Toast Round 4 = Collingwood 77-72 Hawthorn

[stormskye]

Yeah I never got that either. People kept going on about McStay but we actually lost more games with him there.

I suspect that's also a reason we seem to not focus on recruiting a true key forward as well (although I disagree with this strategy myself).

We obviously back our system to negate the need for a top line key forward, which in theory is a good thing, but I feel like the two things shouldn't be mutually exclusive. We should be able to back in and develop a Premiership Winning system that doesn't reply on a key forward (which we currently have, clearly) while also managing the list well enough to try and get one in

To say we don’t want a key forward is false. We went hard at both lynch and Cameron. And were ultimately beaten.

In the last few years we haven’t had a pick in that range to actually grab one for a variety of reasons. Yes there’s needle in hay stacks like larkey but realistically that never happens.

I’d argue the one time we really did f up was Stevo over naughton.

Look at where all the good key forwards recently went at. We haven’t been in the conversation to pick them. The good ones are grabbed early.

 

[Robroy22]

Last year with McStay we went 10-4, without, 11-1.

Now that stat on its own doesn't tell the full story, but it suggests there might be more to our current situation than a missing McStay. Better midfield performance will lead to better delivery to our forwards.

I don't doubt that we can feed the forwards better but thats a luxury some of the other sides don't need. GWS with Hogan, Cadman, Riccardi and then Brown and Green their mids can have lots of 1:1 looks. Same with the Cats with Hawkins and Cameron, or Carlton with Charlie and Harry, they demand key defenders look after them and that means their mids get much better looks at delivering the ball. In our current structure, unless we slingshot it off half back we're continually kicking it to a contest where Checkers (or Cameron or Cox) draw a crowd and there's heaps of bodies to try and beat.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Another example of giving meaning to meaningless patterns.

What are you talking about?

How was it not clear that post was just an observation?

Why do so many of you just look to attack certain posters regardless of what they post? It's a sh*tty personality trait and I wish the mods were more onto it

Because in my lengthy time on this forum, one thing I noticed in the ongoing war between the perceived "negative" posters vs the "positive" posters is that the supposed positive posters are the only ones who go the man and not the ball

Funny that isn't it

 

[Robroy22]

Yeah I never got that either. People kept going on about McStay but we actually lost more games with him there.

I suspect that's also a reason we seem to not focus on recruiting a true key forward as well (although I disagree with this strategy myself).

We obviously back our system to negate the need for a top line key forward, which in theory is a good thing, but I feel like the two things shouldn't be mutually exclusive. We should be able to back in and develop a Premiership Winning system that doesn't reply on a key forward (which we currently have, clearly) while also managing the list well enough to try and get one in

How'd we go in the finals with him there? Without McStay we'd have struggled to beat Melbourne let alone the Giants. Melbourne are a good case study though. Last year without key forwards (through injury) their midfield still dominated but without the big blokes up front????

 

[sideswipe]

How'd we go in the finals with him there? Without McStay we'd have struggled to beat Melbourne let alone the Giants. Melbourne are a good case study though. Last year without key forwards (through injury) their midfield still dominated but without the big blokes up front????

2-0 with him there, 1-0 without

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

To say we don’t want a key forward is false. We went hard at both lynch and Cameron. And were ultimately beaten.

In the last few years we haven’t had a pick in that range to actually grab one for a variety of reasons. Yes there’s needle in hay stacks like larkey but realistically that never happens.

I’d argue the one time we really did f up was Stevo over naughton.

Look at where all the good key forwards recently went at. We haven’t been in the conversation to pick them. The good ones are grabbed early.

As you mentioned there was Stevo over Naughton
Mitch Lewis was pick 76
Ollie Henry screwed our future plans by leaving (we didn't want to lose him)
As far as Lynch and Cameron go, that's clearly the list Management part that maybe needs addressing?

Obviously without knowing the behind the scenes details, both Collingwood and Richmond were in Premiership contention when Lynch was up for grabs so I have to question how we couldn't convince a Collingwood supporter to come and play for Collingwood. My assumption is money (which again is list Management) but who knows

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

How'd we go in the finals with him there? Without McStay we'd have struggled to beat Melbourne let alone the Giants. Melbourne are a good case study though. Last year without key forwards (through injury) their midfield still dominated but without the big blokes up front????

Oh no doubt he was 100% the reason we made the Grand Final. I've said this previously here.

Which is why I've been excited about the prospect of him being back well before Finals start. I should have clarified that I was more referring to H&A.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Another example of giving meaning to meaningless patterns.

Hey if he's getting a negative result, I can still see the pattern. Always looking for the negatives.

 

[Pedro]

Just got in the door from the game. Was trying to enjoy it but spent the 2nd & 3rd quarter trying to arrange flights home after getting an email at 1/4 time about our flight being cancelled. After organising it and some accommodation (and spending a crapload of money not budgeted for), we spent the last 1/4 feeling like we would get rolled. I was waiting for Ginnivan to get a dodgy one and pinch the game from us. It would have topped off the night.

