Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XIV

[sameolds33]

All of those clubs became top 4 before the free agents joined.

Isn't the point how ladder movement takes place now for middle ranking clubs if the top clubs continue to top-up with the league's best players? Not about how the clubs got to the top but how they stay there.

 

[boncer34]

Isn't the point how ladder movement takes place now for middle ranking clubs if the top clubs continue to top-up with the league's best players? Not about how the clubs got to the top but how they stay there.

Remember when Sydney were going to become a super team that never dropped after Buddy joined?

How Brisbane were screwed after the go home 5 because nobody would ever join?

Swings and round abouts. It may take slightly longer due to free agency but the wheel keeps turning.

 

[owen87]

Swings and round abouts. It may take slightly longer due to free agency but the wheel keeps turning.

Wasn't the point of FA to speed it up?

Bottom sides would be able to pluck a star and fly back up the ladder.

I think it was based on the NBA style movement, where you'd see a club go and buy a star player (or two) and completely transform. Neglecting that 1 player in NBA represents 20% of the group on-court, whilst in the AFL you need about 4 players for the same.

If you look at the draft this year, it's incredibly compromised, a number of the guys tied to NGA's were always going to play AFL and should really never have been tied to clubs.

 

[Saint]

We got recruited players like DS and Shiel and Saad because we had a positive story to offer. It doesn't matter if you're 8th or 18th. If you've got a good positive message you can attract players. It's where North suffered for a few years, always looking like declining and desperate.

This has been a factor for long before Free Agency and even the draft.

We look unattractive at the moment, but a couple of good draftees, good coach and game plan and it looks much more positive. Even GC will be selling a good message at the moment with Rowell to return, King, Anderson and some good early-season results. Get the ship pointed in the right direction and you'll be able to attract players, not just at the pointy end of the ladder.

 

[Lore]

Wasn't the point of FA to speed it up?

Bottom sides would be able to pluck a star and fly back up the ladder.

I think it was based on the NBA style movement, where you'd see a club go and buy a star player (or two) and completely transform. Neglecting that 1 player in NBA represents 20% of the group on-court, whilst in the AFL you need about 4 players for the same.

If you look at the draft this year, it's incredibly compromised, a number of the guys tied to NGA's were always going to play AFL and should really never have been tied to clubs.

Yep the crux of it is that in any given year the difference between the top and the bottom of the ladder is now wider than before.

Good players going to good clubs while they lose nothing in the way of draft picks means they can become mini-GWSs stacked with pointy end talent that they can’t afford so it starts getting on-traded after 3-4 years in the system for even more picks. Just because they can also become a Gold Coast doesn’t really make it okay. Geelong are the main ones going with this, though Richmond looks like they’re next and WC isn’t far off it either.

Clubs in the middle that look like they might go to the next level typically pick up the ones falling out of the top clubs looking for opportunity (that can’t get a spot at another top club). That’s your St Kilda type job, or us 2 years ago.

Meanwhile clubs in the cellar that draft well then lose their players for no more than minimum value have to make up a much bigger gap to the top of the ladder after having their pockets picked. In that situation a couple of big consecutive drafts and tailoring everything around that group seems to be the way out, but you need older heads and a good coach to get the culture right or it implodes and you start over. Think Brisbane or Carlton.

Then you get this pre-agent thing where they’re all leaving earlier just so you get your value trade wise because they’ll definitely leave. For bigger players that don’t mature physically until about 22 (and grow into their game even later) you only get a couple of good years to convince them all.

You also have the accident of history that made a dent in things as well, slowing the wheel further for a period of time, and we have the fall out of our saga as well. So it’s not the only factor but the combination makes for some ugly desperate football.

I would argue that having the wheel turn more slowly actually excacerbates it as the players at bottom clubs don’t believe they will achieve success at that club during the next 3-4 years of their careers.

 

[Lore]

Mike Sheahan and Terry Wallace retiring. Media landscape is contracting at an alarming rate :/

 

[owen87]

Mike Sheahan and Terry Wallace retiring. Media landscape is contracting at an alarming rate :/

It was already way too big, problem is, many of the younger 'journalists' are very, very s**t.

