Coach Justin Longmuir Pt 2

[dropbear101]

this is us

 

[dropbear101]

also us

 

[dockshark]

this is us

also us:

 

[Dockeroo]

lol of course the dockers have been inconsistent.
True consistency is what Sydney and Geelong have achieved over the last 15-20 years. Playing finals 70-80% of the time over that period.
Up until their wheels fell off in 2021, id include west coast in that bracket too.
An odd down year or two for all three of these clubs over a LONG period of time but still regular finals appearances and plenty of flags to share between them.

Some people have very modest expectations
Mine arent even that high for freo - heck I’d settle for one flag with this team.

 

[blue shark]

lol of course the dockers have been inconsistent.
True consistency is what Sydney and Geelong have achieved over the last 15-20 years. Playing finals 70-80% of the time over that period.
Up until their wheels fell off in 2021, id include west coast in that bracket too.
An odd down year or two for all three of these clubs over a LONG period of time but still regular finals appearances and plenty of flags to share between them.

Some people have very modest expectations
Mine arent even that high for freo - heck I’d settle for one flag with this team.

Interesting that all 3 clubs mentioned, all had new coaches appointed and
had made a GF within a few years.
For all the talk on rebuilding and drafts, this missing piece of the puzzle is always
ignored.
Those clubs were well run and they nailed the criteria and new direction required for success.
Swans in that 05-06 period had Roos, Horse, and Lyon in the box. Which became
a succession plan, with Ross taking over the Saints.
We all know the connection with Scott.
Simpson took over in 2014 and made a GF in 2015.
All we are asking for is a 50 percent winning record and be in contention for finals.
We don’t have the experience, or mature bodies mixing with youth to be a top
4 team.
But you do expect to see improvement and a style of coaching to have a positive
outlook for the future.
Another 2023 and it’s hard to sell a club that promises plenty and delivers subpar
performances.

 

[Dockeroo]

The hard ball gets 2 min warning was excellent on freo this week.
Here it is from 26:30 min in. Rhino spoke really eloquently on the passing of Cam McCarthy too.



Xav has one of the sharpest footy brains in the media in general and he nails it in his comments on freos gamestyle here, which are very relevant to the discussion in this thread on the coach.

As several of us have been saying here for years now - the over-handballing has gotta stop.
As Ellis sort of alluded to, there’s a pattern developing here over recent seasons. We go out against teams with low pressure and everyone’s getting 30 touches and we win and look a million dollars. The BF optimists come in here and say where are all you naysayers now?

Normally these are the weakest teams in the comp but every now and then we will catch a big fish on the hop like Melbourne Demons a couple of times at the MCG, and one or two others.

Then when the top teams are fully tuned in, bring the heat and there no complacency - Justin Longmuirs Fremantle are blown away. Any final against a serious contender, such as Collingwood in 2022 - the handball happy gameplan Will not stand up. It’s like taking candy from a baby for the elite pressure midfields.

He’s got to change this??? Surely? It’s so bloody obvious. Sumich was correct about his tweaks, it doesn’t need wholesale changes. Just because he’s an arsehole didn’t make what he said that time wrong.

 

[DragoDelph]

The hard ball gets 2 min warning was excellent on freo this week.
Here it is from 26:30 min in. Rhino spoke really eloquently on the passing of Cam McCarthy too.



Xav has one of the sharpest footy brains in the media in general and he nails it in his comments on freos gamestyle here, which are very relevant to the discussion in this thread on the coach.

As several of us have been saying here for years now - the over-handballing has gotta stop.
As Ellis sort of alluded to, there’s a pattern developing here over recent seasons. We go out against teams with low pressure and everyone’s getting 30 touches and we win and look a million dollars. The BF optimists come in here and say where are all you naysayers now?

Normally these are the weakest teams in the comp but every now and then we will catch a big fish on the hop like Melbourne Demons a couple of times at the MCG, and one or two others.

