Autopsy Round 9, 2019: Collingwood v St.Kilda *Bruce 100th, Savage 150th, Young debut*

MrFoster

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Not quite.

Our entries are not clean because the opposition don't allow it IMO.

The common factor is our midfield and subsequent skill levels.

Against weaker mids we do OK. Against the better teams we do not.

Simply put we are getting outplayed and lack of silk in the middle is causingbus to rush or kick under pressure far too often.

IMO of course.
Missing Hays; Dal Santo; Goddard; Montagna type players who can drill a 20-45 metre kick down a forward’s throat consistently.. or at least to their advantage..

Can’t think of anyone from our current mids who can do that. explains our wasteful forward entries I guess. So when people say just fix up the forward entries.. by who and how? get our good kicks from half back to play mid? Webster; Wilkie; White; Savage?
 

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Stewart66

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Missing Hays; Dal Santo; Goddard; Montagna type players who can drill a 20-45 metre kick down a forward’s throat consistently.. or at least to their advantage..

Can’t think of anyone from our current mids who can do that. That explains our wasteful forward entries I guess.

Hunter Clark

Ben Paton

Jack Billings

Jack Sinclair


Unfortunately we currently have others regularly selected and played in that part of the ground instead
of the above , hence the problem.
 

austinnn

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it's not going to be fixed any time soon. we are literally talking about a complete rebuild of the midfield. i think what we have identified through this entire exercise is that it's easier to rebuild your spine than it is to rebuild your midfield.

which goes against the grain of what people having been banging on about since day 1 of the rebuild. "you need to rebuild your spine, it takes longer."... yet we found the replacements for our KPF and KPD relatively quick. even with injuries we've found serviceable replacements. we found carlisle, brown, bruce, membrey, roberton, marshall quicker than it's taken us to find 1 inside mid. then injuries hit and we've found marsh and wilkie in 1 season mind you.

we desperately need an inside mid and we can't find one.
Bytel is inside mid
 

Saintbloke

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We could actually play a lot better- and quite a few of our players need to hit the intensity button- looks like the coach can't do much inspirationally. The frustration is that I know we can do better- even with the cattle out there now.
 

VDS66

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We could actually play a lot better- and quite a few of our players need to hit the intensity button- looks like the coach can't do much inspirationally. The frustration is that I know we can do better- even with the cattle out there now.
Disagree.

Players have been giving effort.

Difference is the quality of opposition. We were in it for 3/4 on Saturday, but the cream rose to the top.

That's a talent issue.

But if you have it ingrained that everything is the coach's fault then logic ain't gonna cut it.
 

MrFoster

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Hunter Clark

Ben Paton

Jack Billings

Jack Sinclair


Unfortunately we currently have others regularly selected and played in that part of the ground instead
of the above , hence the problem.
Wouldn't consider any of the 4 above as elite ball users who does it consistently compared to Hays/Goddard/Dal Santo/Montagna.. the first 2 haven't demonstrated
that in the 20 or less game they played.. Billings & Sinclair are ok users, but nowhere near elite.. Billings is a 50/50
kick at best for me.. often turning the ball over kicking inside 50.
 

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mightymalaka

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Disagree.

Players have been giving effort.

Difference is the quality of opposition. We were in it for 3/4 on Saturday, but the cream rose to the top.

That's a talent issue.

But if you have it ingrained that everything is the coach's fault then logic ain't gonna cut it.
If we are able to go with all of our last 4 opponents for 3 quarters but not 4, it suggests to me that it's more mental than anything!

Whilst you may have a point re
Collingwood having a bit more cream than us, it also suggests there is still a lack of belief within this group that rears it's ugly head
All too often when it comes time to mixing it with the big boys! I'd like to see Richo become bolder in those moments and switch it up with a more attacking
Mindset! Therefore instilling in the boys more confidence in themselves and a feeling that they belong in that company. Back them in
Instead of always focussing on just hanging in there with defensive set ups where eventually the Dam wall invariably bursts!
 

