Preview NAB AFL Draft

[hank31]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Not an elite one. You need to draft these midfielders. The recruiters are there to pick the gems from the duds. Mind you our recruitment team decided to overlook Barlow for some reason.[/quote]


Because your such an expert....
According to a bumped thread on here, you would still have Hislop on the list... Nuff said.......

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

this perception that you can simply trade for an elite ruckmen when you are "in your window" annoys the ****ing shit out of me.

It's bullshit.

You CAN'T trade for an elite ruckman, it won't happen. The best you can hope for is to snap up a 2nd tier ruck who isn't getting a game. Mumford is the example most people would use, but how often are you going to actually snag a decent up-and-comer?

If it's so easy to do this, I'd like half a dozen examples of when it's succeeded.

The other half of the equation I'm sure *some* haven't thought about, is exactly what do you trade to get said ruckman? A bag of chips?

It's the most brain-dead, short-sighted moronic philosophy I can almost think of. If a club's policy was to forget about rucks, you can simply trade a fringe player we don't want for a ruckman when we're in our window - probably, maybe, if there's, y'know, one who's available, hopefully he'll be ok - then that club would be negligent in the extreme.

FFS, there's only 20-25 odd ruckmen in the game at anyone time, compared to perhaps 150 midfielders. Then there's the whole interchange rule changes, which will shrink the numbers of good rucks even more significantly.

If I hear this stupid brain-dead not-thought-through phallacy one more time I'LL SPEW UP!!

 

[hank31]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

this perception that you can simply trade for an elite ruckmen when you are "in your window" annoys the ****ing shit out of me.

It's bullshit.

You CAN'T trade for an elite ruckman, it won't happen. The best you can hope for is to snap up a 2nd tier ruck who isn't getting a game. Mumford is the example most people would use, but how often are you going to actually snag a decent up-and-comer?

If it's so easy to do this, I'd like half a dozen examples of when it's succeeded.

The other half of the equation I'm sure *some* haven't thought about, is exactly what do you trade to get said ruckman? A bag of chips?

It's the most brain-dead, short-sighted moronic philosophy I can almost think of. If a club's policy was to forget about rucks, you can simply trade a fringe player we don't want for a ruckman when we're in our window - probably, maybe, if there's, y'know, one who's available, hopefully he'll be ok - then that club would be negligent in the extreme.

FFS, there's only 20-25 odd ruckmen in the game at anyone time, compared to perhaps 150 midfielders. Then there's the whole interchange rule changes, which will shrink the numbers of good rucks even more significantly.

If I hear this stupid brain-dead not-thought-through phallacy one more time I'LL SPEW UP!!

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!!

Love your work LU

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

What did Collingwood do? Traded for Darren Jolly. That is exactly what you do. Wait till you get into a window then trade in a A grade ruckman for a first rounder. That is what you do. In the meantime you try and stockpile your midfielders and come up with 4-5 guns. Sydney did the same with with Jason Ball.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Not an elite one. You need to draft these midfielders. The recruiters are there to pick the gems from the duds. Mind you our recruitment team decided to overlook Barlow for some reason.[/quote]


Because your such an expert....
According to a bumped thread on here, you would still have Hislop on the list... Nuff said.......

I am not paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to continually stuff up!

 

[eth-dog]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Why do we even waste energy on her? she's just a waste of our time and energy. We need ant back.

Smith at 8 looks good to me. the Youtube highlights of him are very good

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

What did Collingwood do? Traded for Darren Jolly. That is exactly what you do. Wait till you get into a window then trade in a A grade ruckman for a first rounder. That is what you do. In the meantime you try and stockpile your midfielders and come up with 4-5 guns. Sydney did the same with with Jason Ball.

Wow, one example. Darren Jolly wanted to come back to Melbourne. Are you telling me everytime a team gets into their window there's a homesick interstate top shelf ruck???

You goose. I'll tell you that was not what the Collingwood brainstrust used as a long-term plan. It was a very large stroke of luck he was available. Eddie and the crew did not sit down 5 years ago and decide not to draft a ruck because there was, like, a fair chance they might get one down the track.

So that's Jolly & Mumford (who was a gamble anyway). Please elaborate on how this stunning piece of long term planning has paid of for other teams

 

[Towno78]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

For the record. I am a member of the draft your own ruckman camp, particularly given you always pay so much more for a quality ruckman in tradeweek.

That said, there is certainly history of teams trading in rucks when they've been thereabouts to some success.
Collingwood - Darren Jolly - 2009
St Kilda - Steven King - 2007
St Kilda - Michael Gardiner - 2006
Geelong - Brad Ottens - 2004
and of course Essendon - John Barnes - 1999

Those 5 players played in a total of 8 GFs (only counted this year once) in the years just following their trade and I don't think you could consider any of them bit part players.

this perception that you can simply trade for an elite ruckmen when you are "in your window" annoys the ****ing shit out of me.

