It's Happening Ross Lyon is Back to Coach St Kilda - Presser Link in OP

[phantom13]

Anything done once is subjective, I'd completely agree there. But if over several seasons a coach regularly makes finals (higher ladder finish the better) then you can argue that the impact of luck (anything from injuries to suspensions to umpiring to schedule difficulty) is mostly negated, in a way that it can't possibly be in a run of 3 games, or even 1 game in Ross's case.

A case in point would be comparing Ross to Bevo. The dogs win a flag from 7th, arguably with a fair bit of luck, and of course some good coaching, but haven't repeated and have missed out on finals or scraped into the 8. I don't think you can use a premiership win to say that Bevo is better than Ross, I think Ross's CV stacks up better to be honest, mainly because he repeatedly made finals from high finishes with different squads. However, when you look at Dimma winning 3 in 4 years (had some advantages, but no way luck accounts for a period of success like that) then I agree, he should be considered a better coach than anyone other than Clarko currently.

I think we're actually pretty close in terms of our thinking, I just feel you place too much weight on a single premiership against a body of work spanning several seasons. If repeated though (either in succession or with multiple squads), I agree it becomes a very convincing argument. I also agree with your last point that context and expectations should be brought in, hence higher finishes should be more valued accordingly.

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That’s not me brother, that’s just the system. Every other measure has to be subjective. Shoukd the dogs have won from 7th? Probably not, but you could argue the fact they did was an example of PERFECT coaching to the season and players and system. You could also argue it was complete ******* raw luck. That’s subjective.

The big shiny cup though. Not subjective.

It’s not really an argument, it also doesn’t mean you can’t present an argument about why you think someone is better than someone else that won’t be absolutely accepted (as per your Ross argument) but cups are a full stop not a question.

 

[Mr Cheese]

That’s not me brother, that’s just the system. Every other measure has to be subjective. Shoukd the dogs have won from 7th? Probably not, but you could argue the fact they did was an example of PERFECT coaching to the season and players and system. You could also argue it was complete ******* raw luck. That’s subjective.

The big shiny cup though. Not subjective.

It’s not really an argument, it also doesn’t mean you can’t present an argument about why you think someone is better than someone else that won’t be absolutely accepted (as per your Ross argument) but cups are a full stop not a question.

But can you objectively state that Bevo is a better coach than Ross based on one Premiership trophy? I don't think so.

The only thing you can state objectively is that he has one Premiership trophy more than Ross.

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[phantom13]

But can you objectively state that Bevo is a better coach than Ross based on one Premiership trophy? I don't think so.

The only thing you can state objectively is that he has one Premiership trophy more than Ross.

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You can and really have to state that he is a more successful coach.

That’s been my point the whole time.

Better is entirely subjective. More successful when you consider what is success in the AFL only is if you want to state what you feel is success. Every ckub that doesn’t win a flag every year didn’t achieve the only discernible measure of on field success.

 

[Mr Cheese]

You can and really have to state that he is a more successful coach.

That’s been my point the whole time.

Better is entirely subjective. More successful when you consider what is success in the AFL only is if you want to state what you feel is success. Every ckub that doesn’t win a flag every year didn’t achieve the only discernible measure of on field success.

If your absolute metric of success is a Premiership, I guess you're right (going to have to agree to disagree on wether this makes Bevo better than Ross), but by that metric of absolute success, if Clarko takes North to a top four finish this year but doesn't get a flag, he is unsuccessful, so surely the idea of what constitutes success has to be contextualised for each club, and situation, making success a subjective thing dependent on context?

Not sure we're going to meet at the same point, but thanks for the discussion; as I said, I don't 100% disagree and you make some really valid points. Unusually for Bigfooty it's been very civil, long may that continue.

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[phantom13]

If your absolute metric of success is a Premiership, I guess you're right (going to have to agree to disagree on wether this makes Bevo better than Ross), but by that metric of absolute success, if Clarko takes North to a top four finish this year but doesn't get a flag, he is unsuccessful, so surely the idea of what constitutes success has to be contextualised for each club, and situation, making success a subjective thing dependent on context?

Not sure we're going to meet at the same point, but thanks for the discussion; as I said, I don't 100% disagree and you make some really valid points. Unusually for Bigfooty it's been very civil, long may that continue.

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To be clear youre the only one saying that a flag makes bevo better. I’m not, never have I also don’t think more successful necessarily means better.

Put it this way. Name the top 8 from 1990? Probably can’t unless you’re some savant, but ill bet you know who won the flag.

It just is the objective measure of success. North finishing fourth would likely be success to them but most others won’t care cause flags matter. Same reason no one gives a s**t about a McClelland.

