Religion Our Universe, Fine-Tuned for Life--Accident or Design?

[yebiga]

You don't think small do you?

First you completely and convincingly overturn 700 years of common law history by totally reversing the burden of proof.

And now you fundamentally reverse 2500 years of development in logic by totally reversing the burden of proof there, as well.

That's one in the eye for you Aristotle.

Mind you, one wonders why, if you are so convinced of your claims about jehovah, you are so resistant to even trying to prove them.

Perhaps you need to ask the rev for bigger pamphlets.

All I'm saying is it's good enough to eat for Jehovah

 

[JackOutback]

And yet life still flourishes in droves nonetheless....It's almost as if the earth is a living entity all of it's own....If the planets were not placed precisely in their alignment, then there'd be no life on earth....I'm not entirely sure how much more fine-tuned our solar system needs to be, to enable that kind of an accidental occurrence.....Not to mention the earth's mantle, it's electro-magnetic field & Van Allen belts....All crucial to the existence & maintenance of life here on earth.....But no, no.....It's all just an accidental coincidence I tell you.

Infinite monkeys, infinite typewriters.

 

[RupieDupie]

So my point remains: The person who claims Jehovah is not eternal has the burden of proving it. The person doing the denying bears the burden of proof. This can be compared to a person accused of a crime who denies committing the crime. But his or her denial is not going to get him/her released from jail. He or she must produce evidence to prove his or her innocence.

NeutralZone

But you have stated an affirmation, "Jehovah is not eternal", which means you have inherited the burden of proof. I personally have never claimed that Jehovah is not eternal, only that Jehovah (as presented in The Bible - talking snakes, pi = 3, women turning into salt, people communicating with burning bushes, all of humanity descended from a family who rode on a boat ~4,000 years ago) does not exist.

 

[skilts]

Human existence, the only existence of which we have any inkling, is a finely-tuned accident, in some cases. In other cases, those who find all of life's answers in one or two books have forgotten the fine tuning bit, which actually requires their active involvement, rather than mindless acceptance of disabling, humanity-denying dogma.

 

[chelseacarlton]

Illinois Nazi:

The evidence says there are thousands of innocent people in jail.

USA:
"Death sentences are uniquely well-documented. We don’t know nearly enough about other kinds of criminal cases to estimate the rate of wrongful convictions for those. The rate could be lower than for capital murders, or it could be higher. Of course, in a country with millions of criminal convictions a year and more than 2 million people behind bars, even 1 percent amounts to tens of thousands of tragic errors."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...eddc056ad8a_story.html?utm_term=.0293024ec921​

Now, if there are thousands of innocents locked behind bars in the USA, where people are given free lawyers if they can't afford one, what do you suppose is happening in Australia where there is no offering of free legal counsel?

AUSTRALIA:
"It has also been pointed out that in the United States, every person has a legal right to a lawyer, whereas in Australia there are many who are forced to represent themselves because they are not eligible for legal aid but cannot afford a private lawyer.

Those factors suggest that the rate of wrongful convictions in Australia may be high, and that many of those convicted and sent to prison are in fact innocent."
https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.c...likely-to-be-overturned-than-other-countries/​

So my point remains: The person who claims Jehovah is not eternal has the burden of proving it. The person doing the denying bears the burden of proof. This can be compared to a person accused of a crime who denies committing the crime. But his or her denial is not going to get him/her released from jail. He or she must produce evidence to prove his or her innocence.

NeutralZone

First you need to provide evidence of Jehovah,then the eternal question can be raised,the burden of proof still remains with you,as you made the original claim.

 

[yebiga]

You're ignoring the point. A world finely tuned for life would not be one rife with disease, one that is filled with natural disasters and one that can be completely undone by the slightest variations to planetary conditions. If the earth were designed, it's clear it's a flawed design, despite the points you've raised. How else can you explain all the problems?

Even the disease is a life form.
I think your looking at it myopically from a human perspective. The universe can be geared for life warts and all.