Scoop Maclure. Browne.

They're not really journalists, they're clickbait opinion writers.

 

[eth-dog]

Mike Sheahan and Terry Wallace retiring. Media landscape is contracting at an alarming rate :/

I see no loss in those two retiring.

 

[Saint]

Mike Sheahan and Terry Wallace retiring. Media landscape is contracting at an alarming rate :/

They're well past retirement age and probably on half what they would have been on 10 years ago when Print media was still worth something.

Why continue working into old age for less money? They've probably both enough money and better things to do with their time. You have to be pretty heavily engaged to be a decent football journalist.

 

[11kgm]

I see no loss in those two retiring.

Especially list expert Wallace

 

[Kakkle]

Weird to say, but I'll miss Terry more than Mike (I mean really I'm not going to miss either), Terry's gotten better with age, seems like a bloke with good bit curiosity in the world, and actually does stuff in his spare time like watch Netflix and owns a gastro pub in the West.


Mike Sheehan? He does a podcast with Sam Newman and Don Scott.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

I see no loss in those two retiring.

I like them both more than many media people remaining.

 

[eth-dog]

I like them both more than many media people remaining.

I think Wallace is a ******* who's opinions are worth around the same level as "Scoop" or Tom Browne. Mike Sheahan has never been a favourite of mine, and he's fallen off a cliff over the past few years

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

I think Wallace is a ******* who's opinions are worth around the same level as "Scoop" or Tom Browne. Mike Sheahan has never been a favourite of mine, and he's fallen off a cliff over the past few years

Wallace watches a lot of footy at all levels to base his opinions on which is more than I could say for a lot of media "experts". He was also an excellent player and fairly smart coach. I don't always agree with his opinions but often the subjects are....subjective, so nothing wrong with that. He's not sensationalist but calls things as he sees them.

Mike, even after falling off a cliff is still better than most still there.

 

[Lore]

It was already way too big, problem is, many of the younger 'journalists' are very, very sh*t.

Scoop Maclure. Browne.

They're not really journalists, they're clickbait opinion writers.

That's the problem. There are younger journos that are good and still have 20-40 years left in their careers, but they've lost their jobs because people click once on a good article and ten times on clickbait. And you can produce a lot more clickbait a lot more quickly than one good article, because all you have to do is make s**t up or plagiarise it from a random radio conversation or twitter account.

De Stoop has landed on his feet, Executive Producer at SEN after Fox let him go earlier this year. Neroli Meadows is podcasting now. Michael Whiting is still employed but has a Patreon. Ben Guthrie is doing things for the AFLPA. Marc McGowan, Dinny Navaratnam, Jen Phelan, Ben Collins, Travis King, Lee Gaskin have all disappeared. And that's just the ones I can think of and find twitter accounts for.

 

[owen87]

That's the problem. There are younger journos that are good and still have 20-40 years left in their careers, but they've lost their jobs because people click once on a good article and ten times on clickbait. And you can produce a lot more clickbait a lot more quickly than one good article, because all you have to do is make sh*t up or plagiarise it from a random radio conversation or twitter account.

De Stoop has landed on his feet, Executive Producer at SEN after Fox let him go earlier this year. Neroli Meadows is podcasting now. Michael Whiting is still employed but has a Patreon. Ben Guthrie is doing things for the AFLPA. Marc McGowan, Dinny Navaratnam, Jen Phelan, Ben Collins, Travis King, Lee Gaskin have all disappeared. And that's just the ones I can think of and find twitter accounts for.

Unfortunately we live in an era when quality journalists aren't as profitable as the first to post gossip and rumour types.

The AFL media is a bit of a disaster, we rarely see meaningful analysis of anything, it's all the "Dodoro is hard to deal with!" type gossip and opinion now, which people rush to click and comment on, then wonder why the state of coverage is so superficial.

You get better analysis from many BigFooty threads and posters than you do from a lot of the so called 'media' types.

 

[Lore]

You get better analysis from many BigFooty threads and posters than you do from a lot of the so called 'media' types.