 

[Mr Cheese]

To be clear youre the only one saying that a flag makes bevo better. I’m not, never have I also don’t think more successful necessarily means better.

Put it this way. Name the top 8 from 1990? Probably can’t unless you’re some savant, but ill bet you know who won the flag.

It just is the objective measure of success. North finishing fourth would likely be success to them but most others won’t care cause flags matter. Same reason no one gives a s**t about a McClelland.

Fair enough and I I think the example of time you use actually makes both our points. As time passes context and detail becomes more and more vague until all you are left with is cold hard stats. At that stage, you're absolutely correct. In 100 years Ross will be seen as a less successful (perhaps an unsuccessful) coach, that's even if he's remembered outside of the clubs he coached, unless he snags one at some point. However, in the here and now, when context can be applied to those stats, his achievements should allow him to be described as a successful coach, no?

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[phantom13]

Fair enough and I I think the example of time you use actually makes both our points. As time passes context and detail becomes more and more vague until all you are left with is cold hard stats. At that stage, you're absolutely correct. In 100 years Ross will be seen as a less successful (perhaps an unsuccessful) coach, that's even if he's remembered outside of the clubs he coached, unless he snags one at some point. However, in the here and now, when context can be applied to those stats, his achievements should allow him to be described as a successful coach, no?

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In a subjective way sure. In an objective way no, I don’t think so.

 

[Freomaniac]

The nothing but premierships count is one of the stupid memes persistently trotted out by people on BF. The same sorts that believe the fact the team they support wins a premiership confers them with superior football knowledge.

Freo winning against Geelong down in Geelong in 2013 is one of the all time great achievements I’ve seen watching football. The following weeks complete obliteration of Sydney one of the strongest, most ruthless team performances I’ve seen.

In the GF Freo got stage fright, utterly reamed by the umps early & managed 1.6 to half time with 2 OOBOTF to Fyfe. Despite that they regrouped, got within 3 points & out scored the Hawks for the second half. And lost.

Does this detract from how wonderful the 2 games before were for Freo fans? Does it mean i forget how great it was seeing Stephen Hill have 4 bounces & bury Geelong? How the greatest football night of my life was in the crowd at Subi against Sydney? The feeling in the train on the way home? Walking down South Tce that night when the whole town was partying? The surreal hyper awareness of the week leading up.

In short does Lyons achievements that year to get us there count for nothing more than what whoever coached the spooners that year achieved? That their fans had just as much enjoyment of their year as us because we fell at the last hurdle?

Such a specious & utterly disingenuous argument.

Just Another reason to Savour that Dockers 2013 season. Sandilands missed 14 weeks with a toe injury.

Pavlich missed 6-8 weeks with an achillies injury. McPharlin missed out 5-6 weeks with injury too. That was our main ruckman, KPF and KPB out.

only won one more final after that 2013 grand final in that ross lyon finals run and that was a Qulaifying final vs the swans in 2015.

 

[mouncey2franklin]

Shoukd the dogs have won from 7th?

According to the AFL, yes, hence the umpiring that day.

Swans fans have every right to be filthy about it to this day.

It was even worse than what happened in the Tigers vs Crows GF a year later.

As for Ross the Boss, I find him annoying at times but I would like to see him win a flag with St Kilda.

Both for the Saints' sake but also for RTB's legacy.

He changed the game, modernised it, decades after soccer implemented rigid structures, the AFL was well overdue.

If his chargers could kick straight in the first quarter he'd have beaten the Hawks that day, too.

That bounce of the ball vs the Pies, the Dawson spoil which went straight to the Cats, christ he's had some bad luck.

Maybe he's cursed. I didn't used to believe in that kind of thing but as I get older, I'm becoming more open minded to it.

Some people just seem blessed and some people seem cursed, I'm tellin' ya.

RTB may be cursed, which (and I'm not trying to be a dick here) means maybe he and the Saints are meant for each other

 

[Feerits Elf]

Oh, you dick.

 

[aussierulesrules]

That Ross took two sides with limited off-field resources in St Kilda and Fremantle to a GF is pretty impressive.

That’s an excellent point. I’m pretty sure it was Ross who said a year or so ago that our football department spend in 2010 was a whopping $3million less than Collingwoods was that year, so that’s got to be taken into account.

To draw with a team that had that many more resources than us and presumably vastly vastly better facilities is not something to be underestimated.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That’s an excellent point. I’m pretty sure it was Ross who said a year or so ago that our football department spend in 2010 was a whopping $3million less than Collingwoods was that year, so that’s got to be taken into account.

To draw with a team that had that many more resources than us and presumably vastly vastly better facilities is not something to be underestimated.

