -x
+x for psych factors defending territory
If both teams aren’t flying, they should both be given a + score.

just as you give both sides a - if they both travel

travel needs to be considered for each game. Some clubs are doing a hell of a lot more of it than others
 

doppleganger

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If both teams aren’t flying, they should both be given a + score.

just as you give both sides a - if they both travel

travel needs to be considered for each game. Some clubs are doing a hell of a lot more of it than others
You still don’t get it.

The advantage / disadvantage in each game has to zero out.

Melbourne v Collingwood at the G, travel isn’t an advantage to either team.

Melbourne v Adelaide at the G, Melbourne enjoy an advantage over Adelaide

Melbourne v Adelaide at TIO stadium, Melbourne lose any travel advantage as BOTH teams travel

If Melbourne played Collingwood at TIO stadium again there would be no travel advantage to either side, as BOTH travel.

So yes, you need to acknowledge the travel burden that Melbourne is taking on.

I do that, you just ignore it because as you say flying, sleeping in hotels and having your routine disrupted doesn’t count if you are the ‘home’ team.
 

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doppleganger

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there is zero chance of us winning a gf without winning lots if away games
Ground rationalisation in Melbourne has made it easier for the Eagles to win ‘away’ games.

That is the ******* entire point.

You still play home games against Melbourne, Collingwood, Hawthorn at Optus, your home venue for ALL 11 home games. Nothing changed for Eagles home games.

Instead of playing an ‘away’ game against Collingwood at VicPark, it is now often at Etihad

Instead of playing the Hawks at Waverley, it could be Etihad or York Park.

Instead of Carlton at Princes Park, you get them at Etihad

Instead of the Dogs at Whitten Oval, you get them at Etihad.

Instead of Richond at the G, it is sometimes at Etihad

Instead of Melbourne at the G, it is now sometimes in Darwin.

The ‘away’ disadvantage experienced by the Eagles has been reduced. They now play at generic grounds like Etihad 3 or 4 times a season in away games, which also often not their opponents preferred home venue, and also usually involves playing an ‘away’ game where the ‘home’ team is also traveling.

It really shouldn’t be that difficult a concept to follow.

But no you Eagles nuffies opt to run with a herp deep argument of they chose to sell it so Eagles somehow magically still experience the full away disadvantage.

Which obviously makes no sense, as it completely ignores that many of the components that actually make up the ‘advantage’ part of home advantage are gone.
 

bh90210fan

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You still don’t get it.

The advantage / disadvantage in each game has to zero out.

Melbourne v Collingwood at the G, travel isn’t an advantage to either team.

Melbourne v Adelaide at the G, Melbourne enjoy an advantage over Adelaide

Melbourne v Adelaide at TIO stadium, Melbourne lose any travel advantage as BOTH teams travel

If Melbourne played Collingwood at TIO stadium again there would be no travel advantage to either side, as BOTH travel.

So yes, you need to acknowledge the travel burden that Melbourne is taking on.

I do that, you just ignore it because as you say flying, sleeping in hotels and having your routine disrupted doesn’t count if you are the ‘home’ team.
But the travel advantage / disadvantage doesn’t equal out over the course of a season across the competition

as you acknowledge it plays a large role in hga so it needs to be applied for each game. Teams which travel more often are worse off than those who don’t.

essendon v Collingwood would still result in a 0 advantage overall if you gave them both a + for not traveling. You just end up with the teams which travel more often getting recognition for it.
 

LoungeLizard

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But the travel advantage / disadvantage doesn’t equal out over the course of a season across the competition

as you acknowledge it plays a large role in hga so it needs to be applied for each game. Teams which travel more often are worse off than those who don’t.

essendon v Collingwood would still result in a 0 advantage overall if you gave them both a + for not traveling. You just end up with the teams which travel more often getting recognition for it.
Then use your logic, WC travel 10 times a year, but WC play 10 teams that have traveled the same distance, so net value = 0
 

bh90210fan

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Ground rationalisation in Melbourne has made it easier for the Eagles to win ‘away’ games.

That is the ******* entire point.

You still play home games against Melbourne, Collingwood, Hawthorn at Optus, your home venue for ALL 11 home games. Nothing changed for Eagles home games.