It's bullshit.

You CAN'T trade for an elite ruckman, it won't happen. The best you can hope for is to snap up a 2nd tier ruck who isn't getting a game. Mumford is the example most people would use, but how often are you going to actually snag a decent up-and-comer?

If it's so easy to do this, I'd like half a dozen examples of when it's succeeded.

The other half of the equation I'm sure *some* haven't thought about, is exactly what do you trade to get said ruckman? A bag of chips?

It's the most brain-dead, short-sighted moronic philosophy I can almost think of. If a club's policy was to forget about rucks, you can simply trade a fringe player we don't want for a ruckman when we're in our window - probably, maybe, if there's, y'know, one who's available, hopefully he'll be ok - then that club would be negligent in the extreme.

FFS, there's only 20-25 odd ruckmen in the game at anyone time, compared to perhaps 150 midfielders. Then there's the whole interchange rule changes, which will shrink the numbers of good rucks even more significantly.

If I hear this stupid brain-dead not-thought-through phallacy one more time I'LL SPEW UP!!

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Wow, one example. Darren Jolly wanted to come back to Melbourne. Are you telling me everytime a team gets into their window there's a homesick interstate top shelf ruck???

You goose. I'll tell you that was not what the Collingwood brainstrust used as a long-term plan. It was a very large stroke of luck he was available. Eddie and the crew did not sit down 5 years ago and decide not to draft a ruck because there was, like, a fair chance they might get one down the track.

So that's Jolly & Mumford (who was a gamble anyway). Please elaborate on how this stunning piece of long term planning has paid of for other teams

Jason Ball (Sydney) is another one as well. Fact is other teams now know that you don't have to pay massive odds to gain a ruckman in the 1st round. Collingwood traded in Jolly and Brown in recent years as muture aged ruckmen.

 

[Yoda_]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

this perception that you can simply trade for an elite ruckmen when you are "in your window" annoys the ****ing shit out of me.

It's bullshit.

You CAN'T trade for an elite ruckman, it won't happen. The best you can hope for is to snap up a 2nd tier ruck who isn't getting a game. Mumford is the example most people would use, but how often are you going to actually snag a decent up-and-comer?

If it's so easy to do this, I'd like half a dozen examples of when it's succeeded.

The other half of the equation I'm sure *some* haven't thought about, is exactly what do you trade to get said ruckman? A bag of chips?

It's the most brain-dead, short-sighted moronic philosophy I can almost think of. If a club's policy was to forget about rucks, you can simply trade a fringe player we don't want for a ruckman when we're in our window - probably, maybe, if there's, y'know, one who's available, hopefully he'll be ok - then that club would be negligent in the extreme.

FFS, there's only 20-25 odd ruckmen in the game at anyone time, compared to perhaps 150 midfielders. Then there's the whole interchange rule changes, which will shrink the numbers of good rucks even more significantly.

If I hear this stupid brain-dead not-thought-through phallacy one more time I'LL SPEW UP!!

Lance

I would just like to point out this little fact for you:

Year: Premiership Team - ruckmen

2010: Collingwood - Darren Jolly*/Leigh Brown*
2009: Geelong - Brad Ottens*/Mark Blake
2008: Hawthorn - Robert Campbell/Brent Renouf
2007: Geelong - Steven King/Brad Ottens*
2006: West Coast - Dean Cox/Mark Seaby
2005: Sydney - Darren Jolly*/Jason Ball*
2004: Port Adelaide - Dean Brogan*/Brendon Lade
2003: Brisbane - Clark Keating/Jamie Charman
2002: Brisbane - Clark Keating/Beau McDonald
2001: Brisbane - Clark Keating/Beau McDonald
2000: Essendon - John Barnes*/Steven Allessio

Now all of the players with an asterix next to there name were traded into the team, only the great Brisbane Lions of the early 2000's and the West Coast Eagles dynasty with Dean Cox at the forefront of one of the most powerful midfields assembled have there been a premiership team that has no traded in a ruckmen.

Whilst also adding to the fact that these players were traded in, let us also go over this little fact:

Darren Jolly - 2001 Rookie Draft (31)
Brad Ottens - 1997 National Draft (2)
Robert Campbell - 2000 Rookie Draft (27)
Steven King - 1995 Compensation Pick
Dean Cox - 1999 Rookie Draft (28)
Dean Brogan - 1999 Rookie Draft (26)
Clark Keating - Queensland Zone Selection
John Barnes - 1999 National Draft (59) delisted by Geelong

So I think that all the pointers are either saying develop an absolutely amazing midfield, or go and get the best ruckmen from the rookie draft this year and turn them into gold.

