List Mgmt. Part 3- And on it goes: The trade and draft megathread

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Barney44 said:
Not being pedantic. Just pointing out it is a go to excuse used for years and years. The Travis Gaspar, Andrew McDougall strategy.

Just like great defensive pressure is used as a positive because it is largely an opinion based comment that can't be measured.
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Off the top of my head from his u18 year til now he's suffered a broken leg, turf toe and a broken ankle, all impact injuries. He literally turned 20 last month, instead of sitting there making negative comments and trying to pigeon hole him 5 minutes into his career why don't you just be quiet and let him develop a while longer before making any more rash assumptions.
 
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Fun fact: Yeo didn't register a 30 disposals until his 90th game, in his sixth season. His two seasons after that, he won the B&F.

Sheppard was well and truly written off by many on here, and in 2015, his sixth season, lit it up as an undersized third tall, ultimately winning player of the finals

Gov was eating pies full time until he decided to pull his finger out and give AFL a red-hot crack in his fourth season on the list, basically winning us a game off his own boot in his third match, and has never looked back

All are easily in our top 10 players now.

Absolutely, for some players, pre-AFL and early-AFL form has a huge bearing and indication on their ability and future career. And for some, it means absolutely f**k all. Venables, imo, is the latter, and is in very good company.
 

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AndysAngels said:
Fun fact: Yeo didn't register a 30 disposals until his 90th game, in his sixth season. His two seasons after that, he won the B&F.

Sheppard was well and truly written off by many on here, and in 2015, his sixth season, lit it up as an undersized third tall, ultimately winning player of the finals

Gov was eating pies full time until he decided to pull his finger out and give AFL a red-hot crack in his fourth season on the list, basically winning us a game off his own boot in his third match, and has never looked back

All are easily in our top 10 players now.

Absolutely, for some players, pre-AFL and early-AFL form has a huge bearing and indication on their ability and future career. And for some, it means absolutely f**k all. Venables, imo, is the latter, and is in very good company.
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The interesting point is the Yeo's and Fyfe's of this world are the exceptions, not the rule. I'm saying that he desperately needs to improve his production and that it's not just because he's developing into an AFL role. The fact is Venners hasn't been able to find the ball well ever, at any level.

Also losing large amounts of time to injury can very, very negatively affect the development of players and in particular their game sense, ability to read the play and find the ball. A young guy missing most of the 3 years leading up to this season is not a positive, it's a negative and why a guy like venables who has very similar athletic abilities to Taranto was taken with our first rounder rather than Taranto who managed to put it all together in the back end of his senior colts season and be drafted at pick 2.

Nobody is writing venables off or saying he is s**t or is only going to be s**t. But everyone saying oh he's definitely a midfielder he has these traits and can do this etc. etc. needs to pull their head in and realise that unless he greatly improves his production he 100% isn't going to be a midfielder. I also actually find him getting great tackle numbers but low amounts of the ball a negative as well. It means that in a lot of cases he's in a position to compete but has failed to be the ball winner.
 
Daniel is a WCE premiership player. He lit up Melbourne in a preliminary final as a forward and is 20. Does it really matter if he turns into a midfielder?

Or is this just a primer for next years draft that we need to get more midfielders?
 
WCE_phil said:
The interesting point is the Yeo's and Fyfe's of this world are the exceptions, not the rule. I'm saying that he desperately needs to improve his production and that it's not just because he's developing into an AFL role. The fact is Venners hasn't been able to find the ball well ever, at any level.

Also losing large amounts of time to injury can very, very negatively affect the development of players and in particular their game sense, ability to read the play and find the ball. A young guy missing most of the 3 years leading up to this season is not a positive, it's a negative and why a guy like venables who has very similar athletic abilities to Taranto was taken with our first rounder rather than Taranto who managed to put it all together in the back end of his senior colts season and be drafted at pick 2.