Then when the top teams are fully tuned in, bring the heat and there no complacency - Justin Longmuirs Fremantle are blown away. Any final against a serious contender, such as Collingwood in 2022 - the handball happy gameplan Will not stand up. It’s like taking candy from a baby for the elite pressure midfields.

He’s got to change this??? Surely? It’s so bloody obvious. Sumich was correct about his tweaks, it doesn’t need wholesale changes. Just because he’s an ******** didn’t make what he said that time wrong.

The issue with Suma was not that he suggested tweaks, but that when pressed, he gave no insight into what

I largely agree with the overall, and think the team needs to learn when to switch to a kick option. We often go one handball too many.

Does this relate to a lack of confidence in the young and out of form forward line to win their relative contest? So they try and find the perfect option atm instead of just an option?

 

[Dockeroo]

The issue with Suma was not that he suggested tweaks, but that when pressed, he gave no insight into what

I largely agree with the overall, and think the team needs to learn when to switch to a kick option. We often go one handball too many.

Does this relate to a lack of confidence in the young and out of form forward line to win their relative contest? So they try and find the perfect option atm instead of just an option?

I’m not sure. I feel like Treacy is a great ballwinner in a one on one contest for example, so one would think the sooner it’s kicked into him the better. At times Fyfe has rested down there too in attack and looked great one on one.

I reckon Serong and Brayshaw are great coaches favourites in that they will try implement the game plan to the best of their ability. It’s those two in particular that go over the top on the overuse of the ball. They are great players don’t get me wrong but bi don’t think either are quite damaging enough for the amount of touches they get.

I felt like this handball approach out of the middle worked best in 2022 when it was Mundy that was often delivering the ball inside 50 after a flurry of Serong and AB handballs. Of course no body kicks the ball like Mundy in the current midfield, not even young (who is pretty good by foot) so it wasn’t surprising in hindsight it didn’t work so well last year.
All I know is that in finals you just don’t get the luxury of complex and intricate handball chains though traffic.

Agree with you on Sumich too - maybe he was just too dumb to outline what the tweak should be, but there’s definitely one needed.

 

[doppo]

lol of course the dockers have been inconsistent.
True consistency is what Sydney and Geelong have achieved over the last 15-20 years. Playing finals 70-80% of the time over that period.
Up until their wheels fell off in 2021, id include west coast in that bracket too.
An odd down year or two for all three of these clubs over a LONG period of time but still regular finals appearances and plenty of flags to share between them.

Some people have very modest expectations
Mine arent even that high for freo - heck I’d settle for one flag with this team.

I think the difficulty in the term inconsistent is that the word can correctly apply to two very different situations in regards to a teams tilt at a flag.

Say you have a great team, regular top 4 - they are by definition, extremely consistent. You can show up without worrying about how they are going to perform. Similar down the other end of the ladder. Think North. They are also extremely consistent, except they are consistently terrible.

In between those two extremes, you have -
a) teams that are a young list that are building towards a tilt at the flag in the coming years. Part and parcel of young teams is that they have moments where they look amazing, but are frustratingly inconsistent. It takes a critical mass of games together and experience before they can be trusted week in and week out. I would include Freo in that category. Building but inconsistent.
b) teams that are going the other way. Had their crack at the flag, and now the list needs to be rebuilt. However they still have a lot of older players that on their day can still dominate. But those players will soon be gone, and the team will probably be down the bottom for a couple of years

Both teams are inconsistent but it's not really the same thing is it? And on any given day, team b might beat team a.

A reminder -
Last years grandfinalists ranked at the start of 2024 -
Collingwood - Oldest, and 3rd most experienced.
Brisbane - 4th oldest, 4th most experienced

Freo start of 2024 - 15th oldest, and 17th most experienced.

