Scandal Jack Ziebell coward punched

[the big lebowski]

here is the thing though
the vast majority of people in prisons are not those people

like the vast majority

there are people in prison for unpaid fines because they are homeless
and I don't mean one or two

like I said, you don't build society for Martin Bryant, but that's the argument you are making by only talking about extreme cases like they justify locking everyone else up / like they are the only people that get locked up

I can accept the notion that more people go to jail than should. That’s totally fair.

It seems hard to believe people go to jail for being homeless yet the guy this thread is based on skipped jail for waiting outside with a group of mates and then coward punching someone then viciously beating them up when they were on the ground.

I’d also say that humans are inherently violent when given free rein. And it’s been that way forever. But that’s another matter entirely.

 

[Gralin]

I can accept the notion that more people go to jail than should. That’s totally fair.

It's also accurate

It seems hard to believe people go to jail for being homeless yet the guy this thread is based on skipped jail for waiting outside with a group of mates and then coward punching someone then viciously beating them up when they were on the ground.

You should look up the lovely tough on crime bail laws in Victoria
This is fun also

Ace woke up to police at her door. She spent three months in jail before a judge let her out

A gradual tightening of bail laws has fundamentally shifted who goes to prison and why. With a record percentage of prisoners on remand, experts warn that people are being unnecessarily pushed into incarceration.

www.abc.net.au

I’d also say that humans are inherently violent when given free rein. And it’s been that way forever. But that’s another matter entirely.

And it's been dealt with for longer than prisons have existed

 

[the big lebowski]

It's also accurate

You should look up the lovely tough on crime bail laws in Victoria
This is fun also

Ace woke up to police at her door. She spent three months in jail before a judge let her out

A gradual tightening of bail laws has fundamentally shifted who goes to prison and why. With a record percentage of prisoners on remand, experts warn that people are being unnecessarily pushed into incarceration.

www.abc.net.au

And it's been dealt with for longer than prisons have existed

What an odd article to use to justify your position that too many people go to jail.

She was charged with serious drug charges, got found guilty and was free to go.

“Only a small fraction of drug possession charges result in a custodial sentence”

Its right there

 

[Kappa]

Well we don't have less crime with prisons and recidivism ratesbare high so the protect community and rehabilitation arguments you made aren't real

Prisons don't solve the root cause of crime, neither do more cops

You didn't answer, what would you replace prisons with that's better?

 

[Gralin]

You didn't answer, what would you replace prisons with that's better?

I posted about reinvestment in community just not in a post to you

 

[Kappa]

Hey look at the strawman argument good for you.

If prisons rehabilitate people why do so many end up in prison again?

Why are they more likely to escalate after being in prison?

Why do they commit crime in the first place if prison is a deterrent?

Where is the justice for victims?

Punishment isn't justice, retribution maybe, but not justice.

How does the prison system actually fix the problems it's sold as fixing?

Poverty is a much larger driver of crime than anything, imagine if all the money that went to prisons and cops instead went into communities and programs instead.

We know it works because everywhere they ever try it, it works.

Don't build society around Martin Bryant

This is some seriously poor arguments.

Prisons are there to rehabilitate people, no one said they're "good" at it, but that's one of their roles undoubtedly, and they do try it, some places better than others, particularly minimum security prisons.

"Why do they commit crime in the first place if prison is a deterrent?" Jesus this is primary school level logic. A deterrent doesn't mean it stops 100% of people from doing it . It does stop a lot of people.

"Where is the justice for victims?". It's up to the legal system to provide justice. Who are you to decide what is and what isn't justice???

"How does the prison system actually fix the problems it's sold as fixing?" Prison isn't there to "fix" crime, it's one tool society uses in the fight against crime. You can argue about how effective it is, but that's a completely different argument.

Yes, fixing poverty would be fantastic, pointless discussion though.

 

[Kappa]

I posted about reinvestment in community just not in a post to you

Can you explain more? Where do serial killers go if not prison?

 

[Gralin]

This is some seriously poor arguments.

Prisons are there to rehabilitate people, no one said they're "good" at it, but that's one of their roles undoubtedly, and they do try iin some places, particularly minimum security prisons.

"Why do they commit crime in the first place if prison is a deterrent?" Jesus this is primary school level logic. A deterrent doesn't mean it stops 100% of people from doing it . It does stop a lot of people.

"Where is the justice for victims?". It's up to the legal system to provide justice. Who are you to decide what is and what isn't justice???