Nobody is writing venables off or saying he is s**t or is only going to be s**t. But everyone saying oh he's definitely a midfielder he has these traits and can do this etc. etc. needs to pull their head in and realise that unless he greatly improves his production he 100% isn't going to be a midfielder. I also actually find him getting great tackle numbers but low amounts of the ball a negative as well. It means that in a lot of cases he's in a position to compete but has failed to be the ball winner.
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Yea I'm not jumping on the 'Venables is going to become a full-time mid that averages 30 disposals a game' argument. I am probably in the camp that that's not the case. But we have multiple players on our list that were completely written off and have turned into out and out guns. I literally just listed 3 'exceptions'. Are they exceptions, or do we just have this ridiculous propensity to pigeon-hole players based on way too small a sample size? You don't have to be a 30+ disposal mid to be a gun; high-impact players that are clean and competent under pressure are worth their weight in gold in high intensity games.

Regarding the missing years; I completely agree. I don't think people appreciate how much influence continuity (both in games played, and the position players are played in) has over a players form and development. But while missing games isn't ideal, id also point to the flipside as the biggest reason why Venables, given an extended run, can improve immensely.
 
AndysAngels said:
Yea I'm not jumping on the 'Venables is going to become a full-time mid that averages 30 disposals a game' argument. I am probably in the camp that that's not the case. But we have multiple players on our list that were completely written off and have turned into out and out guns. I literally just listed 3 'exceptions'. Are they exceptions, or do we just have this ridiculous propensity to pigeon-hole players based on way too small a sample size? You don't have to be a 30+ disposal mid to be a gun; high-impact players that are clean and competent under pressure are worth their weight in gold in high intensity games.

Regarding the missing years; I completely agree. I don't think people appreciate how much influence continuity (both in games played, and the position players are played in) has over a players form and development. But while missing games isn't ideal, id also point to the flipside as the biggest reason why Venables, given an extended run, can improve immensely.
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I definitely agree he can improve immensely. I'd also suggest that in your list of exceptions Sheppard never became a midfielder and only developed into the role that he showed great aptitude as a junior to play. Also just because i quoted you I wasn't solely responding to you but the thread in general. While i also used 30 disposals as an arbitrary figure it's worth noting that Venners has struggled to punch the 20 disposal mark at any level as well. I genuinely worry about his production and ability to read the play as it happens.

Also while we need to develop players we also need to win games. Is the best way to develop Venners to have him really push to improve his running capacity and have him play a run with role with top line mids to lead him into the game more and help him learn at AFL level? I know he won't be able to do it for a full game but a 1/4 to a 1/2 i can see helping him a lot. Going from being a HFF or HBF to a gun mid without having been played as a mid and developed into one almost never happens.

So as a club we need to either say right, this is the role and position we are developing him for and push hard into that area or are we going to play him in a different role. We may find although a rookie pick we may get more out of Smith playing an outside mid / HFF role at afl level while playing Venables in the guts at WAFL level. You develop a player for a role / how you want them to play.
 
He has that one touch possession needed to play as a midfielder and the production aspect of it can be fixed easily enough. His body hasn't helped over the last 3 years so his fitness has never been enough to help him to get there.

Look the way i see it he can actually play the HHF well enough which is something we have sorely lacked for a long time. His aim for 2019 should be the average 15-18 possessions a game and kick around 20 goals. 2020 is where i expect to him take an even bigger step.
 
Yippy Yi Yeo said:
Off the top of my head from his u18 year til now he's suffered a broken leg, turf toe and a broken ankle, all impact injuries. He literally turned 20 last month, instead of sitting there making negative comments and trying to pigeon hole him 5 minutes into his career why don't you just be quiet and let him develop a while longer before making any more rash assumptions.
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You're right again. Everyone who has an opinion that is slightly different to the popular perception should sit quietly in the corner and keep it themselves. It's the only way no one will be caught out being wrong and what happens in real life.
 