Collingwood at the time had cash to burn.
If someone had suggested to them they hire the Dalai Lama to chant during the games on the off chance it gives them a tiny performance gain they probably would have done it.
( Actually surprised he didn't do it for free for his good mate Heritier ).

 

[Trahanas22]

My point isn’t so much that premierships are the only metric that one can use mine is more that it’s the only metric that isn’t subjective.

Coach wins a flag it’s indisputable that they were good as we know that winning a flag requires all the parts. List, coach, luck, etc.

You want to argue that players improved under a coach or that said coach out performed a bad list that’s fine but someone will likely not agree. As noted above, Lyon had probably the best list in footy for 3 years and DIDNT win a flag. Players improving under a coach could be down to a million things plus some players improved and I’d argue some went backwards under Lyon (I’d also argue that isn’t necessarily on him).

None of that means Ross isn’t a good coach I absolutely think he is and I’m glad we’ve got him back now but I just don’t see how you can say, objectively, he’s as good as guys who won a flag.

I totally agree with you, mate. There has to be an absolute measure of real achievement, a yardstick that every one accepts that it denotes success 100%. Objectively. If this yardstick is not accepted, then a conversation between footy fans about everything really becomes meaningless. Like the Babel tower, no-one speaks the same “language”. Posters just throw favourable for their teams stats at each other at nauseam, a myriad online monologues with no apparent end or resolution.

Once absolute success (i.e. premierships) is equated between coaches or players or teams etc, then you can start comparing them in terms of relative success. Relative to your personal biases and team affiliation. Who is betterer in footballing: Home and away records, consistency in making finals, list quality and resources, awards, individual stats, GOAT status etc. An almost infinite matrix of factors and permutations.

A totally subjective exercise which is fun and useful in honing your debating skills but won’t really lead anywhere. You talk to yourself or supporters from the same club and they agree with you, but most of the other posters (fans of other clubs) don’t and are not really reading or listening to what you are saying.

And Ross’ tortured and restless search for his missing flag, a quest continuing even today, proves the point in question. If he considered himself successful he wouldn’t have bothered doing what he is doing. He would have felt fulfilled. Probably. Subjectively speaking...

 

[PJays]

Reckon it’s about what a coach can do with the list he’s got.

Spot on.

Geelong were more talented than St Kilda, and Saints led all day and only lost because they didn't kick straight. Geelong had about 17 current or former All Australians in their team

Collingwood 10-11 under Malthouse a bloody good team and completely dominant on the MCG. They lost 4 games across 1.5 seasons from mid 2010 to end 2011. 2 of those losses were dead rubbers in the final round of each Home & Away season. They had a stratospheric percentage like we haven't seen since. They regularly pantsed opposition. Only a bad bounce for Milne cost the Saints a flag.

Saints beat Geelong in a final in 2010 too

And Clarkson's Hawks when they still had Buddy, Lyon's Freo team were barely comparable in terms of talent, but were very competitive

All of this makes Lyon a good coach, undeniably

 

[Freomaniac]

That’s an excellent point. I’m pretty sure it was Ross who said a year or so ago that our football department spend in 2010 was a whopping $3million less than Collingwoods was that year, so that’s got to be taken into account.

To draw with a team that had that many more resources than us and presumably vastly vastly better facilities is not something to be underestimated.

Put this In perspective.

Compare Collingwood In 2010-11 to Port Adelaide in 2010-11.

Collingwood had money. Port didn't and if they did, it wasn't much.

Collingwood had many coaches. Port was the only club at the time that had no midfield coach.

Hell Dean Laidley was like a part time coach. He was in Adelaide during the AFL season but back home in Victoria in the off season.

Salary cap floor was 92.5 %. Back in 2010 or 2011, the salary cap was 8.2 million.

Collingwood in 2010 or 2011 used the full 8.2 million and the $575,000 Additional service's arrangement payments or ASA payments.

Port Adelaide used the bare minimum 7.6 million in the salary cap.

Another example.... Mark choco Williams signed a 2 year extension after the 2007 grand final. $500,000 a year.

He was out of contract at the end of 2009. He had to take a 50% pay cut, signed on until 2011, at $250,000 a year.

Choco Williams was sacked in the middle of 2010.

 

[Freomaniac]

Spot on.

Geelong were more talented than St Kilda, and Saints led all day and only lost because they didn't kick straight. Geelong had about 17 current or former All Australians in their team

Collingwood 10-11 under Malthouse a bloody good team and completely dominant on the MCG. They lost 4 games across 1.5 seasons from mid 2010 to end 2011. 2 of those losses were dead rubbers in the final round of each Home & Away season. They had a stratospheric percentage like we haven't seen since. They regularly pantsed opposition. Only a bad bounce for Milne cost the Saints a flag.