"How does the prison system actually fix the problems it's sold as fixing?" Prison isn't there to "fix" crime, it's one tool society uses in the fight against crime. You can argue about how effective it is, but that's a completely different argument.

Yes, fixing poverty would be fantastic, pointless discussion though.

I mean you're the guy who cheered on the cops tasing a 90+ year old woman with dementia in a nursing home so I'm not really fussed by you not getting it

 

[Gralin]

Can you explain more? Where do serial killers go if not prison?

Been over this Kappa don't need to repeat myself if you can't read

 

[Kappa]

which is why I was saying that Kappa list was bullshit

What do you mean bullshit? It's literally not open for debate, that is objectively the purposes of prison

Deter, punish, protect society and rehabilitate. You can argue how successful it is at those, but you can't argue that it's the purpose...

 

[Kappa]

Been over this Kappa don't need to repeat myself if you can't read

It's a very simple answer, would've been quicker just to answer this than write the sentence saying you're not answering.

In your system with no prison, where do dangerous criminals go?

 

[Kappa]

I mean you're the guy who cheered on the cops tasing a 90+ year old woman with dementia in a nursing home so I'm not really fussed by you not getting it

Did I? Can you quote the post where I cheered for it? Thanks.

I don't get it because your logic is extremely poor. You're trying to argue against facts with strawman arguments that no one is even contesting.

You literally said prison isn't a deterrent because some people still commit crime, do you understand how hilariously silly this is?

 

[Dan Moody]

here is the thing though
the vast majority of people in prisons are not those people

like the vast majority

the vast majority of society are not in jail, which means the minority in jail aren't good enough to live in society.
parking fines, lol give me a break. domestic abusers hardly go to jail these days.
if you commit a misdemeanor that warrants incarceration, you deserve to be punished first, possibly rehabilitated later.
where has society gone wrong that it's first thought is for the welfare and rehabilitation of the offender in the first instance rather than punishing them for a crime committed that warrants incarceration?

 

[Gralin]

What do you mean bullshit? It's literally not open for debate, that is objectively the purposes of prison

Deter, punish, protect society and rehabilitate. You can argue how successful it is at those, but you can't argue that it's the purpose...

it is open for debate and I am saying that what they tell you the purpose of prison is, is in fact bullshit

all of our data about crime tends to come from the cops who kind of have a vested interest in telling us that they are doing a good job but with more funding could do a better job

punishment is not a deterrent for crime, it only enters the equation if the person believes they will be caught and we know people always think bad things wont happen to them

Prison doesn't address any of the issue that lead to people being in prison and it sure as s**t doesn't rehabilitate them

Did I? Can you quote the post where I cheered for it? Thanks.

my apologies that was adammania I get the two of you confused because of your often equally s**t positions on these topics

the vast majority of society are not in jail, which means the minority in jail aren't good enough to live in society.
parking fines, lol give me a break. domestic abusers hardly go to jail these days.
if you commit a misdemeanor that warrants incarceration, you deserve to be punished first, possibly rehabilitated later.
where has society gone wrong that it's first thought is for the welfare and rehabilitation of the offender in the first instance rather than punishing them for a crime committed that warrants incarceration?

yeah i posted about this above, 40% of people in prison currently have not been convicted and a lot of them have been charged with crimes that do no carry a prison sentence

yet they will spend months in prison prior to their trial because of how bail laws work

so yes you can get picked up for vagrancy, unpaid fines, drug possession, lots of non violent things and end up in prison until you get community service or another fine as punishment

add to that if you don't have a fixed address to be released to you will stay in jail instead

if someone steals food because they can't afford to buy it I kind of think the first thought should be for their welfare, not punishing them

if someone has an addiction they should be treated for that through the healthcare system, not put in prison

what does punishment achieve other than saying as a society we like to commit violence against people we think deserve it?