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Suma Magic said:
I'm in the "Venables will never be a full-time mid, not that there is anything wrong with that" camp.

Hope I'm wrong.
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AndysAngels said:
Fun fact: Yeo didn't register a 30 disposals until his 90th game, in his sixth season. His two seasons after that, he won the B&F.

Sheppard was well and truly written off by many on here, and in 2015, his sixth season, lit it up as an undersized third tall, ultimately winning player of the finals

Gov was eating pies full time until he decided to pull his finger out and give AFL a red-hot crack in his fourth season on the list, basically winning us a game off his own boot in his third match, and has never looked back

All are easily in our top 10 players now.

Absolutely, for some players, pre-AFL and early-AFL form has a huge bearing and indication on their ability and future career. And for some, it means absolutely f**k all. Venables, imo, is the latter, and is in very good company.
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Agree - and nothing wrong with Venables not being a full time mid. Everything I see points to him being a very good HFF which is great - we need 2 or 3 players in a best 22 that can play the smaller forward role.

I did not see people writing him off. I saw people being realistic and taking him for what he is and not what we want him to be. Great if he transitions to a different level - like Yeo did. Drafted as an attacking medium defender, he flourished there and after a couple of frustrating years playing as a mid, moved him back and we all know the story since then.

Different outcome to Sheppard. We drafted him as a defender, tried to play him as a mid. He underwhelmed us in that role, took him back to defense and he is one of the top medium defenders. I think you mistake "writing off" for "being critical" when not delivering (problem being individual skill set or match committee not playing in the right role.

Gov really only flourished when shifting to CHB. He was pretty good at WAFL as a KPF but when given the role at CHB, we saw a dramatic improvement. He now plays to his strengths - reading of the play and intercept marking. Great attributed and he found his niche. If he was trying to be a KPF, I suggest he would not be AA. This is coming from having seen a lot of him playing KPF at Claremont and then EP.

One of the downsides of making the finals each year is that we rarely get a chance to draft one of the pure midfielders. The first round and especially top 10 are dominated by best pure midfielders. Gaff was probably the last time we got a top 10 midfielder. Since then we have needed to look at other options we hope to be able to make it as a mid. So we draft the likes of Duggan and Venables hoping that they can play midfield. We have had Sheed and Alex Waterman was going to be the ideal partner as the inside bull.

Good news with O'Neill and Foley - they are genuine midfielders so will not need to learn a new role.
 
kaiserchief13 said:
Why so many rucks? Vardy, Hickey, Naitanui, Brooksby, Williams....
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Vardy is injury prone, Hickey could be a potato (most likely 3rd in line), Naitanui could be out for all of 2019, Brooksby has shown glimpses and is a mature body, Williams is an 18 year old rake.

You also forgot McInnes, who is probably fifth in line too and is a definite potato.

Not hard to see why. If we enter Round 1 with three rucks unavailable (a definite possibility), we'd be grateful to have someone like Brooksby there.
 
Forward Press said:
Vardy is injury prone, Hickey could be a potato (most likely 3rd in line), Naitanui could be out for all of 2019, Brooksby has shown glimpses and is a mature body, Williams is an 18 year old rake.

You also forgot McInnes, who is probably fifth in line too and is a definite potato.

Not hard to see why. If we enter Round 1 with three rucks unavailable (a definite possibility), we'd be grateful to have someone like Brooksby there.
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Thing is McInnes wasn't a ruck until Sinclair departed. So 2016 and was probably going to be delisted at the end of 16 then Naitanui does a knee
 
Barney44 said:
You're right again. Everyone who has an opinion that is slightly different to the popular perception should sit quietly in the corner and keep it themselves. It's the only way no one will be caught out being wrong and what happens in real life.
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I am not sure your right to free speech is what’s at stake here.

However, people just want to be positive towards the kid and ur being negative. That doesn’t help to bring love to the world. Completely unjustified.
 
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