It's Happening Ross Lyon is Back to Coach St Kilda - Presser Link in OP

[ChristianBoy]

How do you measure that metric?

Look at lists look where experts rate them. Then how they perform.

 

[PrinceCharles]

Look at lists look where experts rate them. Then how they perform.

"The predictions

St Kilda is once again expected to be the leader on the park in 2010, with the Bulldogs looking like the team most likely to issue a genuine challenge.

Collingwood will go close, Brisbane may surprise and of course you can never discount the Cats."

AFL 2010 Season Preview

The SA Grandstand team preview the 2010 AFL season.

www.abc.net.au

Confirmed Lyon sucks and Malthouse is a genius.

 

[E Shed]

The nothing but premierships count is one of the stupid memes persistently trotted out by people on BF. The same sorts that believe the fact the team they support wins a premiership confers them with superior football knowledge.

Freo winning against Geelong down in Geelong in 2013 is one of the all time great achievements I’ve seen watching football. The following weeks complete obliteration of Sydney one of the strongest, most ruthless team performances I’ve seen.

In the GF Freo got stage fright, utterly reamed by the umps early & managed 1.6 to half time with 2 OOBOTF to Fyfe. Despite that they regrouped, got within 3 points & out scored the Hawks for the second half. And lost.

Does this detract from how wonderful the 2 games before were for Freo fans? Does it mean i forget how great it was seeing Stephen Hill

32

Stephen Hill

Age

33

Ht

183cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.5

5star

K

11.7

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.9

4star

MG

223.5

3star

D

13.5

3star

K

8.8

4star

HB

4.8

3star

M

4.8

4star

T

0.8

1star

MG

223.5

3star

D

11.2

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

5.8

4star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.8

5star

have 4 bounces & bury Geelong? How the greatest football night of my life was in the crowd at Subi against Sydney? The feeling in the train on the way home? Walking down South Tce that night when the whole town was partying? The surreal hyper awareness of the week leading up.

In short does Lyons achievements that year to get us there count for nothing more than what whoever coached the spooners that year achieved? That their fans had just as much enjoyment of their year as us because we fell at the last hurdle?

Such a specious & utterly disingenuous argument.

 

[Danw0w]

The nothing but premierships count is one of the stupid memes persistently trotted out by people on BF.

I wonder why a freo fan would have this opinion

 

[phantom13]

My point isn’t so much that premierships are the only metric that one can use mine is more that it’s the only metric that isn’t subjective.

Coach wins a flag it’s indisputable that they were good as we know that winning a flag requires all the parts. List, coach, luck, etc.

You want to argue that players improved under a coach or that said coach out performed a bad list that’s fine but someone will likely not agree. As noted above, Lyon had probably the best list in footy for 3 years and DIDNT win a flag. Players improving under a coach could be down to a million things plus some players improved and I’d argue some went backwards under Lyon (I’d also argue that isn’t necessarily on him).

None of that means Ross isn’t a good coach I absolutely think he is and I’m glad we’ve got him back now but I just don’t see how you can say, objectively, he’s as good as guys who won a flag.

 

[ChristianBoy]

My point isn’t so much that premierships are the only metric that one can use mine is more that it’s the only metric that isn’t subjective.

Coach wins a flag it’s indisputable that they were good as we know that winning a flag requires all the parts. List, coach, luck, etc.

You want to argue that players improved under a coach or that said coach out performed a bad list that’s fine but someone will likely not agree. As noted above, Lyon had probably the best list in footy for 3 years and DIDNT win a flag. Players improving under a coach could be down to a million things plus some players improved and I’d argue some went backwards under Lyon (I’d also argue that isn’t necessarily on him).

None of that means Ross isn’t a good coach I absolutely think he is and I’m glad we’ve got him back now but I just don’t see how you can say, objectively, he’s as good as guys who won a flag.

How many coaches would have won a flag with Brisbane’s list in 2001

 

[phantom13]

How many coaches would have won a flag with Brisbane’s list in 2001

We will literally never know will we?

Alternately would Malthouse have won one with the Saints?

Guess what… we’ll never know.

 

[Saab NLAW]

I wonder why a freo fan would have this opinion

I agreed with him until recently

 

[fnerd]

Ross Lyon is back to coach st kilda and it seems so is the ol’ saints curse in grand finals…

Fans erupt after Aussie’s nightmare Super Bowl moment: ‘Saints grand final vibes’ — 7NEWS.com.au

The former AFL player copped the brunt of criticism as the Kansas City Chiefs won an action-packed thriller.

apple.news

 

[Freomaniac]

So now you’re arguing he didn’t have a premiership winning list AND you don’t have a metric.

serious question, How long you been a saints fan?

 

[phantom13]

serious question, How long you been a saints fan?