 

[Dan Moody]

yeah i posted about this above, 40% of people in prison currently have not been convicted and a lot of them have been charged with crimes that do no carry a prison sentence

yet they will spend months in prison prior to their trial because of how bail laws work

so yes you can get picked up for vagrancy, unpaid fines, drug possession, lots of non violent things and end up in prison until you get community service or another fine as punishment

add to that if you don't have a fixed address to be released to you will stay in jail instead

if someone steals food because they can't afford to buy it I kind of think the first thought should be for their welfare, not punishing them

if someone has an addiction they should be treated for that through the healthcare system, not put in prison

what does punishment achieve other than saying as a society we like to commit violence against people we think deserve it?

dude, i have a mate that's a copper (actually make that 2 mates) and he says the force is so wound up in bureaucracy that they have very little time to actually attend things other than serious assaults. if there are cops that are issuing fines or worse for vagrancy then they've been on the job less than 3 years. one of the girls at work's husband works in the remand centre at Spencer St. She says the stuff they have to deal with is horrific and there are no lightweights in there awaiting charges.

as far as food theft goes, I tend to agree. that is if they are a genuine hardship case knocking off groceries just to live, not lifting jack daniels from the shelves at dan murphys.

for addiction, absolutely the first instance should be prevention but it's when junkies become violent that gives most people the shits. unfortunately meth is the flavour of the month and that doesn't chill people out. if they commit violence, throw them in a cell, don't give them 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances

 

[Gralin]

dude, i have a mate that's a copper (actually make that 2 mates) and he says the force is so wound up in bureaucracy that they have very little time to actually attend things other than serious assaults. if there are cops that are issuing fines or worse for vagrancy then they've been on the job less than 3 years. one of the girls at work's husband works in the remand centre at Spencer St. She says the stuff they have to deal with is horrific and there are no lightweights in there awaiting charges.

as far as food theft goes, I tend to agree. that is if they are a genuine hardship case knocking off groceries just to live, not lifting jack daniels from the shelves at dan murphys.

for addiction, absolutely the first instance should be prevention but it's when junkies become violent that gives most people the shits. unfortunately meth is the flavour of the month and that doesn't chill people out. if they commit violence, throw them in a cell, don't give them 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances

I've got family that are coppers, doesn't change my view on our prison and "justice" system or the root cause of most of the issues being things governments could fix but they don't want to

so instead we get more cops and more prisons and more people in them

anyway not really the thread for it so I'll leave now

 

[adammania9]

Gee this Gralin nutcase is an absolute clown. Go outside and touch some grass.

 

[adammania9]

Been over this Kappa don't need to repeat myself if you can't read

Your solution to killing people is investing in social programs? Gee wiz. You’ve clearly spent more hours than it’s worth deliberating on this topic and this is what you’ve come up with?

 

[PP34]

Should have been jailed.

What sort of deterrent is a fine?

The *******s will get pissed again in a few months and belt someone again.

Seen it many times how these sort of people operate. A few drinks in them and they’re looking for any excuse to start trouble. My only hope is that they try the wrong blokes and get beaten to a pulp.

As pathetic as it gets.

It’s not a wake up call at all for any of them.

They’re probably laughing.

Nothing shocks me with Victoria though. You can commit a mass shooting here and be eligible for parole at some point.

 

[Gralin]

Gee this Gralin nutcase is an absolute clown. Go outside and touch some grass.

classy as always I see

 

[Gralin]

Go use your mod powers to spit the dummy again because you disagree with someone’s stance

Do you search the site for your name?

you showed up pretty quick after I mentioned you to start throwing insults

like how you told people to cry more when they criticised the cops for tasing a 94 year old woman with dementia

can always count on you to bring the standard down to the gutter

 

[adammania9]

my apologies that was adammania I get the two of you confused because of your often equally s**t positions on these topics

Yeah super classy, champ. Give but can’t take.

There’s a real world out there, dude. Carrying on the way you do online is embarrassing.

 

[adammania9]

Do you search the site for your name?

you showed up pretty quick after I mentioned you to start throwing insults

like how you told people to cry more when they criticised the cops for tasing a 94 year old woman with dementia

can always count on you to bring the standard down to the gutter

This is a watched thread, champ. She shouldn’t have been approaching him with a knife.

 

[Gralin]

This is a watched thread, champ. She shouldn’t have been approaching him with a knife.

oh no I've been clowned and champed how will I ever recover

good to see you're still defending the cops killing people while wanting others locked up for it though

real top shelf logic, enjoy the rest of your day

 

[adammania9]

oh no I've been clowned and champed how will I ever recover

good to see you're still defending the cops killing people while wanting others locked up for it though

real top shelf logic, enjoy the rest of your day

I carried on with my life and you sulked about it endlessly online. That’s the difference between you and I.

You were asked by Kappa to provide a solution to not imprisoning people and came up with “invest in programs”. Wow what a mastermind you are. Then asked to provide a solution to killing people and your response was “I have already been over this”. Huh????

Are you comparing that cop to Martin Bryant?