VDS66

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If we are able to go with all of our last 4 opponents for 3 quarters but not 4, it suggests to me that it's more mental than anything!

Whilst you may have a point re
Collingwood having a bit more cream than us, it also suggests there is still a lack of belief within this group that rears it's ugly head
All too often when it comes time to mixing it with the big boys! I'd like to see Richo become bolder in those moments and switch it up with a more attacking
Mindset! Therefore instilling in the boys more confidence in themselves and a feeling that they belong in that company. Back them in
Instead of always focussing on just hanging in there with defensive set ups where eventually the Dam wall invariably bursts!
In my opinion, we don't have the talent to win against the top teams.

To go 3/4 against them tells me we are being outplayed.

Pretty sure they have all been backed in.

Frankly we can be as bold as we want, but if you don't have the cattle, then you're shuffling cows on Noah's ark...

IMO the mindset is fine so far. The only worry is if they don't win next week, then the doubts will be amplified.

For all the potential we have, facts are we just aren't up to beating the stronger teams, and our win / loss ratio thus far is testament to that.
 

MrFoster

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If we are able to go with all of our last 4 opponents for 3 quarters but not 4, it suggests to me that it's more mental than anything!

Whilst you may have a point re
Collingwood having a bit more cream than us, it also suggests there is still a lack of belief within this group that rears it's ugly head
All too often when it comes time to mixing it with the big boys! I'd like to see Richo become bolder in those moments and switch it up with a more attacking
Mindset! Therefore instilling in the boys more confidence in themselves and a feeling that they belong in that company. Back them in
Instead of always focussing on just hanging in there with defensive set ups where eventually the Dam wall invariably bursts!
As much as I like to think we’re close to being a top side. We’re not. In a straight shoot out, we would have been flogged by the pies.. Currently against top teams we had to play ultra defensively just to stay close on the score board, choking their scoring as much as ours by pressuring/flooding...

Our forwards and defenders are good.. but the midfield would be bottom 2 in terms of quality and quantity.. the reason Brisbane all of a sudden is ultra competitive is they’ve added Neal(25 year old) a star mid to experienced players in Rich(28), Zorko(30), Lyons(26) plus development of young guns in Mccluggage, Witherdon, Berry.. Bytel, Clark, Coffield are all to young too make an impact.. we need to get experienced help quick, so young kids can step up naturally rather than carry all the load in the midfield.

Currently we have
Ross, 26
Dunstan, 24
Steele, 23

daylight..

Trying to play mids
Gresham 21
Acres 23
Billings 23
Sinclair 23

then too green..
Clark 19
Coffield 19
Bytel 18

the comparison is stark.
 
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mightymalaka

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As much as I like to think we’re close to being a top side. We’re not. In a straight shoot out, we would have been flogged by the pies.. Currently against top teams we had to play ultra defensively just to stay close on the score board, choking their scoring as much as ours by pressuring/flooding...

Our forwards and defenders are good.. but the midfield would be bottom 2 in terms of quality and quantity.. the reason Brisbane all of a sudden is ultra competitive is they’ve added Neal a star mid to experienced players in Rich, Zorko, Lyons plus development of young guns in Mccluggage, Witherson, Berry. Bytel, Clark, Coffield are all to young too make an impact.. we need to get experienced help quick, so young kids can step up naturally rather than carry all the load in the midfield.
Presently our young kids are not carrying any load! They are busy scratching around trying to get a kick off a half back flank in the two's!
 

austinnn

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i think newnes is a soldier. you need them. but you can't have a team of them and i think the issue is because we don't have an A grade or elite mid, we look to the older players on our list and then question why they aren't it.

