LIVE Federal Election Coverage 2016

[GreyCrow]

Pauline Hanson will be blamed for the Kidman sale not going ahead. #freekickwhoeverformsgovernment

 

[Demosthenes]

Those records are hugely inflated by the amount of legislation that gets passed without anyone even debating it

That as may be, but it still shows that she comes along with the Coalition government far more often than with the Labor opposition.

She's hardly going to be massively obstructive in the event of a minority Coalition government, which is what many on these boards seem to be expecting.

 

[Forward Press]

Never voted for him but I think John Howard deserves to be rated as one of our best ever PMs. Getting the gun control laws passed is probably one of his finest achievements and I like to think the vast majority of Australians would give him plaudits for it.

Also speaks a lot of sense about this election - well at least in this bit on the ABC website when talking about the Libs angling to knife Malcolm:

They should remember the character of their party. As I have often said their party is a broad church.

He knew how to appease the left and right bits of his party.

 

[The Speaker]

Never voted for him but I think John Howard deserves to be rated as one of our best ever PMs. Getting the gun control laws passed is probably one of his finest achievements and I like to think the vast majority of Australians would give him plaudits for it.

Did he have any outstanding achievements other than that though?

He was very good at riding the wave of the day, but he didn't really have any long-term goal in mind during his time as leader. He wasn't a reformer in any sense either.

Also speaks a lot of sense about this election - well at least in this bit on the ABC website when talking about the Libs angling to knife Malcolm:

The broad church concept only works as long as there is something to be a broad church about. There is nothing to bring them together.

He knew how to appease the left and right bits of his party.

 

[JeffDunne]

John Howard shifted the political center of the country hard right.

We were probably the most liberal western democracy when he came to power and the most conservative when he lost power.

History won't view him well.

 

[Forward Press]

Did he have any outstanding achievements other than that though?

He was very good at riding the wave of the day, but he didn't really have any long-term goal in mind during his time as leader. He wasn't a reformer in any sense either.



The broad church concept only works as long as there is something to be a broad church about. There is nothing to bring them together.

Not really, but aside from my own personal misgivings about his handling of Tampa and broader criticism of the increasing security state since 9/11 (not that an ALP government would've done it differently btw), he was competent and the economy went along well. The proportion of the success that can be attributed to him and government is up for debate.

I don't remember any divisions in the Liberal Party at the time when he was PM aside from of course Costello constantly angling for his job. Maybe it's the nostalgia talking. The modern Liberal Party is now deeply divided and while I enjoy seeing them fail, I'd rather they got their shit together.

 

[The Speaker]

I'd rather they fall apart and ensure the realignment of Australian politics to the three party system that it should be.

 

[Forward Press]

John Howard shifted the political center of the country hard right.

We were probably the most liberal western democracy when he came to power and the most conservative when he lost power.

History won't view him well.

Examples of the 'hard right'? Certainly not as hard right as Tony and co.

 

[Demosthenes]

This was the poll where they asked who was the best prime minister and then compared Howard to about 5 Labor PMs (who naturally took votes from each other) and then made out that it was surprising that Howard got the highest overall vote in that scenario?

Pretty sure it included all PMs from Abbott back to at least Whitlam, so no, it's not the poll you're thinking of.

Anyway, I'm not arguing the validity of the poll's overall result - I certainly don't think Howard is the best PM.

My point is relative consistency of Howard's performance in it. They run the same poll every few years, and Howard's vote hasn't dropped off since he left office. That sort of gives the lie to the claim that the shine has come off his legacy.

 

[Forward Press]

I'd rather they fall apart and ensure the realignment of Australian politics to the three party system that it should be.

I'd like three or more major parties too but realistically it will be a two party system for a while yet.

 

[BIRDBRAIN]

The Iraq war was a stirring success, don't forget that one.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Not really, but aside from my own personal misgivings about his handling of Tampa and broader criticism of the increasing security state since 9/11 (not that an ALP government would've done it differently btw), he was competent and the economy went along well. The proportion of the success that can be attributed to him and government is up for debate.

I don't remember any divisions in the Liberal Party at the time when he was PM aside from of course Costello constantly angling for his job. Maybe it's the nostalgia talking. The modern Liberal Party is now deeply divided and while I enjoy seeing them fail, I'd rather they got their shit together.

The issue was that the economy was going well, but we have nothing to show for it once the good times ended, other than a tax cuts that put us in the crapper and a few more flat screens on peoples walls. There was no long term thinking with his handling of the economy.

 

[Forward Press]

The issue was that the economy was going well, but we have nothing to show for it once the good times ended, other than a tax cuts that put us in the crapper and a few more flat screens on peoples walls. There was no long term thinking with his handling of the economy.

Yeah you can definitely argue there was no long term vision, but I'm not convinced a Labor PM would've not done the same thing. Tax cuts are vote winners.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Pretty sure it included all PMs from Abbott back to at least Whitlam, so no, it's not the poll you're thinking of.

Anyway, I'm not arguing the validity of the poll's overall result - I certainly don't think Howard is the best PM.