Instead of playing an ‘away’ game against Collingwood at VicPark, it is now often at Etihad

Instead of playing the Hawks at Waverley, it could be Etihad or York Park.

Instead of Carlton at Princes Park, you get them at Etihad

Instead of the Dogs at Whitten Oval, you get them at Etihad.

Instead of Richond at the G, it is sometimes at Etihad

Instead of Melbourne at the G, it is now sometimes in Darwin.

The ‘away’ disadvantage experienced by the Eagles has been reduced. They now play at generic grounds like Etihad 3 or 4 times a season in away games, which also often not their opponents preferred home venue, and also usually involves playing an ‘away’ game where the ‘home’ team is also traveling.

It really shouldn’t be that difficult a concept to follow.

But no you Eagles nuffies opt to run with a herp deep argument of they chose to sell it so Eagles somehow magically still experience the full away disadvantage.

Which obviously makes no sense, as it completely ignores that many of the components that actually make up the ‘advantage’ part of home advantage are gone.
You know ground rationalisation has made it easier for Melbourne teams to win away games too, right?

Non Victorians get fewer games on the mcg today than they did in the friggin 90’s.
 

doppleganger

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But the travel advantage / disadvantage doesn’t equal out over the course of a season across the competition

as you acknowledge it plays a large role in hga so it needs to be applied for each game. Teams which travel more often are worse off than those who don’t.

essendon v Collingwood would still result in a 0 advantage overall if you gave them both a + for not traveling. You just end up with the teams which travel more often getting recognition for it.
?? It does that

Hawthorn v Port at the G gives travel disadvantage to Port

Hawthorn v Port in Tassie removes the travel advantage, as Hawthorn also travel.

Hawthorn now travel 9 times, only 1 less than Port.

It is Hawthorn that are picking up a travel burden, not Port.

Port gets 10 teams coming and traveling to play them on their own dung heap.

Hawthorn doesn’t.
 

GhostofJimJess

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Remember the "travel shortens careers"?
WC have no 300 game players.
Either have Richmond since West Coast's inception in 1987.

Similarly, Richmond have had only a small fraction of the father/son players that clubs such as Geelong, Collingwood and Western Bulldogs have had. Sometimes it's just the luck of genetics or circumstance, rather than how much you've been screwed over.
 

doppleganger

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You know ground rationalisation has made it easier for Melbourne teams to win away games too, right?

Non Victorians get fewer games on the mcg today than they did in the friggin 90’s.
LOL

Melbourne teams experience a reduction in home advantage AND away disadvantage.

Non-Melbourne teams experienced no reduction in their home advantage, but did see away disadvantage reduced.

You are really battling.
 
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LoungeLizard

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Either have Richmond since West Coast's inception in 1987.

Similarly, Richmond have had only a small fraction of the father/son players that clubs such as Geelong, Collingwood and Western Bulldogs have had. Sometimes it's just the luck of genetics or circumstance, rather than how much you've been screwed over.
I think Melbourne has 1 in over 100 years, that walk down to the G is tough.
 

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doppleganger

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And Collingwood travel five times less than us each year, value = +5
You are almost getting it.

The problem is you don’t acknowledge that often some of your away games, that you aren’t the only team traveling.

As you say, you need to acknowledge the travel burden....except when the Eagles are playing a Melbourne team who travels, you like to exclude that.

You then also like to ignore ground familiarity being a factor when you play a team like the Pies or Hawks at Etihad.

Funny how you have a habit of conveniently overlooking all these reductions in your away disadvantage. They only seem to apply against the Eagles.
 
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kranky al

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??

You can’t have teams play each other that are both advantaged! The advantage enjoyed by one team, is the disadvantage faced by the other...they zero out.

You still don’t get it.
You then work your way up to +10/-10 for games where one team is at their home and the other has to fly to play them.

What makes up the +10 is the point

+x for flying/-x not flying
+x for crowd/-x no crowd
+x for ground familiarity/-x
+x for routine sleeping/ -x
+x for psych factors defending territory

So yeah, in a game at Pies home game at Etihad against the Eagles, Eagles cop travel, routine, crowd, psych factors...but they are just as familiar at Etihad as the Pies are, hence dropped the advantage/disadvantage from 10 to 8

Dees for Eagles in NT, both fly, both lose routine, neither have psych advantage, crowd is neutral so only question is ground familiarity...playing 1 game a year v 1 randomly, so yeah make that a nominal small advantage...because both teams face a travel burden there is no advantage/disadvantage.