What would you like to do? Or are you, along with many other people still not going to resign to the fact that our midfield is far worse than what it is given credit for?

Take what you want for it, but I know which way I am going in terms of ruckmen..

 

[HighettBomber]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Beams is better than Zaharakis, he accumulates the ball better and uses it better.

I just don't feel with the exception of Watson we have an A Grade midfielder on our list. If we take Gorringe that will just about do it for me. I will hope we lose most games so we get a priority pick the following year. A midfielder will win more games than a ruckman. I hope Gold Coast take the tall bloke at 7.

I have to disagree with you re Zharakis vs Beams. When he has played onball Zaharakis has been every bit as good as Beams at accumulating, his kicking for goal is pretty average, but his field kicking is very good. He is also quicker and a far better mark than Beams, and much more dangerous as a forward.

I have a strong bias towards us taking a midfielder too, but Gorringe looks extremely good from the highlights, and we do have quite a talented crop of younger midfielders, if he is demonstably better than the midfielders available at out pick, i would not have a problem with us taking him.

 

[The Donners]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

How many draft picks inside the top 10 (ruckmen only) have played in premierships? Not a rhetorical question. I can only think of Michael Gardiner and Brad Ottens.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Lance

I would just like to point out this little fact for you:

Year: Premiership Team - ruckmen

2010: Collingwood - Darren Jolly*/Leigh Brown*
2009: Geelong - Brad Ottens*/Mark Blake
2008: Hawthorn - Robert Campbell/Brent Renouf
2007: Geelong - Steven King/Brad Ottens*
2006: West Coast - Dean Cox/Mark Seaby
2005: Sydney - Darren Jolly*/Jason Ball*
2004: Port Adelaide - Dean Brogan*/Brendon Lade
2003: Brisbane - Clark Keating/Jamie Charman
2002: Brisbane - Clark Keating/Beau McDonald
2001: Brisbane - Clark Keating/Beau McDonald
2000: Essendon - John Barnes*/Steven Allessio

Now all of the players with an asterix next to there name were traded into the team, only the great Brisbane Lions of the early 2000's and the West Coast Eagles dynasty with Dean Cox at the forefront of one of the most powerful midfields assembled have there been a premiership team that has no traded in a ruckmen.

Whilst also adding to the fact that these players were traded in, let us also go over this little fact:

Darren Jolly - 2001 Rookie Draft (31)
Brad Ottens - 1997 National Draft (2)
Robert Campbell - 2000 Rookie Draft (27)
Steven King - 1995 Compensation Pick
Dean Cox - 1999 Rookie Draft (28)
Dean Brogan - 1999 Rookie Draft (26)
Clark Keating - Queensland Zone Selection
John Barnes - 1999 National Draft (59) delisted by Geelong

So I think that all the pointers are either saying develop an absolutely amazing midfield, or go and get the best ruckmen from the rookie draft this year and turn them into gold.

so, 8 out of 22 ruckmen were traded in. Wow. How incredible.

Imagine if all businesses based their long term strategies on a 36% success rate... They'd be absolutely savaged by their shareholders, and rightfully so.

Now I appreciate you doing a little research, but pointing out 8 rucks that have turned out ok from low picks or rookie drafts is a little disingenuous, unless you can also illustrate how many low pick and rookie drafted ruckmen haven't succeeded...

I'm sure it's a lot more. A lot more.

What would you like to do? Or are you, along with many other people still not going to resign to the fact that our midfield is far worse than what it is given credit for?

Take what you want for it, but I know which way I am going in terms of ruckmen..

I want to take a midfielder with pick 8.

But I want the club to actively plan for the post-Hille future with a strategy a little more sophisticated than merely hoping and praying there may be a good enough ruckman available as our window opens, hopefully, whenever that might be, if we are lucky enough and cross our fingers

 

[Yoda_]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

so, 8 out of 22 ruckmen were traded in. Wow. How incredible.

Imagine if all businesses based their long term strategies on a 36% success rate... They'd be absolutely savaged by their shareholders, and rightfully so.

Now I appreciate you doing a little research, but pointing out 8 rucks that have turned out ok from low picks or rookie drafts is a little disingenuous, unless you can also illustrate how many low pick and rookie drafted ruckmen haven't succeeded...

I'm sure it's a lot more. A lot more.

Yeah, fair call.

I wasn't trying to get on my high horse or anything.. Merely pointing out the fact that alot of premiership ruckmen are in fact traded in, you see every year that a premiership team drafts in a mature aged player or trades in a mature aged player, more often than not it seems to be a ruckmen.