I understand the discussion here is potentially more about inconsistency over 30 years, and thats fine. But it's not really fair on this current group to say we've been crap for x amount of years therefore we need success yesterday. And that's not to say it's just a matter of sitting back and waiting - many of the criticisms of the current coaching / gameplan I agree with. But I feel like some people on here judge the current team with 30 years of trauma as a basis of reasoning rather than for where the list actually is.

 

[MadEyeEmmy]

I think the difficulty in the term inconsistent that the word can correctly apply describe two very different situations of a teams tilt at a flag.

Say you have a great team, regular top 4 - they are by definition, extremely consistent. You can show up without worrying about how they are going to perform. Similar down the other end of the ladder. Think North. They are also extremely consistent, except they are consistently terrible.

In between those two extremes, you have -
a) teams that are a young list that are building towards a tilt at the flag in the coming years. Part and parcel of young teams is that they have moments where they look amazing, but are frustratingly inconsistent. It takes a critical mass of games together and experience before they can be trusted week in and week out. I would include Freo in that category. Building but inconsistent.
b) teams that are going the other way. Had their crack at the flag, and now the list needs to be rebuilt. However they still have a lot of older players that on their day can still dominate. But those players will soon be gone, and the team will probably be down the bottom for a couple of years

Both teams are inconsistent but it's not really the same thing is it? And on any given day, team b might beat team a.

A reminder -
Last years grandfinalists ranked at the start of 2024 -
Collingwood - Oldest, and 3rd most experienced.
Brisbane - 4th oldest, 4th most experienced

Freo start of 2024 - 15th oldest, and 17th most experienced.

I understand the discussion here is potentially more about inconsistency over 30 years, and thats fine. But it's not really fair on this current group to say we've been crap for x amount of years therefore we need success yesterday. And that's not say it's just a matter of sitting back and waiting - many of the criticisms of the current coaching / gameplan I agree with. But I feel like people on here judge the current team with 30 years of trauma as a basis of reasoning rather than for where the list actually is.

OMG hard agree with all of this. Great post.

Also, in a way the club shot itself in the foot by bringing out that promise to win X number of flags by 2025 or whatever it was they said. It was purely marketing based but of course some of the supporters now are foaming at the mouth and saying “where are those flags you promised?!”. Basically that just fed into the supporter trauma Reality is we are still very young as you pointed out.

 

[poshman]

The hard ball gets 2 min warning was excellent on freo this week.
Here it is from 26:30 min in. Rhino spoke really eloquently on the passing of Cam McCarthy too.



Xav has one of the sharpest footy brains in the media in general and he nails it in his comments on freos gamestyle here, which are very relevant to the discussion in this thread on the coach.

As several of us have been saying here for years now - the over-handballing has gotta stop.
As Ellis sort of alluded to, there’s a pattern developing here over recent seasons. We go out against teams with low pressure and everyone’s getting 30 touches and we win and look a million dollars. The BF optimists come in here and say where are all you naysayers now?

Normally these are the weakest teams in the comp but every now and then we will catch a big fish on the hop like Melbourne Demons a couple of times at the MCG, and one or two others.

Then when the top teams are fully tuned in, bring the heat and there no complacency - Justin Longmuirs Fremantle are blown away. Any final against a serious contender, such as Collingwood in 2022 - the handball happy gameplan Will not stand up. It’s like taking candy from a baby for the elite pressure midfields.

He’s got to change this??? Surely? It’s so bloody obvious. Sumich was correct about his tweaks, it doesn’t need wholesale changes. Just because he’s an ******** didn’t make what he said that time wrong.

As an optimist I can say I haven't done the where are they now bit. I can also say that I agree we need to tweak the gameplan.

I have also said I am not sure JL is the man to take us forward.

All of those beliefs can be held and I can be optimistic about the quality and age profile of our list.

 

[poshman]

I think the difficulty in the term inconsistent that the word can correctly apply describe two very different situations of a teams tilt at a flag.

Say you have a great team, regular top 4 - they are by definition, extremely consistent. You can show up without worrying about how they are going to perform. Similar down the other end of the ladder. Think North. They are also extremely consistent, except they are consistently terrible.