Same reason why have Geelong +10 for games at CatPark against non-vic teams, but just +5 for Melbourne teams...the Melbourne teams don’t get the same level of disadvantage.

So the travel ‘burden’ has been acknowledged, the application is consistent, the problem is you refuse to acknowledge that a team ‘selling’ a home game also faces a travel burden.
you keep giving melbourne and kangas ganes as reasons we get a leg up when we beat melbourne anywhere we play them and are ten times more likely to beat melbourne in melbourne.

if we were offered to never play melbourne or kangas home games away from mcg and etihad respectively wed snatch it so quickly you would have to count your fingers afterwards.
 

kranky al

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Ground rationalisation in Melbourne has made it easier for the Eagles to win ‘away’ games.

That is the ******* entire point.

You still play home games against Melbourne, Collingwood, Hawthorn at Optus, your home venue for ALL 11 home games. Nothing changed for Eagles home games.

Instead of playing an ‘away’ game against Collingwood at VicPark, it is now often at Etihad

Instead of playing the Hawks at Waverley, it could be Etihad or York Park.

Instead of Carlton at Princes Park, you get them at Etihad

Instead of the Dogs at Whitten Oval, you get them at Etihad.

Instead of Richond at the G, it is sometimes at Etihad

Instead of Melbourne at the G, it is now sometimes in Darwin.

The ‘away’ disadvantage experienced by the Eagles has been reduced. They now play at generic grounds like Etihad 3 or 4 times a season in away games, which also often not their opponents preferred home venue, and also usually involves playing an ‘away’ game where the ‘home’ team is also traveling.

It really shouldn’t be that difficult a concept to follow.

But no you Eagles nuffies opt to run with a herp deep argument of they chose to sell it so Eagles somehow magically still experience the full away disadvantage.

Which obviously makes no sense, as it completely ignores that many of the components that actually make up the ‘advantage’ part of home advantage are gone.
stop trying to make out like playing a team at princes park homeground is harder than playing them at another ground they play 10+ games a year at.

its really stretching to try to score a lame point.
 

doppleganger

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stop trying to make out like playing a team at princes park homeground is harder than playing them at another ground they play 10+ games a year at.

its really stretching to try to score a lame point.
Carlton don’t play 10 games at any venue anymore.

That IS the point

They have lost any ground familiarity advantage they enjoyed.

That is fine when it is against another Melbourne team, as both teams equally impacted.

It is only the non-Melbourne teams who are advantaged.
 

doppleganger

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you keep giving melbourne and kangas ganes as reasons we get a leg up when we beat melbourne anywhere we play them and are ten times more likely to beat melbourne in melbourne.
It isn’t about individual teams.

It is about home advantage/away disadvantage.

Airplane travel, disruption to routine, not sleeping in your own bed, a lack of ground familiarity, not playing in front of home supporters all seemed to be acknowledged as disadvantages by Eagles fans.

Except when a Melbourne based team experiences all of that, then none of that has an impact.

The old herp derp it is still a ‘home game’ they chose to sell it line gets trotted out.
 

kranky al

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It isn’t about individual teams.

It is about home advantage/away disadvantage.

Airplane travel, disruption to routine, not sleeping in your own bed, a lack of ground familiarity, not playing in front of home supporters all seemed to be acknowledged as disadvantages by Eagles fans.

Except when a Melbourne based team experiences all of that, then none of that has an impact.

The old herp derp it is still a ‘home game’ they chose to sell it line gets trotted out.
you keep trotting out the kangas who have a one hour flight to tassie, play a game, then fly home straight after as the equivalent to a 4 hour and 32 minute flight a day before, a hotel stay, and then a 4 hour 32 minute flight home.

its not. as a tall person i can tell you for a fact the flight from gero to perth (coincidentally 1 hour as well) is nothing - you get on the plane, very soon you are back off - you arent stiff or sore its a nothing.

after a 4.5 hour flight you are feeling it a lot more - after playing a hard game of footy - your opposition is in ice baths getting massages then off to bed and you are getting home at 2 in the morning stiff and sore.

to try to conflate the two is puerile.
 

doppleganger

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Away advantage?? Think you’re the one battling mate
Are you still sticking with your two teams can have an advantage against each other in the same game line?