My point is relative consistency of Howard's performance in it. They run the same poll every few years, and Howard's vote hasn't dropped off since he left office. That sort of gives the lie to the claim that the shine has come off his legacy.

I doubt the gloss comes off Howards years in the general populations mind, he looked after them well when he was in power, and most want link the long term effects of his policies and their issues now. Academics and economists on the other hand, but the are all raving lefties anyway so will be dismissed.

 

[The Speaker]

I'd like three or more major parties too but realistically it will be a two party system for a while yet.

More than three is only possible in some kind of extremely ugly continental European proportional system. Do not want in the House of Reps.

 

[Mateyman]

The issue was that the economy was going well, but we have nothing to show for it once the good times ended, other than a tax cuts that put us in the crapper and a few more flat screens on peoples walls. There was no long term thinking with his handling of the economy.

Speaking of, the TV we bought with Kevin 07's budget stimulus is just starting to break

 

[Forward Press]

The Iraq war was a stirring success, don't forget that one.

We were always following the US into that one. Even Tony Blair and Labour in the UK did.

 

[Mateyman]

More than three is only possible in some kind of extremely ugly continental European proportional system. Do not want in the House of Reps.

Yeah once you need the Coalition of more than 2 parties you end up with scenarios like they have in Spain.

 

[Forward Press]

More than three is only possible in some kind of extremely ugly continental European proportional system. Do not want in the House of Reps.

Speak for yourself, would like to see how a Greens/Lib/National coalition would work.

But yeah, preferential system means it will not happen in the foreseeable future.

 

[Mateyman]

That as may be, but it still shows that she comes along with the Coalition government far more often than with the Labor opposition.

She's hardly going to be massively obstructive in the event of a minority Coalition government, which is what many on these boards seem to be expecting.

She only has to block a couple of pieces of legislation to be a big problem in a minority government though

 

[madmug]

Gillard never got married herself. I think she's of that old school feminist mold that says marriage came out of a paternalistic concept of owning women, so why would a modern woman take part in it?

There's similar thinking from some gay writers. Given marriage for so long has been associated with religion and religions in the past weren't very nice to gay people, then some people think gay people shouldn't want to get married. I'd have to look at her comments more closely, but she was openly atheist and I wonder if her comments about tradition could have slyly said that she was listening to those opinions, without really endorsing the conservative schools of thought.

Of course in both cases the far more popular opinion is to say that marriage is about official commitment to loving one other, and a lot of people love the feeling of stability it gives - especially when they're setting off on the long-term project of building a family.

The act of marriage in a church is one of the pillars that they use to give themselves a central position of social control. Its a pity they didnt control their own child molesting employees a bit better.

Separation of church & state is nearly as important as plumbing in our modern society. Both keep the nasty bugs at bay, to some extent anyway

 

[JeffDunne]

Examples of the 'hard right'? Certainly not as hard right as Tony and co.

Ultimately a distinction without a difference.

Howard wasn't a man of conviction he was a populist. That's the difference between the two. Abbott would never have been a leader had Howard not came to power.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

We were always following the US into that one. Even Tony Blair and Labour in the UK did.

That's completely wrong, but crazily even senior Liberal MPs have made the same error before.

Labor was very much against going into Iraq and said it loudly and proudly at the time. Hundreds of people marched in the streets against it. Labour in the UK has no affiliation with Labor in Australia.

Howard & the LNP are entirely responsible for giving unquestioning support to the US (+UK) in this venture, which is the worst policy decision in my lifetime.

 

[Forward Press]

That's completely wrong, but crazily even senior Liberal MPs have made the same error before.

Labor was very much against going into Iraq and said it loudly and proudly at the time. Hundreds of people marched in the streets against it. Labour in the UK has no affiliation with Labor in Australia.

Howard & the LNP are entirely responsible for giving unquestioning support to the US (+UK) in this venture, which is the worst policy decision in my lifetime.

The Opposition would oppose, that's no surprise. I am saying that if it was an ALP government communicating with GWB in the US they would've done the same thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm anti-war and probably side with the ALP over the Libs in most things, but the political reality at the time meant we were going in no matter who was in power (imo).

Ultimately a distinction without a difference.

Howard wasn't a man of conviction he was a populist. That's the difference between the two. Abbott would never have been a leader had Howard not came to power.

Don't see how that's a negative, would rather a leader willing to change his or her opinions based on the sentiment of the people and govern accordingly.

 

[stormee]

That's completely wrong, but crazily even senior Liberal MPs have made the same error before.

Labor was very much against going into Iraq and said it loudly and proudly at the time. Hundreds of people marched in the streets against it. Labour in the UK has no affiliation with Labor in Australia.

Howard & the LNP are entirely responsible for giving unquestioning support to the US (+UK) in this venture, which is the worst policy decision in my lifetime.

To be fair, the US' decision was the bad one, Australia's decision could be argued to be calculated and rational.

At the end of the day we contributed a small force, achieved our objective (which I would define as continuing to show ourselves as a valuable ally of the US) with minimal loss, and left after we finished what we considered to be our job (and before the worst of the insurgency began).