Newnes was drafted as a small to medium sized running defender. he then started there and worked his way up to being played on the wing. since then he's been thrown forward and back. that's a pretty damn good outcome for the pick we used and what we drafted him as. i don't think any of us expected him to be the star mid of our side. just like we're not expecting it of say paton.

you also need those players. the problem is we don't have the midfield that will allow newnes to be effective and play his role. we shouldn't need to rely on him. we should have a core group in the midfield who can play consistent football. now i'm not expecting them to win every game here but they should be contenting. we don't have that.

players that should be addressing that are dunstan, billings, steven, armitage, hanners, acres. all high draft picks or high contract value. right now billings is probably the only one looking A grade. the rest aren't there or are not performing.
I agree. In a good team fellas like Newnes and Ross play roles like Andrew Thompson or Stephen Powell did in times past. Even Jack Steven shouldn't really be the guy you'd hang your hat on.

Newnes was doing a lot better earlier in the year, but Ross never really impresses me even when he gets BOG and 10 coaches points. I don't know why I cannot see the good elements of his game. I know he gets a lot of the ball and is involved in most chains, but his decision making with short range disposal timing sells his teammates into all sorts of trouble and his long field kicking is rushed and if I had to guess I would say sub 50% find a teammate cleanly, either off target or slow and loopy making intended recipient a sitting duck for an oppo contested possession.

He is one of the fewer players we have whose market value is probably higher than his internal value to the team, so as good as he probably is, I would advocate getting top price for him, either first rd dp or trade in young player with more promise, not Zac Jones, someone a bit classier.

But I wanted Bruce, Newnes and Lonie traded last year, not sure I should be voicing my opinion.
 

gringo2011

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If we are able to go with all of our last 4 opponents for 3 quarters but not 4, it suggests to me that it's more mental than anything!

Whilst you may have a point re
Collingwood having a bit more cream than us, it also suggests there is still a lack of belief within this group that rears it's ugly head
All too often when it comes time to mixing it with the big boys! I'd like to see Richo become bolder in those moments and switch it up with a more attacking
Mindset! Therefore instilling in the boys more confidence in themselves and a feeling that they belong in that company. Back them in
Instead of always focussing on just hanging in there with defensive set ups where eventually the Dam wall invariably bursts!

Collingwood
Elite players: Grundy, De Goey, Treloar, Pendlebury, Beames.
A grade: Sidebottom, Elliott, Reid, Phillips, Hoskins-Elliott, Howe.
High Level: Stephenson, Langdon, Moore, Adams.
Then a heap of good B talent as well.

St Kilda:
Elite: Ummm.
A grade: Billings, Carlisle, Stuv, Roberton, Hanners, Ross.
High Level: Savage, Gresham, Geary, Members, Webster
We have a heap of developing talent though like Parker, Battle, Lonie, Marshall.

That's more than cream, that's more like we have a glass of low fat and they have a bucket of full cream.

When we put our list up next to the top 4 sides, Richo, Lade and Ratts are performing some kind of voodoo. I hope those scum buckets at Carlton don't come calling with their paper bags.
 

Stewart66

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In my opinion, we don't have the talent to win against the top teams.

To go 3/4 against them tells me we are being outplayed.

Pretty sure they have all been backed in.

Frankly we can be as bold as we want, but if you don't have the cattle, then you're shuffling cows on Noah's ark...

IMO the mindset is fine so far. The only worry is if they don't win next week, then the doubts will be amplified.

For all the potential we have, facts are we just aren't up to beating the stronger teams, and our win / loss ratio thus far is testament to that.

Particularly team’s with deep midfields they just keep rotating against our 4 simply run out of legs.
 

gringo2011

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I agree. In a good team fellas like Newnes and Ross play roles like Andrew Thompson or Stephen Powell did in times past. Even Jack Steven shouldn't really be the guy you'd hang your hat on.

Newnes was doing a lot better earlier in the year, but Ross never really impresses me even when he gets BOG and 10 coaches points. I don't know why I cannot see the good elements of his game. I know he gets a lot of the ball and is involved in most chains, but his decision making with short range disposal timing sells his teammates into all sorts of trouble and his long field kicking is rushed and if I had to guess I would say sub 50% find a teammate cleanly, either off target or slow and loopy making intended recipient a sitting duck for an oppo contested possession.