30 years give or take.

 

[Freomaniac]

30 years give or take.

So you were not one of those saints fans that Sat through the mid 1980s when they won 4-5 wooden spoons in a row.

I have Been a freo fan for at least 20 years give or take.

At least from the AFL era, your team has been way better than What Richmond went through between 1983-2012. They only made finals in 1995 and 2001. finished 9th in 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2006 and 2008.

Saints in the AFL Era made finals in these Following years: 1991-2, 1997-8, 2004-6, 2008-11 and 2020. At least from 1983-2012, Saints made finals in 11 years out of 30. Or If it was from 1990-2022, 12 years out of 33. So on average 1 finals spot in, 2 finals spot out. They also won 10 or 11 finals in that 1990-2022 period. Made grand finals in 1997, 2009 and 2010.

Freo on the other hand from 1995-2022, that was 8 years of finals out of 28: 2003, 2006, 2010, 2012-15 and 2022. Not great. Only made back to back finals in 2012-15. You Already know who was coaching freo from 2012-15.

And you Wonder why I will always savour those 9 finals played under Ross Lyon from 2012-15.

And lets also talk about the time Freo made finals in 2003 and 2006. Freos coach from 2002-7 was Chris Connolly. The only thing freo got was an elim final loss at home to essendon in 2003. 9th in 2004, 10th in 2005 because we lost to Port in round 22, 2005, in which Ironically, Port took our spot in the top 8.

And 2006 where we made top 4. Lost to Crows in a Qualifying final, then won a semi final vs the demons and lose to Swans in NSW in the Prelim final.

Put it simply, Chris Connolly underachieved in 2002-7. That freo side should of made finals from 2003-6. It had Key Forward Matty Pavlich starting to kick 50 goals a season. Jeff Farmer was constantly kicking 40-50 goals a season as our best small forward. Traded mids from other Clubs like Peter Bell (From North melbourne), Josh Carr (From Port) and Des Headland (from Brisbane) who all won a premiership medal at their previous club.


I didnt expect a flag under connolly. But we at least deserved to make finals every year from 2003-6 just on talent and (Finals) experience alone.

Ross Lyon overachieved with a limited list that carried guys Like Nick Suban, Matt De Boer, Clancee Pearce, Cam Sutcliffe. etc.

 

[phantom13]

So you were not one of those saints fans that Sat through the mid 1980s when they won 4-5 wooden spoons in a row.

I have Been a freo fan for at least 20 years give or take.

At least from the AFL era, your team has been way better than What Richmond went through between 1983-2012. They only made finals in 1995 and 1999. finished 9th in 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2006 and 2008.

Saints in the AFL Era made finals in these Following years: 1991-2, 1997-8, 2004-6, 2008-11 and 2020. At least from 1983-2012, Saints made finals in 11 years out of 30. Or If it was from 1990-2022, 12 years out of 33. So on average 1 finals spot in, 2 finals spot out. They also won 10 or 11 finals in that 1990-2022 period. Made grand finals in 1997, 2009 and 2010.

Freo on the other hand from 1995-2022, that was 8 years of finals out of 28: 2003, 2006, 2010, 2012-15 and 2022. Not great. Only made back to back finals in 2012-15. You Already know who was coaching freo from 2012-15. And you Wonder why I will always savour those 9 finals played under Ross Lyon from 2012-15.

And lets also talk about the time Freo made finals in 2003 and 2006. Freos coach from 2002-7 was Chris Connolly. The only thing freo got was an elim final loss at home to essendon in 2003. 9th in 2004, 10th in 2005 because we lost to Port in round 22, 2005, in which Ironically, Port took our spot in the top 8. And 2006 where we made top 4. Lost to Crows in a Qualifying final, then won a semi final vs the demons and lose to Swans in NSW in the Prelim final.

Put it simply, Chris Connolly underachieved in 2002-7. That freo side should of made finals from 2003-6. It had Key Forward Matty Pavlich starting to kick 50 goals a season. Jeff Farmer was constantly kicking 40-50 goals a season as our best small forward. Traded mids from other Clubs like Peter Bell (From North melbourne), Josh Carr (From Port) and Des Headland (from Brisbane) who all won a premiership medal at their previous club. I didnt expect a flag under connolly. But we at least deserved to make finals every year from 2003-6 just on talent and (Finals) experience alone.

Ross Lyon overachieved with a limited list that carried guys Like Nick Suban, Matt De Boer, Clancee Pearce, Cam Sutcliffe. etc.

Cool, what do Connolly and Lyon have in common?

 

[Pistol Night]

Cool, what do Connolly and Lyon have in common?

First names that end in S?

 

[Freomaniac]

Cool, what do Connolly and Lyon have in common?

both got freo in finals at least in 2 different seasons.