In between those two extremes, you have -
a) teams that are a young list that are building towards a tilt at the flag in the coming years. Part and parcel of young teams is that they have moments where they look amazing, but are frustratingly inconsistent. It takes a critical mass of games together and experience before they can be trusted week in and week out. I would include Freo in that category. Building but inconsistent.
b) teams that are going the other way. Had their crack at the flag, and now the list needs to be rebuilt. However they still have a lot of older players that on their day can still dominate. But those players will soon be gone, and the team will probably be down the bottom for a couple of years

Both teams are inconsistent but it's not really the same thing is it? And on any given day, team b might beat team a.

A reminder -
Last years grandfinalists ranked at the start of 2024 -
Collingwood - Oldest, and 3rd most experienced.
Brisbane - 4th oldest, 4th most experienced

Freo start of 2024 - 15th oldest, and 17th most experienced.

I understand the discussion here is potentially more about inconsistency over 30 years, and thats fine. But it's not really fair on this current group to say we've been crap for x amount of years therefore we need success yesterday. And that's not to say it's just a matter of sitting back and waiting - many of the criticisms of the current coaching / gameplan I agree with. But I feel like people on here judge the current team with 30 years of trauma as a basis of reasoning rather than for where the list actually is.

Exactly. Two things I will highlight:

1. We are definitely in the inconsistent but building stage. Which if you accept it, should be a lot of fun! We get to ride the highs and watch as they learn and grow.

2. I get the long term frustration from day one fans. I am one. However, as it would be in business, it is lunacy to apply 30 years of frustration to this group. The board is different, the CEO is different, the coach and coaching staff are different and the players are different. Any employee would find it extremely unfair if frustrations from the previous decade and decades were taken out on them. It would be ridiculous.

 

[Raz]

I for one dont blame the players for being inconsistent over 30yrs. that is the CLUB leadership from the CEO and Board down. REcruitment of Coaches/ Assitants/ Operations managers etc.

We need a major change at board level to get the club on a path to success. Not jsut talking success. Put in place a plan for next 2-3 yrs then look for longer term too. Dont talk it up. Just do it.

The players will do as the culture of hte club leads them.

 

[dockshark]

OMG hard agree with all of this. Great post.

Also, in a way the club shot itself in the foot by bringing out that promise to win X number of flags by 2025 or whatever it was they said. It was purely marketing based but of course some of the supporters now are foaming at the mouth and saying “where are those flags you promised?!”. Basically that just fed into the supporter trauma Reality is we are still very young as you pointed out.

It wasn't a marketing initiative; it was a published strategy that underwent the board's review and authorisation process, complete with KPIs. It's reasonable for people to question why the club has not managed to meet the primary strategic objectives outlined in its own strategy. The board had complete access to the list's demographics and was fully aware of the risks and opportunities associated with its list management planning when the strategy was established. Many seem to be apologists for the club, ready to overlook any missteps and willing to forgive a significant degree of underperformance.

 

[noise36]

Another list which makes JL's remaining coaching career look grim.

 

[arsesmart]

Another list which makes JL's remaining coaching career look grim.

Essendon's draw is a gift they should cherish up to the final bit.

 

[arsesmart]

Another list which makes JL's remaining coaching career look grim.

Or the making of it.

 

[Kram]

Looking at our draw a lot of 50/50 type chance games.

 

[MadEyeEmmy]

It wasn't a marketing initiative; it was a published strategy that underwent the board's review and authorisation process, complete with KPIs. It's reasonable for people to question why the club has not managed to meet the primary strategic objectives outlined in its own strategy. The board had complete access to the list's demographics and was fully aware of the risks and opportunities associated with its list management planning when the strategy was established. Many seem to be apologists for the club, ready to overlook any missteps and willing to forgive a significant degree of underperformance.