And here we all are...

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Didn’t Mike Sheahan retire years ago, didn’t think he did much other than Open Mike. No loss as eth said

 

[boncer34]

Wasn't the point of FA to speed it up?

Bottom sides would be able to pluck a star and fly back up the ladder.

I think it was based on the NBA style movement, where you'd see a club go and buy a star player (or two) and completely transform. Neglecting that 1 player in NBA represents 20% of the group on-court, whilst in the AFL you need about 4 players for the same.

If you look at the draft this year, it's incredibly compromised, a number of the guys tied to NGA's were always going to play AFL and should really never have been tied to clubs.

Only if you believe in leprechauns as well. One player doesn't lift a side.

Which the rest of your post does confirm.

 

[owen87]

Only if you believe in leprechauns as well. One player doesn't lift a side.

Which the rest of your post does confirm.

We're kind of saying the same thing here; the AFL told us FA was about helping the bottom sides get talented players across to help them improve. In reality it's the bottom sides losing talented guys for nothing other than cap space, which in AFL terms, has no real value. Whilst top sides shed ok-but-not-great guys looking for a pay day to bottom sides.

If anything it's increased inequality, not decreased it. Players willing to sign-on at successful clubs for less than market value as a trade-off for success, means that the system doesn't work.

If there was say a fixed number of pay bands, where clubs were forced to pay x number of players y amounts, such that each club can't manage their salary cap in the above way, then maybe it would achieve what the AFL said it was meant to achieve.

 

[boncer34]

Yep the crux of it is that in any given year the difference between the top and the bottom of the ladder is now wider than before.

Duh. There's 16 spots now as opposed to 14.

Hilarious jokes aside though is it really?

People forget the "Bad news" Bears and the Swans that didn't win a game for however many years. Carlton and Melbourne who were ******* terrible. The "Shockers" etc.

2020 saw Adelaide win 3 games with a percentage of 64.4%, 11 wins and 72% behind Port. I like 5 as a number so let's compare.

2015 had Carlton with 4 wins and 64.8%, 13 and 53% behind Freo.

2010 had West Coast with 4 wins and 77%, 13 and 64% behind Collingwood.

2005 had Carlton with 4 wins and 77%, 13 and 59% behind Adelaide.

2000 had St Kilda with 2 wins and 70%, 18 wins and 89% behind Essendon

1995 had Fitzroy

1990 had the Bears with 4 wins and 71%, 13 and 68% behind Essendon.

Are Adelaide that much further behind than any of them? They're actually pretty close.

Even if we look at 2019 where Gold Coast were 13 wins and 75% behind Geelong.

Gap appears to be the same for mine.

 

[boncer34]

We're kind of saying the same thing here; the AFL told us FA was about helping the bottom sides get talented players across to help them improve. In reality it's the bottom sides losing talented guys for nothing other than cap space, which in AFL terms, has no real value. Whilst top sides shed ok-but-not-great guys looking for a pay day to bottom sides.

If anything it's increased inequality, not decreased it. Players willing to sign-on at successful clubs for less than market value as a trade-off for success, means that the system doesn't work.

If there was say a fixed number of pay bands, where clubs were forced to pay x number of players y amounts, such that each club can't manage their salary cap in the above way, then maybe it would achieve what the AFL said it was meant to achieve.

We are mate.

 

[andleanback]

I think Wallace is a ******* who's opinions are worth around the same level as "Scoop" or Tom Browne. Mike Sheahan has never been a favourite of mine, and he's fallen off a cliff over the past few years

Terry has some the best formed opinions in the football media, doesn’t just use guess work. Also watches a lot of under age football so he knows the kids coming into the league.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Terry has some the best formed opinions in the football media, doesn’t just use guess work. Also watches a lot of under age football so he knows the kids coming into the league.

He actually used to watch every AFL game which a lot or professional commentators don’t do. How many do hear say ‘I didn’t watch the game’. Well if you’re a pro football watcher maybe you should

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Giants losing Cameron, Corr and Williams, still plenty of talent there but you think things will get a lot worse there as they slide down the ladder.