Only difference is Under Lyon, we finally did it consecutively or back to back.

Under Connolly it was finals one year then miss out on finals for 2 years then finals the next year.

 

[phantom13]

both got freo in finals at least in 2 different seasons.

Only difference is Under Lyon, we finally did it consecutively or back to back.

Under Connolly it was finals one year then miss out on finals for 2 years then finals the next year.

I thought the answer was obvious…

So you think Freo under performed with Connolly and then over performed with Lyon. Sure. You might be right but at a point that team had some genuine stars and still couldn’t get a flag.

You’d find plenty of saints fans who think we should have won a flag when Lyon was there with our list.

So both points are subjective. It’s opinion that you can probably provide some stats for but can just as easily be shown the other way.

You know what’s not subjective? What’s indisputable?

You weren’t great at this before so I’ll help you out. A premiership.

I’m not even arguing with your opinion and as I’ve stated I think Ross is great, I’m stoked we got him back but he’s not a premiership winning coach (yet).

My only point is that it’s the only objective measure of ultimate success. You can say finals series abs first place finishes too and they are genuinely non subjective metrics but they’re also argurably not success by afl standard measure. No ones talking about the race to runner ups.

 

[Outtatym]

Coach that over achieves with a poor list. A coach that players improve under.

I assume you think Brad Scott is one of the greats using this logic

 

[ChristianBoy]

I assume you think Brad Scott is one of the greats using this logic

Maybe he is

 

[Mr Cheese]

I thought the answer was obvious…

So you think Freo under performed with Connolly and then over performed with Lyon. Sure. You might be right but at a point that team had some genuine stars and still couldn’t get a flag.

You’d find plenty of saints fans who think we should have won a flag when Lyon was there with our list.

So both points are subjective. It’s opinion that you can probably provide some stats for but can just as easily be shown the other way.

You know what’s not subjective? What’s indisputable?

You weren’t great at this before so I’ll help you out. A premiership.

I’m not even arguing with your opinion and as I’ve stated I think Ross is great, I’m stoked we got him back but he’s not a premiership winning coach (yet).

My only point is that it’s the only objective measure of ultimate success. You can say finals series abs first place finishes too and they are genuinely non subjective metrics but they’re also argurably not success by afl standard measure. No ones talking about the race to runner ups.

I'd actually disagree. Making finals is an objectively better method of judging a coach (even moreso top-4 finishes or a McClelland) as there is less opportunity for luck or external factors such as injury to impact the result. Probably why Soccer employs a league system across the year.

Don't get me wrong, you could use it as a metric to separate coaches of similar standing (Lyon would sit behind Clarko and Dimma for sure) but as for it being a singular and definitive metric? Too many variables play into winning a premiership on the day for that to be true.

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[phantom13]

I'd actually disagree. Making finals is an objectively better method of judging a coach (even moreso top-4 finishes or a McClelland) as there is less opportunity for luck or external factors such as injury to impact the result. Probably why Soccer employs a league system across the year.

Don't get me wrong, you could use it as a metric to separate coaches of similar standing (Lyon would sit behind Clarko and Dimma for sure) but as for it being a singular and definitive metric? Too many variables play into winning a premiership on the day for that to be true.

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How about when Carlton made finals because Essendon copped their suspensions and then won a final?

No luck at all involved in that?

Every success in football involves luck and again, you can use top 8 but does a team expected to finish top 8 finishing 7th constitute success?

So its still subjective isnt it?

 

[owen87]

I thought the answer was obvious…

So you think Freo under performed with Connolly and then over performed with Lyon. Sure. You might be right but at a point that team had some genuine stars and still couldn’t get a flag.

You’d find plenty of saints fans who think we should have won a flag when Lyon was there with our list.

So both points are subjective. It’s opinion that you can probably provide some stats for but can just as easily be shown the other way.

You know what’s not subjective? What’s indisputable?

You weren’t great at this before so I’ll help you out. A premiership.

I’m not even arguing with your opinion and as I’ve stated I think Ross is great, I’m stoked we got him back but he’s not a premiership winning coach (yet).

My only point is that it’s the only objective measure of ultimate success. You can say finals series abs first place finishes too and they are genuinely non subjective metrics but they’re also argurably not success by afl standard measure. No ones talking about the race to runner ups.

How would you rate Lyon as compared to Beveridge, Goodwin or Simpson? If you had to pick a coach would you take all of them ahead of Lyon because they've won a Premiership and Lyon hasn't?

 

[phantom13]

How would you rate Lyon as compared to Beveridge, Goodwin or Simpson? If you had to pick a coach would you take all of them ahead of Lyon because they've won a Premiership and Lyon hasn't?

