Moved Thread Neutral fans: Hawkins or Riewoldt?

[Monocle]

Very little in it and to be honest you would be rapt to have either in your side.

Played slightly different roles but both magnificent players and both had wonderful careers in the game.

As football entertainers they will be missed however as opposition to others teams supporters, we will be glad to see the back of both on game day, both players that you worry about having a day out agonist your side.

Who’s better:

Tom=Jack
Jack=Tom

Six and two threes.

Both great.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Hawkins easily.

 

[smasha]

It's A Richmond player involved and we all know how BF works by now.

Been an amazing servant to the RFC.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Brown took a bit of time to finally get going. He was always regarded as the main player the mighty Lions had to build their ageing team around. It really wasn't until the Lions began to decline did he take his game to a whole new level. Unfortunately, as you eluded to, this is also the same period of time he started copping horrific injuries. Right in the middle of his 'prime' years. He was so courageous, so manic in his approach to attacking the football, he ultimately ended his career much sooner than what it should have.

Statistically speaking, Brown averaged 14½ disposals, 7 marks (2 contested), 2.3 goals per game. He also averaged same amount of direct goal assists per game as Jack Riewoldt.
At his peak, he was in the discussion of greatest CHF since Wayne Carey and certainly sat alongside Nick Riewoldt during that era.

Jonathan Brown also had an aura about him something of which Reiwoldt and Hawkins simply do not have. Very similar to Dustin Martin and Lance Franklin.

Brown’s peak 2 or 3 years were unbelievable. As good as Pav and N Riewoldt were, Brown’s best years were on another level and Carey-esque. In that period he also took some centre bounces as a ruck-rover and was a clearance monster. But like Kouta it was a short peak

 

[RichLeMonde]

Their output is remarkably similar. They both offer slightly different things.

If you swapped them, I don’t think Riewoldt could have done what Hawkins did in the ‘11 GF, monstering people and taking contested marks to create a crucial conduit towards goal, like a traditional CHF. So if they had Riewoldt, the Cats might have only won 2 flags.

However I’m not sure Hawkins could have done what Riewoldt did in ‘17, playing as the sole key forward, and needing the ability to run all day across the entire forward 50 to jump and create contests, so the mosquito fleet could lock in fwd pressure. So with Hawkins, Tiges might have only won 2.

So 2 equally great but different players.

 

[Catsace]

Looked at this after Hawkins kicked 5 last week, as I wasn't sure if KB had kicked 777 or 778...as it turns out it's the latter. So you have Jack with 342 games and 780 goals 471 behinds, and Tom with 344 games and 777 goals with 436 behinds.

They both were drafted in the same draft (2006), and have been ultra durable players in that span, now each playing their 17th season. Both have three Flags, and Jack has more Colemans of course. Fair to say Jack by dint of the Tigers being fairly ordinary for the first half a dozen years of his career was obliged to become the main focal point earlier, whereas Tom had initially Nablett, Mooney and then Pods be the main key forward. So Jack had his most prolific season in year 4, with 78 that year, whilst Tom's breakout in terms of goals was 2012 with 62.

But as a Cat fan, you really just about have to say these players are as even as you can get. I'm pretty sure if Jack was at Geelong he'd have been as good, and Tom, although a pure father-son, i'm sure would have produced at any club, although Geelong probably nurtured him in his early career mainly because they rarely lost a game in his first 5 seasons. But their output, influence on their sides, the three Flags....you have probably a definitive case of two actual peas in a pod, maybe a snow pea versus a sugar-snap perhaps, Tom being a bigger man physically and probably would outshine Jack in a ruck contest, but i think most neutral fans would take 100/100 either career for their club, especially if it also came with the rider of three Flags!

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Hawkins looking like passing jack shortly on total goals kicked, is only 3 behind now. Probably the only reasonable metric jack had Hawkins covered in until now.

 

[Lunchtime]

expand...

Attached are two screen shots of stats. First one is career stats for both Jack and Tom at the end of the 2023 season, when Jack retired, both were on 347 games each.

The second attachment is Tom's updated stats to reflect first two games so far this 2024 season.

In my opinion, neither is miles ahead of each other. Both wonderful players who have had great careers. I'm prepared to sit on the fence and say dead heat. Their stats are very very similar and it's like splitting hairs to say who is better.