Probably didn't get to watch as closely as I'd like, but my standout impression was that it was good to see JDG finally have a decent game. Not too much else to like. Got away with one I think.

 

[No SPIN]

What are you talking about?

How was it not clear that post was just an observation?

Why do so many of you just look to attack certain posters regardless of what they post? It's a sh*tty personality trait and I wish the mods were more onto it

Because in my lengthy time on this forum, one thing I noticed in the ongoing war between the perceived "negative" posters vs the "positive" posters is that the supposed positive posters are the only ones who go the man and not the ball

Funny that isn't it

“You make your bed” - as the saying goes.
Your constant attempts at posturing with meaningless Stats makes you an easy target.

 

[sr36]

What are you talking about?

How was it not clear that post was just an observation?

Why do so many of you just look to attack certain posters regardless of what they post? It's a sh*tty personality trait and I wish the mods were more onto it

Because in my lengthy time on this forum, one thing I noticed in the ongoing war between the perceived "negative" posters vs the "positive" posters is that the supposed positive posters are the only ones who go the man and not the ball

Funny that isn't it

You might want to re-read. The post you responded to was criticising your post. Your post is the one that has played the man.

 

[Capital Magpie]

I think the win on the weekend helps us cling to a possible Top 8 spot.
But we've now put ourselves in a position where almost every game of the next 3 is "season on the line", which is a sh*t position to be in when you're in poor form

But IF we can manage to somehow get to 5-4 or at least 4-5 we should be ok.

We were 4-5 in 2022 and managed to finish Top 4, so Top 8 from 4-5 should be doable

As long as we're Top 8, we're good enough to win it if we switch on

Channelling your inner Trade Draft I see?

 

[cakewalk_1]

Our recent record against the hawks is woeful. They could be competing in an amatures competition and still have the belief that they could beat us any time, anywhere.
They were 38 points down (A bottom 4 team in the last 2 years) and did not look like giving up against us.
We looked tired and appeared to be lost in the last quarter.

 

[sr36]

I think the win on the weekend helps us cling to a possible Top 8 spot.
But we've now put ourselves in a position where almost every game of the next 3 is "season on the line", which is a sh*t position to be in when you're in poor form

But IF we can manage to somehow get to 5-4 or at least 4-5 we should be ok.

We were 4-5 in 2022 and managed to finish Top 4, so Top 8 from 4-5 should be doable

As long as we're Top 8, we're good enough to win it if we switch on

2 out of 3 from here gets us a spot in the finals - comfortably. It doesn't matter which ones we win or lose.

 

[ellesbells]

In my opinion the window has closed, the 4 oldest players (Pendles Sidey Howe and Cox all 33yrs and above) have to be replaced with real quality and I doubt it can be done with anything we've got developing.

Midfield is the main concern, we need a gun to go with De Goey and Daicos, preferably a big unit that can take the big hits and get it out to the talent, another speedster on the outside would be nice too.

Frampton has made the tall department down back a little easier, he and Moore are the clear tall timber with either Murphy (if all goes well) or Jiath to take the 3rd tall interceptor role from Howe.

Rucks are adequate with Steene a great prospect and Begg a bit of who knows, athletically he's brilliant but he's undersized and could end up a key tall.

Forward talls is another area of immediate concern, Kreuger and Johnson have not worked out so there is nothing developing in the magoos to fix it, McStay back will help but he needs a partner with Checkers the wrong side of 30.

So for mine it's 2 elite mids and a key forward to get back in the game/window.

 

[No SPIN]

In my opinion the window has closed, the 4 oldest players (Pendles Sidey Howe and Cox all 33yrs and above) have to be replaced with real quality and I doubt it can be done with anything we've got developing.

Midfield is the main concern, we need a gun to go with De Goey and Daicos, preferably a big unit that can take the big hits and get it out to the talent, another speedster on the outside would be nice too, preferably a playmaker off the back flank to release Naicos.

Frampton has made the tall department down back a little easier, he and Moore are the clear tall timber with either Murphy (if all goes well) or Jiath to take the 3rd tall interceptor role from Howe.

Rucks are adequate with Steene a great prospect and Begg a bit of who knows, athletically he's brilliant but he's undersized and could end up a key tall.

Forward talls is another area of immediate concern, Kreuger and Johnson have not worked out so there is nothing developing in the magoos to fix it, McStay back will help but he needs a partner with Checkers the wrong side of 30.

So for mine it's 2 elite mids and a key forward to get back in the game/window.

The players you mentioned are passed their athletic peak - so will not be hard to replace.
Loss of experience and on field leadership will be the issue.

 

[sideswipe]

In my opinion the window has closed, the 4 oldest players (Pendles Sidey Howe and Cox all 33yrs and above) have to be replaced with real quality and I doubt it can be done with anything we've got developing.