Let's look at the last 10 years then shall well? (note: there is always exceptions to the rule)

2010: Luke Ball, Darren Jolly
2009: Harry Taylor
2008: Stewart Dew
2007:
2006: Steven Armstrong
2005: Darren Jolly
2004: Josh Mahoney
2003: Blake Carracella,
2002:
2001: Mal Michael, Martin Pike
2000: John Barnes

These are all the premiership players that have been traded in or drafted in, the year before to help guide their team to victory the following year.

Notice that a few of them are either KPP or ruckmen?

Just saying

I want to take a midfielder with pick 8.

But I want the club to actively plan for the post-Hille future with a strategy a little more sophisticated than merely hoping and praying there may be a good enough ruckman available as our window opens, hopefully, whenever that might be, if we are lucky enough and cross our fingers

I also want to take a midfielder with pick 8, however after some close consideration, their will still be some decent midfield prospects at pick 30, whilst you could go the other way, I think that some decent ruck prospects may still be around come the rookie draft.

Lance, I think we are going to nab a ruckmen in this years draft, in fact I am almost certain of it. Just not sure wheter it will be in the rookie draft or the National draft.

 

[Kong]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Sydney didn't win in 2006, just for the record.

 

[Burzum]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

I hope we draft Gorringe just to piss people off tbh

 

[Kong]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

I'm actually torn.

Before reading about Gorringe, I 100% agreed with bombersno1.. Ermm, well not 100%, but I absolutely wanted the best pure midfielder.

I still do, but there's this niggling feeling in the back of my head that we might live to regret overlooking Gorringe (if we do).

 

[Burzum]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

I only saw one clip on youtube of him - yeah, I'm making my decision based off a youtube clip, u mad? - and the way he moves, works in the ruck and his clean hands make him an appealing prospect.

The only other one I saw that I thought could genuinely become a star (that we could potentially get) was Gaff, the others don't impress me much.

 

[Kong]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

I miss Ant

 

[Burzum]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

He posted on BBlitz who he would want, I'll post it in the batcave.

 

[lemon chicken]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Jason Ball (Sydney) is another one as well. Fact is other teams now know that you don't have to pay massive odds to gain a ruckman in the 1st round. Collingwood traded in Jolly and Brown in recent years as muture aged ruckmen.

They also traded in Cam Wood for a first rounder.

 

[yaco55]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

The fact is that the absolute gun ruckmen ( who are considered to be before drafting ) go in the top 5 draft selections.

So if Gorringe is a a GUN ruckman - he will be gone before Pick 8.

Most of the better ruckman have been late draft selections or in the rookie draft.

Rucks who have been drafted between pick 6 to 30

1990

22 - Simon Crawshay - 19 games

1991

20 - Brett Cook - Average player

1992

No ruckman selected

1993

No ruckman selected

1994

No ruckman selected

1995

23 - Jay Burton

1996

13 - Tom Gilligan - Not AFL standard
16 - Pat Steinfort - No AFL games
19 - Brent Tuckey - Not AFL standard


1997

21 - Clem Michael - good player but injury prone

1998

17 - Peter Street


1999

26 - Stephen Doyle - Delisted
27 - Cain Ackland - Delisted

2000

7 - Lawrence Angwin delisted
29 - Jamie Charman - solid player

2001

7 - David Hale - Average player
15 - Barry Brooks - Delisted
22 - Mark Seaby - Average player

2002

20 - Will Minson - Average player
26 - Tristan Cartledge - Delisted

2003

No ruckman selected

2004

8 - John Meesen - Yet to make his mark
16 - Cameron Wood - See previous

2005

7 - Patrick Ryder - Should be a good player
9 - Mitch Clark - Doubt that he was drafted as a ruckman but will include him.
19 - max Bailey - Injury plagued. Seems to have ability.

2006

17 - Shaun Hampson - Will be average at best.

So the message from these stats is that GUN ruckman are selected in the top 5 or as a later ND selection or in the Rookie Draft.

There is no way that we should select a ruckman with our no 8 draft pick in the 2010 ND.

Look at it another way - Gorringe will be gone at our pick if he is as good as claimed.

PS; This will keep Bombers No 1 happy.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

They also traded in Cam Wood for a first rounder.

Who had 2-3 pre-seasons under his belt. That is the whole point. Don't overpay for ruckmen until you are ready to win a flag!

 

[Kong]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Can't believe you forgot the pick of the lot, yacco.

Lazy!

 

[eth-dog]

Re: National Draft / Rookie Draft Strategy (No Trade Talk)

Can't believe you forgot the pick of the lot, yacco.

Lazy!

where was Hille taken?