Meh I disagree. I don’t think it’s realistic for any club to promise X number of flags in X number of years. When I heard that I basically dismissed it immediately, even if it was based on KPI’s and the fact that a board full of accountants and lawyers said so. Basically they wanted a something to sell to the supporters and keep them engaged, hence why I refer to it as a marketing strategy.

There is so much that goes into winning a flag, some of which is actually out of the clubs control. There are measurable things of course, but some of it boils down to plain good luck (injury list, favourable draw etc).

You can question ‘the plan’ if you want, but I’m not pinning all my hopes and dreams on it. Just enjoying the journey.

 

[chaosball32]

Gold Coast kicked 26 goals against a premiership contender in wet and dewy conditions tonight.

Fremantle kicked 4 goals against a premiership contender in wet and dewy conditions last week.

Lukosius and Humphrey kicked 5 each. King kicked 4. That’s 14 goals combined from their targets. Our targets (Treacy, Amiss, Voss) kicked 1 goal combined last week.

You can’t tell me Gold Coast’s forward line is that much more potent than ours. A lot of raw talent just like us.

After putting up with Ross and Longmuir ball for the last 12 years it makes me jealous watching other teams play with such freedom and generate scoring opportunities with ease. Our defence only style is not going to get us anywhere. Gold Coast proved tonight that the best defence is a good offence. They conceded 100 points and still won by 64.

 

[mattis117]

Gold Coast kicked 26 goals against a premiership contender in wet and dewy conditions tonight.

Fremantle kicked 4 goals against a premiership contender in wet and dewy conditions last week.

Lukosius and Humphrey kicked 5 each. King kicked 4. That’s 14 goals combined from their targets. Our targets (Treacy, Amiss, Voss) kicked 1 goal combined last week.

You can’t tell me Gold Coast’s forward line is that much more potent than ours. A lot of raw talent just like us.

After putting up with Ross and Longmuir ball for the last 12 years it makes me jealous watching other teams play with such freedom and generate scoring opportunities with ease. Our defence only style is not going to get us anywhere. Gold Coast proved tonight that the best defence is a good offence. They conceded 100 points and still won by 64.

Indeed, the collective minds of all AFL coaches pales in comparison to this solid rockbed analysis taken from a single game in Darwin.

I look forward to 45 goal games for the rest of the season.

 

[chaosball32]

Indeed, the collective minds of all AFL coaches pales in comparison to this solid rockbed analysis taken from a single game in Darwin.

I look forward to 45 goal games for the rest of the season.

I look forward to seeing us lift the premiership cup after kicking a whopping 4 goals and holding our opponents to 10 points

 

[ubiquitous226]

I look forward to seeing us lift the premiership cup after kicking a whopping 4 goals and holding our opponents to 10 points

There's a vent thread if all you want to do is have a whinge.

 

[dockshark]

Meh I disagree. I don’t think it’s realistic for any club to promise X number of flags in X number of years. When I heard that I basically dismissed it immediately, even if it was based on KPI’s and the fact that a board full of accountants and lawyers said so. Basically they wanted a something to sell to the supporters and keep them engaged, hence why I refer to it as a marketing strategy.

There is so much that goes into winning a flag, some of which is actually out of the clubs control. There are measurable things of course, but some of it boils down to plain good luck (injury list, favourable draw etc).

You can question ‘the plan’ if you want, but I’m not pinning all my hopes and dreams on it. Just enjoying the journey.

I don’t really know what you mean by disagree, it’s not really a matter of opinion. A strategy document is not a promise, it’s a statement of intent. Our board doesn’t have a single accountant on it and neither was there any lawyers up until a few weeks ago. I don’t understand why you would so readily accept the leadership of the club failing so spectacularly to even approach achieving their own objectives.

You may well be enjoying the journey but some of us have been on that journey for 30 years and are getting fatigued.

 

[chaosball32]

There's a vent thread if all you want to do is have a whinge.

It’s the Justin Longmuir thread and I’m criticising Justin Longmuir’s style of football?