Midfield is the main concern, we need a gun to go with De Goey and Daicos, preferably a big unit that can take the big hits and get it out to the talent, another speedster on the outside would be nice too.

Frampton has made the tall department down back a little easier, he and Moore are the clear tall timber with either Murphy (if all goes well) or Jiath to take the 3rd tall interceptor role from Howe.

Rucks are adequate with Steene a great prospect and Begg a bit of who knows, athletically he's brilliant but he's undersized and could end up a key tall.

Forward talls is another area of immediate concern, Kreuger and Johnson have not worked out so there is nothing developing in the magoos to fix it, McStay back will help but he needs a partner with Checkers the wrong side of 30.

So for mine it's 2 elite mids and a key forward to get back in the game/window.

You're a fighter, I can tell. A never give up kinda guy.

 

[ellesbells]

The players you mentioned are passed their athletic peak - so will not be hard to replace.
Loss of experience and on field leadership will be the issue.

Hopefully that comes from the next tier down (Moore Maynard etc) but I'm not as hopeful as you are about replacing their talent. Pendles got 11 disposals in the last quarter of the Grand Final and Sidey iced the game, even Howe set up Bobby for that speccy with a daring corridor attack not many would have tried and Cox took over the ruck and dominated.
I don't think we have a single player in the magoos to replace any of that, Macrae is the closest we have to a midfielder and he hasn't come on yet, Reef is a 3rd tall not a key, and then you're down to Harrison types that look likely but who knows.

 

[sr36]

In my opinion the window has closed, the 4 oldest players (Pendles Sidey Howe and Cox all 33yrs and above.)

We don't need to replace peak Pendles, Sidey and Howe. They can probably repeat their 2023 form - or at least get close this year. Cox is Cox - he's played 5+ games like that a year for how many years now?

If we can get our ball handling and confidence back, we can win give it a shake this year.

 

[ellesbells]

You're a fighter, I can tell. A never give up kinda guy.

No I'm a stats guy, and yes they can lead you astray, the beginning of last year I'm looking around thinking why the hell are we topping up instead of rebuilding? I was wrong and never been happier to be wrong but this year I'm seeing what the numbers were telling me last year. But it's not all doom and gloom, we are following the same trajectory as Geelong agewise and 3 or 4 players can change the dynamic, I just don't know where we are getting them from because it's certainly not the magoos.

 

[sideswipe]

Hopefully that comes from the next tier down (Moore Maynard etc) but I'm not as hopeful as you are about replacing their talent. Pendles got 11 disposals in the last quarter of the Grand Final and Sidey iced the game, even Howe set up Bobby for that speccy with a daring corridor attack not many would have tried and Cox took over the ruck and dominated.
I don't think we have a single player in the magoos to replace any of that, Macrae is the closest we have to a midfielder and he hasn't come on yet, Reef is a 3rd tall not a key, and then you're down to Harrison types that look likely but who knows.

Father Time catches everyone in the end, but to suggest Pendles and Sidey are suddenly past it, 6 months after the performances you named, well, can you explain how this sudden physical(or is it mental?) deterioration has occurred?

 

[sideswipe]

No I'm a stats guy, and yes they can lead you astray, the beginning of last year I'm looking around thinking why the hell are we topping up instead of rebuilding? I was wrong and never been happier to be wrong but this year I'm seeing what the numbers were telling me last year. But it's not all doom and gloom, we are following the same trajectory as Geelong agewise and 3 or 4 players can change the dynamic, I just don't know where we are getting them from because it's certainly not the magoos.

What stats? I'll start listening if you say GPS data.

 

[Go Woods]

Nick isn’t really dominating the way I thought he would. He’s been good but I wouldn’t say top 10 in the league good.

Leave him at HB for the foreseeable future, had a great game against the Brions their.
We need to put games into Sullivan, Fin and very soon Allan & Richards and at who's expense?
WHE
Sidey/Pendles - manage on/off for most of the season.
Elliot - same as Sidey/Pendles.

 

[ellesbells]

Father Time catches everyone in the end, but to suggest Pendles and Sidey are suddenly past it, 6 months after the performances you named, well, can you explain how this sudden physical(or is it mental?) deterioration has occurred?

Well I could cite every player that has ever played and fell off a cliff, that's just how it happens unfortunately, it's only a yard of pace at this level and you're gone. But I will certainly be hoping you are right and we get McStay back in August and cruise into a Grand Final we can't lose.

 

[sr36]

If Murphy comes back, Moore can definitely play forward alongside Checkers because Frampton is killing it and Howe seems to be making his way back into some form

Shame Dean will take some more time in the oven and Eyre is still a while away

STILL can't believe we didn't take Sofronidis. Baffling decision

Sofronidis isn't a tall - he'd be competing with Maynard, WHE, Ryan, Jiath