 

[tiger_tough]

Attached are two screen shots of stats. First one is career stats for both Jack and Tom at the end of the 2023 season, when Jack retired, both were on 347 games each.

The second attachment is Tom's updated stats to reflect first two games so far this 2024 season.

In my opinion, neither is miles ahead of each other. Both wonderful players who have had great careers. I'm prepared to sit on the fence and say dead heat. Their stats are very very similar and it's like splitting hairs to say who is better.

Couldn't get a more even spread. Both legends.

 

[Bald]

Attached are two screen shots of stats. First one is career stats for both Jack and Tom at the end of the 2023 season, when Jack retired, both were on 347 games each.

The second attachment is Tom's updated stats to reflect first two games so far this 2024 season.

In my opinion, neither is miles ahead of each other. Both wonderful players who have had great careers. I'm prepared to sit on the fence and say dead heat. Their stats are very very similar and it's like splitting hairs to say who is better.

I don't think either is miles ahead either, it was always close for me and for a significant period of time I had Jack ahead, but it's probably how well Hawkins has played even in this latter stage of his career that makes me have him ahead - which I respect is possibly a bit of recency bias.

 

[Lunchtime]

I don't think either is miles ahead either, it was always close for me and for a significant period of time I had Jack ahead, but it's probably how well Hawkins has played even in this latter stage of his career that makes me have him ahead - which I respect is possibly a bit of recency bias.

I think recency bias is part of it yes, which is why a lot of people are saying Hawkins is better. Deadheat for me in my opinion, they can not be split. Have to judge them on their whole careers. If we are talking Coleman's as an example, Jack had won two of them in Hawkins 6th season in the AFL (also Jack's 6th season too). When Hawkins won his first (and only, so far) Coleman in 2020, Jack had won his third Coleman two years prior in 2018. It's hard enough to win one Coleman medal, which Hawkins has achieved, players like Matthew Richardson, Barry Hall, Matthew Pavlich (to name a few) all couldn't win one Coleman, it's even more harder to win multiple Coleman medals, Jack won three of them - only 14 players in the history of the VFL/AFL have won 3 or more Coleman medals, it's a small list.

By the way, I know a lot of people knocked Tom Hawkins for winning the Coleman medal in 2020, which was during the COVID pandemic and was a shortened season. My response has always been that regardless of the environment or circumstances, Tom was good enough to win the Coleman, he kicked the most goals during the Home and Away rounds and that's that, he deserved it.

Anyway, I reckon Jack and Tom: outstanding blokes, outstanding players, great for the game and I can't split them because their career stats are very similar.

 

[GastevsBeard]

Very similar statistical profiles, but some differences

Jack was better early-mid career, Tom better late career

Tom probably more consistent week to week (never kicked 10, but when does he not hit the scoreboard?), Jack more prone to quiet & big weeks (some huge 10+ bags)

Jack historically better in the air, Tom better 1:1 in a wrestle

Although Tom is king of the GA, Jack was no slouch either

You could also point to both players having some big performances in big games (Hawkins 2011, Jack 2019)

Tough to split

 

[Lunchtime]

Very similar statistical profiles, but some differences

Jack was better early-mid career, Tom better late career

Tom probably more consistent week to week (never kicked 10, but when does he not hit the scoreboard?), Jack more prone to quiet & big weeks (some huge 10+ bags)

Jack historically better in the air, Tom better 1:1 in a wrestle

Although Tom is king of the GA, Jack was no slouch either

You could also point to both players having some big performances in big games (Hawkins 2011, Jack 2019)

Tough to split

Not that it matters much but Tom has had more goalless games (50) than Jack did (41).

 

[Tandy]

I'd be happy with either. The way Hawkins is moving though he could keep going. Compared to the way Tex was getting around last weekend. But if Hawkins did keep going I'd hate for him to finish so close to 400 games and 900 goals that he'd need more. So if this is his last that'll wrap his career up nicely 365 ish games and over 800 goals.

 

[GastevsBeard]

Not that it matters much but Tom has had more goalless games (50) than Jack did (41).

interesting ... tomahawk is the king of the 3-5 goal game it seems

 

[Lunchtime]

interesting ... tomahawk is the king of the 3-5 goal game it seems

3+ Goals

Riewoldt: 132 times (347 games)
Hawkins: 142 times (349 games)