Saints beat Geelong in a final in 2010 too

And Clarkson's Hawks when they still had Buddy, Lyon's Freo team were barely comparable in terms of talent, but were very competitive

All of this makes Lyon a good coach, undeniably

And then you got Richmonds 2017-2020. They love comparing that Richmond 2017-20 side to Brisbane's 2001-3 side, cats 2007-11 side and hawks 2013-5 sides.

Some of those tigers will tell you Dustin Martin is the greatest player of all time.

Would Richmonds 2017-20 side the greatest era or Dynasty of all time? Far from it. It was a solid side. It's similar to the crows 1997-8 premiership side. It's a good and solid side but they won flags by having a good finals series and their opposition were horrible on the day.

 

[matthew_s]

And then you got Richmonds 2017-2020. They love comparing that Richmond 2017-20 side to Brisbane's 2001-3 side, cats 2007-11 side and hawks 2013-5 sides.

The whole AFL world owes West Coast a massive, perpetual thank you for 2018. If Richmond had three-peated...Richmond fans...

 

[Freomaniac]

The whole AFL world owes West Coast a massive, perpetual thank you for 2018. If Richmond had three-peated...Richmond fans...

Nope it's more like the AFL world owes Collingwood that beat Richmond In the AFL Grand final.

Scary to think Richmond could of won 4 in a row from 2017-2020.

The only thing west coast did in 2018 is fought the tide against the odd and beat a Victorian side in a grand final when in previous grand finals of 2007, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016, the non Vic sides were beaten in the grand final by the Victorian sides.

 

[matthew_s]

Nope it's more like the AFL world owes Collingwood that beat Richmond In the AFL Grand final.

Scary to think Richmond could of won 4 in a row from 2017-2020.

The only thing west coast did in 2018 is fought the tide against the odd and beat a Victorian side in a grand final when in previous grand finals of 2007, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016, the non Vic sides were beaten in the grand final by the Victorian sides.

Any time Collingwood are denied a flag the world owes their opponents a debt of gratitude

 

[Freomaniac]

Any time Collingwood are denied a flag the world owes their opponents a debt of gratitude

well your team is one of 2 or 3 or possibly even 4 non victorian sides that have ended Collingwoods season in finals or denied them a flag.

1994: You guys won the flag but narrowly knocked off Collingwood in the 1st week.

2002 and 2003: Brisbane won their 3 peat but won the 2002 and 2003 grand finals at collingwoods expense. I actually wanted the crows to beat the magpies in that 2002 prelim final.

2012: Swans beat the magpies in a prelim final, they also won the grand final at the MCG vs the hawks.

2018: well the 2018 grand final between eagles and magpies.

2019: I enjoyed GWS finals run in 2019. Sure they had an empty tank by the time they made the grand final in 2019. I enjoyed GWS winning vs the dogs in the elim final, Brisbane in the gabba at the Semi final and that thrilling win vs the magpies in the prelim final.

2022: Swans beat the magpies by 1 point.

 

[matthew_s]

well your team is one of 2 or 3 or possibly even 4 non victorian sides that have ended Collingwoods season in finals or denied them a flag.

1994: You guys won the flag but narrowly knocked off Collingwood in the 1st week.

2002 and 2003: Brisbane won their 3 peat but won the 2002 and 2003 grand finals at collingwoods expense. I actually wanted the crows to beat the magpies in that 2002 prelim final.

2012: Swans beat the magpies in a prelim final, they also won the grand final at the MCG vs the hawks.

2018: well the 2018 grand final between eagles and magpies.

2019: I enjoyed GWS finals run in 2019. Sure they had an empty tank by the time they made the grand final in 2019. I enjoyed GWS winning vs the dogs in the elim final, Brisbane in the gabba at the Semi final and that thrilling win vs the magpies in the prelim final.

2022: Swans beat the magpies by 1 point.

I’ll let the boys know you send your gratitude

 

[Freomaniac]

I’ll let the boys know you send your gratitude

so even if Gold coast suns knock off Collingwood in a prelim final at the MCG and lose to your mob in a grand final the week after, will respect and gratitude be given? lol

 

[matthew_s]

so even if Gold coast suns knock off Collingwood in a prelim final at the MCG and lose to your mob in a grand final the week after, will respect and gratitude be given? lol

mate, even if it's freo.

 

[WillHayward]

Ross ball is back and opposition sides are going to find it hard to score against.

 

[Freomaniac]

Ross ball is back and opposition sides are going to find it hard to score against.

and I like it.