Given the size of the Universe I suspect we will find life of various unimaginable forms are very prevalent.

 

[NeutralZone]

But you have stated an affirmation, "Jehovah is not eternal", which means you have inherited the burden of proof. I personally have never claimed that Jehovah is not eternal, only that Jehovah (as presented in The Bible - talking snakes, pi = 3, women turning into salt, people communicating with burning bushes, all of humanity descended from a family who rode on a boat ~4,000 years ago) does not exist.

RupieDupie:
Wrong. I stated that Jehovah is eternal and even quoted scripture to support it.

Psalms 90:2
“Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”

FredLeDeux and Pessimistic showed up, suggesting otherwise.

You are the one making the assertions that
- Jehovah exists, and
- that he/she/it is eternal.

It is up to you to prove them, not to others to disprove them.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-5#post-51388155

If god is eternal
If universe cosmos is eternal
Why can't living cells be eternal

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-6#post-51503385


I suggest the three of you can get together and try to come up a method of proving that Jehovah has not always existed.

NeutralZone

 

[FredLeDeux]

I suggest the three of you can get together and try to come up a method of proving that Jehovah has not always existed.

I don't think so, Jim.

I have a better suggestion.

Don't post about things of which you are obviously completely and profoundly ignorant, including (but probably not limited to) law, logic, cosmology, evolution, science generally, biblical studies and interpretation, theology and mainstream christianity.

 

[NeutralZone]

You don't think small do you?

First you completely and convincingly overturn 700 years of common law history by totally reversing the burden of proof.

And now you fundamentally reverse 2500 years of development in logic by totally reversing the burden of proof there, as well.

That's one in the eye for you Aristotle.

Mind you, one wonders why, if you are so convinced of your claims about jehovah, you are so resistant to even trying to prove them.

Perhaps you need to ask the rev for bigger pamphlets.

FredLeDeux:

The evidence speaks for itself, namely, the thousands of innocent people locked behind bars because of judicial systems that claim "innocent until proven guilty," while, in practice, that proves not to be the case all too often. As a reminder, notice below.

USA:
"Death sentences are uniquely well-documented. We don’t know nearly enough about other kinds of criminal cases to estimate the rate of wrongful convictions for those. The rate could be lower than for capital murders, or it could be higher. Of course, in a country with millions of criminal convictions a year and more than 2 million people behind bars, even 1 percent amounts to tens of thousands of tragic errors."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...eddc056ad8a_story.html?utm_term=.0293024ec921​

Now, if there are thousands of innocents locked behind bars in the USA, where people are given free lawyers if they can't afford one, what do you suppose is happening in Australia where there is no offering of free legal counsel?

AUSTRALIA:
"It has also been pointed out that in the United States, every person has a legal right to a lawyer, whereas in Australia there are many who are forced to represent themselves because they are not eligible for legal aid but cannot afford a private lawyer.

Those factors suggest that the rate of wrongful convictions in Australia may be high, and that many of those convicted and sent to prison are in fact innocent."
https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.c...likely-to-be-overturned-than-other-countries/​

NeutralZone

 

[NeutralZone]

I don't think so, Jim.

I have a better suggestion.

Don't post about things of which you are obviously completely and profoundly ignorant, including (but probably not limited to) law, logic, cosmology, evolution, science generally, biblical studies and interpretation, theology and mainstream christianity.

RupieDupie:
Wrong. I stated that Jehovah is eternal and even quoted scripture to support it.

Psalms 90:2
“Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”

FredLeDeux and Pessimistic showed up, suggesting otherwise.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-5#post-51388155



https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-6#post-51503385


I suggest the three of you can get together and try to come up a method of proving that Jehovah has not always existed.

NeutralZone

FredLeDeux:

Translation: You have no means of proving that Jehovah is not eternal, so you have resorted to schoolyard insults. Furthermore, you and none of the atheists can present a credible explanation for why our universe is fine-tuned for life since, clearly, it could not have happened by itself.

Precision could never repeatedly happen by accident. I know that, you known that, and everybody reading this thread knows that.