Still sticking with your airplane travel, sleeping in hotels, regular routine disruption, not playing at familiar ground and being away from home supporters is only a disadvantage if you are the ‘away’ team line.
 

doppleganger

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you keep trotting out the kangas who have a one hour flight to tassie, play a game, then fly home straight after as the equivalent to a 4 hour and 32 minute flight a day before, a hotel stay, and then a 4 hour 32 minute flight home.

its not. as a tall person i can tell you for a fact the flight from gero to perth (coincidentally 1 hour as well) is nothing - you get on the plane, very soon you are back off - you arent stiff or sore its a nothing.

after a 4.5 hour flight you are feeling it a lot more - after playing a hard game of footy - your opposition is in ice baths getting massages then off to bed and you are getting home at 2 in the morning stiff and sore.

to try to conflate the two is puerile.
I am not conflating anything of the sort.

I barely mention the kangas, you keep fecking talking about the kangas.

I refer to Hawthorn and Melbourne, two supposedly advantaged MCG tenants.

Etihad teams are the most disadvantaged of all teams.

For the majority of teams, flights are 1 hr or so.

Melb play Adelaide in NT

BOTH teams travel, but Adelaide have the shorter trip.

It is pretty simple logic to follow through that any advantage Melbourne would have gained from playing at the G because Adelaide players had to fly, sleep in hotels, have normal routine disrupted, not face a one sided crowd would mean that the advantage and disadvantage are both reduced..if BOTH teams deal with it. Not according to the herp deep Eagles, it is still a Melbourne ‘home’ game so full away disadvantage exhibited.

Hawthorn have been able to still gain an advantage in Tassie because they are still more familiar with the ground, and get decent ground support. But the advantage is clearly reduced because they too now face airplane travel, disruption to routine, sleeping in alternate bed and lose the psychological edge that playing at home in front of your home supporters is meant to bring...unless you actually think all of that doesn’t matter.

But no the Eagles are clear that travel, sleeping in a hotel, having routine disrupted is a big disadvantage for them...just not for other teams.

The Eagles travel further than Adelaide, so must be at a disadvantage compared to Adelaide clubs.

Be good to see if any stats that show the Eagles are disadvantaged compared to Adelaide? That would show the actual impact of duration of flight, compared to the instances of traveling itself.
 

bh90210fan

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Are you still sticking with your two teams can have an advantage against each other in the same game line?

Still sticking with your airplane travel, sleeping in hotels, regular routine disruption, not playing at familiar ground and being away from home supporters is only a disadvantage if you are the ‘away’ team line.
Attributing a + or a - score to every team depending on whether they are traveling or not means Hawthorn would get a - score every time they played in Tasmania

not just the ‘away’ side. What are you on about??

if you agree that travel is an impost than those who do it more often must be disadvantaged overall in the h&a. You have to recognise it somehow
 

doppleganger

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Attributing a + or a - score to every team depending on whether they are traveling or not means Hawthorn would get a - score every time they played in Tasmania

not just the ‘away’ side. What are you on about??

if you agree that travel is an impost than those who do it more often must be disadvantaged overall in the h&a. You have to recognise it somehow
Again you don’t get it.

Home advantage isn’t solely about travel.

I listed for you five different components that I think contribute to home ground advantage.

You assess each game individually, if one team receives an advantage the other is disadvantaged by the same amount.

You always have to review the circumstances of BOTH teams.

If BOTH teams travel, sleep in hotels and face disruption to their regular routine...then travel isn’t a factor in any advantage in that game.

Which is why Hawthorn traveling for a ‘home’ game and joining their opponent with an airplane trip, night sleeping in hotels, disruption to regular game routine means they have just seen components of the home advantage gone.

You can’t then assign that game a +10/-10 if a +10 is supposed to reflect situation where one team is at home sleeping in their own bed with normal routine and playing in front of the own rabid fans at home.

So yes, I acknowledge that a team like Hawthorn who travel for four home games is in fact dudded...you keep trying to claim they ‘host’ six teams at home.
 
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