Alot of people really caught up on someone noting that a premiership is the only really objective measure of success like i dont have my own subjective measures and opinions.

Thats before you even consider whats best for the club with its profile, list, expectations.

Im stoked with Ross, ive said that numerous times. Would i take those others over him because they have premierships, of course not, would i take them if all other measures were equal AND they had a flag when Ross didnt, yeh i probably would.

If he doesnt win a flag this time around and retires without one would anyone describe him as "as successful as Beveridge, Goodwin or Simpson"?

Id be stunned if anyone would.

 

[owen87]

Alot of people really caught up on someone noting that a premiership is the only really objective measure of success like i dont have my own subjective measures and opinions.

Thats before you even consider whats best for the club with its profile, list, expectations.

Im stoked with Ross, ive said that numerous times. Would i take those others over him because they have premierships, of course not, would i take them if all other measures were equal AND they had a flag when Ross didnt, yeh i probably would.

If he doesnt win a flag this time around and retires without one would anyone describe him as "as successful as Beveridge, Goodwin or Simpson"?

Id be stunned if anyone would.

Personally I think (thus far) he's a better coach than that cohort, but behind Clarkson, Scott, Hardwick and Longmire.

Managing to take two different clubs to a GF is a great performance, and I do think generally he's gotten as much out of the lists he's had as anyone else would have. One bad bounce going the other way and he'd have a Premiership.

Without a Premiership he'll likely be forgotten in the passage of time except for those of us who remember him when we're all old though, whilst the others might be lesser coaches but have their names stamped in the record books.

The AFL traditionally has an all or nothing view of things, you won a Premiership or you didn't. Having a long-term successful record (e.g. Chris Scott) with less Premierships doesn't necessarily mean Scott is a worse coach than Hardwick or Clarkson given all the other factors at play.

That Ross took two sides with limited off-field resources in St Kilda and Fremantle to a GF is pretty impressive.

 

[phantom13]

Personally I think (thus far) he's a better coach than that cohort, but behind Clarkson, Scott, Hardwick and Longmire.

Managing to take two different clubs to a GF is a great performance, and I do think generally he's gotten as much out of the lists he's had as anyone else would have. One bad bounce going the other way and he'd have a Premiership.

Without a Premiership he'll likely be forgotten in the passage of time except for those of us who remember him when we're all old though, whilst the others might be lesser coaches but have their names stamped in the record books.

The AFL traditionally has an all or nothing view of things, you won a Premiership or you didn't. Having a long-term successful record (e.g. Chris Scott) with less Premierships doesn't necessarily mean Scott is a worse coach than Hardwick or Clarkson given all the other factors at play.

That Ross took two sides with limited off-field resources in St Kilda and Fremantle to a GF is pretty impressive.

I completely agree with most of that (im not sure if hes better or not than that cohort, ive never given it too much thought) and again my only point is that when its all taken into account the only thing we consider successful in AFL is a flag.

The saints have 1 in our 150 year history and we are (rightly) considered the least successful club. Amusingly GWS who have made a flag and a prelim are exactly as successful as the Gold Coast right now. Not really fair but thats just the way it is.

As you say in the annals of history Ross wont be remembered if he doesnt win a flag, like Stan Alves before him (who was a fantastic coach and modernised and implemented many things that werent standard before) and many others.

 

[Mr Cheese]

How about when Carlton made finals because Essendon copped their suspensions and then won a final?

No luck at all involved in that?

Every success in football involves luck and again, you can use top 8 but does a team expected to finish top 8 finishing 7th constitute success?

So its still subjective isnt it?

Anything done once is subjective, I'd completely agree there. But if over several seasons a coach regularly makes finals (higher ladder finish the better) then you can argue that the impact of luck (anything from injuries to suspensions to umpiring to schedule difficulty) is mostly negated, in a way that it can't possibly be in a run of 3 games, or even 1 game in Ross's case.

A case in point would be comparing Ross to Bevo. The dogs win a flag from 7th, arguably with a fair bit of luck, and of course some good coaching, but haven't repeated and have missed out on finals or scraped into the 8. I don't think you can use a premiership win to say that Bevo is better than Ross, I think Ross's CV stacks up better to be honest, mainly because he repeatedly made finals from high finishes with different squads. However, when you look at Dimma winning 3 in 4 years (had some advantages, but no way luck accounts for a period of success like that) then I agree, he should be considered a better coach than anyone other than Clarko currently.

I think we're actually pretty close in terms of our thinking, I just feel you place too much weight on a single premiership against a body of work spanning several seasons. If repeated though (either in succession or with multiple squads), I agree it becomes a very convincing argument. I also agree with your last point that context and expectations should be brought in, hence higher finishes should be more valued accordingly.

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