NeutralZone

 

[RupieDupie]

RupieDupie:
Wrong. I stated that Jehovah is eternal and even quoted scripture to support it.

Psalms 90:2
“Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”

FredLeDeux and Pessimistic showed up, suggesting otherwise.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-5#post-51388155



https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-6#post-51503385


I suggest the three of you can get together and try to come up a method of proving that Jehovah has not always existed.

NeutralZone

I don't see what you are stating that is different to my post, I stated that the burden of proof for "Jehovah is eternal" lies with you and you come back with a statement "I stated that Jehovah is eternal and even quoted scripture to support it" meaning you do indeed and have inherited the burden of proof. What's the issue here?

If you are claiming you do not have the burden of proof you would have said, "But RupieDupie, you have to prove that Jehovah is not eternal", to which I would reply, "I personally have never claimed that Jehovah is not eternal, only that Jehovah (as presented in The Bible - talking snakes, pi = 3, women turning into salt, people communicating with burning bushes, all of humanity descended from a family who rode on a boat ~4,000 years ago) does not exist"

 

[FredLeDeux]

Precision could never repeatedly happen by accident. I know that, you known that, and everybody reading this thread knows that.

NeutralZone

Shall we take a poll?

 

[Admiral Byng]

RupieDupie:
Wrong. I stated that Jehovah is eternal and even quoted scripture to support it.

Psalms 90:2
“Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”

FredLeDeux and Pessimistic showed up, suggesting otherwise.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-5#post-51388155



https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-6#post-51503385


I suggest the three of you can get together and try to come up a method of proving that Jehovah has not always existed.

NeutralZone

Quoting scripture does not count as proof.

 

[yebiga]

FredLeDeux:

Translation: You have no means of proving that Jehovah is not eternal, so you have resorted to schoolyard insults. Furthermore, you and none of the atheists can present a credible explanation for why our universe is fine-tuned for life since, clearly, it could not have happened by itself.

Precision could never repeatedly happen by accident. I know that, you known that, and everybody reading this thread knows that.

NeutralZone

Your using a clever variation of Chewbacca defense.

Ladies and gentleman of this supposed jury. We know there are innocent people in prison. So clearly those people couldn't prove they were innocent.

Does that make sense?
No it doesn't

So if these prisoners couldn't prove they were innocent, how can Jehovah prove he doesn't exist.

He can't

So clearly Jehovah must exist

Otherwise it makes no sense

You must acquit.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Jehovah is clearly making a strong come-back in this thread....."Let those without sin cast the first stone".

 

[Procrastinator35]

 

[darth_timon]

RupieDupie:
Wrong. I stated that Jehovah is eternal and even quoted scripture to support it.

Psalms 90:2
“Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”

FredLeDeux and Pessimistic showed up, suggesting otherwise.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-5#post-51388155



https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-6#post-51503385


I suggest the three of you can get together and try to come up a method of proving that Jehovah has not always existed.

NeutralZone

Quoting the Bible in this instance is a form of self-referencing. It's circular reasoning.

'God exists because he says so in the Bible'.

 

[chelseacarlton]

Even the disease is a life form.
I think your looking at it myopically from a human perspective. The universe can be geared for life warts and all.

Given the size of the Universe I suspect we will find life of various unimaginable forms are very prevalent.

Pretty much defies any environment and survives!

 

[Pie eyed]

I've read the god delusion and found it rather dull,or rather,myopically unnecessary in many ways.
I'm a skeptic by nature and by nurture as I've attested here many times.
Of course I was meditating correctly,I just found it not as useful as being actively and physically creative.ie music art etc.
I played music and when jamming with friends,when something magical occurred,we called it being in the "zone",much like when an athlete performs something almost unfathomable to everyone else with the same abilities.
Of course almost all of us have the innate ability to perform something quite significant and seemingly impossible,if we let go of the ego etc.
None of what you have said do I doubt impossible.
I have seen the Dalai Lama twice speak live in person,he was somewhat impressive,no doubt!
As far as Dawkins Dennett Harris etal go,I don't think they question the plausibility or possibility of alternate forms of reality's,particularly Harris and Dennett,given their expertise in their chosen fields.
Like most,all they question is the forces and wanton power and control over the masses by the "so-called" religious leaders and their motivations!

I find it hard to believe you read it.

What would make you if you already predetermined your own belief?

 

[Pie eyed]

Quoting the Bible in this instance is a form of self-referencing. It's circular reasoning.

'God exists because he says so in the Bible'.

The guy who wrote the bulk of the Bible was named Eric.

 

[chelseacarlton]

I find it hard to believe you read it.

What would make you if you already predetermined your own belief?

What?
Some grammar would be nice,coming from you,yes?

 

[Pessimistic]

RupieDupie:
Wrong. I stated that Jehovah is eternal and even quoted scripture to support it.

Psalms 90:2
“Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”

FredLeDeux and Pessimistic showed up, suggesting otherwise.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-5#post-51388155



https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...cident-or-design.1170044/page-6#post-51503385


I suggest the three of you can get together and try to come up a method of proving that Jehovah has not always existed.

NeutralZone

God botherer demanding roof

 

[Mningasimisonda]

The routine of atheists is to insist--without thinking it through--that there is no evidence that Jehovah exists, while they have no intelligent explanation for our fine-tuned universe.

Thinking persons equate precision and fine-tuning as proof that an intelligent creator guided the outcome. For instance, a mere stick of crayon is evidence that an intelligent creator (a human) intervened by gathering the correct ingredients and then blending them together in the correct percentages.

At the opposite extreme, accidental or spontaneous events never result in fine-tuning or precision. A computer requires all of its various parts to first be fabricated, in a precise manner, and then the various parts must then be connected together in a precise or fine-tuned manner in order for the computer to function properly. This requires well-trained technicians and designers.

Now, compare the most powerful computer--which pales in comparison to the human brain and to our fine-tuned universe.

If a mere stick of crayon required an intelligent designer (in this case, a human), and if the computer required trained technicians (humans again), how is it that our far superior brain and the universe itself are supposedly the result of chance events?


NeutralZone

Intelligent design is stupid. It is a theory made up to try to justify another theory, and there are no facts to support either theory.

"My world seems intuitive to me. Therefore, the universe follows the same rules." is not logical either. It's a huge assumption with zero facts to support it.

On the randomness never creating order, read a bit about statistical mechanics. Randomness at a small scale with some limitations that bound it creates much of the order that surrounds you.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Intelligent design is stupid. It is a theory made up to try to justify another theory, and there are no facts to support either theory.

"My world seems intuitive to me. Therefore, the universe follows the same rules." is not logical either. It's a huge assumption with zero facts to support it.

On the randomness never creating order, read a bit about statistical mechanics. Randomness at a small scale with some limitations that bound it creates much of the order that surrounds you.

I'm not sure that you recognize how you have utterly contradicted yourself here.....Those petty, insignificant limitations you speak of, are what both bound & enact an order into the chaos....Almost as if, they were set there for a reason.

Hint: You can't use a tool of intelligent design (Man's cognitive, reasoning mind) to disprove the phenomenon itself in nature.....You kind of cut your own feet off at the base, so to speak, in both a metaphorical & ontological way.....Though I feel sure that those with an ounce of nous will comprehend the absurdity involved in your argument.

 

[FredLeDeux]

I'm not sure that you recognize how you have utterly contradicted yourself here.....Those petty, insignificant limitations you speak of, are what both bound & enact an order into the chaos....Almost as if, they were set there for a reason.

Hint: You can't use a tool of intelligent design (Man's cognitive, reasoning mind) to disprove the phenomenon itself in nature.....You kind of cut your own feet off at the base, so to speak, in both a metaphorical & ontological way.....Though I feel sure that those with an ounce of nous will comprehend the absurdity involved in your argument.

Nothing like a bit of urine-extraction first thing in the morning, to set one up for the day.