He is one of the fewer players we have whose market value is probably higher than his internal value to the team, so as good as he probably is, I would advocate getting top price for him, either first rd dp or trade in young player with more promise, not Zac Jones, someone a bit classier.

But I wanted Bruce, Newnes and Lonie traded last year, not sure I should be voicing my opinion.

Think that's the thing, a midfield should be a unit and we have players who get pressured because there is no one to pick up slack. Seb Ross isn't Paddy Cripps, he's a very good soft outside mid. A bit like Gaff didn't have many fans once, he runs around getting dished out to. He's poor under pressure but he takes o the responsibility of holding on to the ball to slow play while our forwards are trying to get back. I heard Gary Lyon whining about how Clayton Oliver dishes off before he gets tackled and they want him to be more like Pendles and take responsibility to hold on to it when they need him to. Seb is not as skilled as the very best but with more help he'd be a much better player.
 

mightymalaka

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Think that's the thing, a midfield should be a unit and we have players who get pressured because there is no one to pick up slack. Seb Ross isn't Paddy Cripps, he's a very good soft outside mid. A bit like Gaff didn't have many fans once, he runs around getting dished out to. He's poor under pressure but he takes o the responsibility of holding on to the ball to slow play while our forwards are trying to get back. I heard Gary Lyon whining about how Clayton Oliver dishes off before he gets tackled and they want him to be more like Pendles and take responsibility to hold on to it when they need him to. Seb is not as skilled as the very best but with more help he'd be a much better player.
That should read he's a very soft outside mid! :p Would like to be a bigger man than offer up yet another cheap shot!
But the truth is I'm Not! I'm a very petty stubborn little child who does not like your narrative! :think:
For all my negativity towards Seb. Your man crush on him has me very concerned! ;) Pedo signing out!
 

austinnn

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What concerns me is not necessarily that we have better or worse players than our opposition, it is the question of whether we have - and whether we are able to - maximise the potential of our young players inside their first 50 games.

Most of our players have played between 0-100 games, many are still at a stage we should consider formative; their equivalents in other teams seem to be developing better.

Is that because they were better players to begin with?
Is it because they are in stronger teams, giving them less pressure and the ability to learn their chops with a solid structure around them?
Is it because we have not been, until the pre-season just past, demanding enough in terms of standards and effort in training?
Is it because we just have or had the wrong coaches or outdated coaches?
Is it because of our poor 2nds team situation and our selection strategy?
Is it simply because the team is losing?

I remarked last year that Nick Coffield, then a first year player, seemed very upset after each loss, whereas the older more experienced Saints around him seemed to just casually brush it off. I despaired that after some time he himself would develop a cavalier reaction to failure and stagnation after some time in this environment. Has this come to be? (just to be clear, I'm usuing Coff as an example, not specifically targetting him; are our young players being conditioned to stagnate and expect mediocre results?)

Oh for the days when our young players had Rob Harvey, Stewie Loewe, Max Hudgeton, Nathan Burke, Lenny Hayes, etc to play next to and train next to and feed off.

I am really hoping our new coaching team has a vision for the long term.

Change is already happening but I wish it was a little faster.
 

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That many changes won’t happen it is more than a winnable game will put our best side in & the side that played yesterday isn’t far off it.

People talking about dropping Parker,Paton,D Mac tell them their dreaming.

Our issue is forward of centre conversion goes a long way.

Amazing all the Dunstan haters gone underground.

Worst forward Bruce do we drop him no but no ones singling him out.


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What concerns me is not necessarily that we have better or worse players than our opposition, it is the question of whether we have - and whether we are able to - maximise the potential of our young players inside their first 50 games.

Most of our players have played between 0-100 games, many are still at a stage we should consider formative; their equivalents in other teams seem to be developing better.

Is that because they were better players to begin with?
Is it because they are in stronger teams, giving them less pressure and the ability to learn their chops with a solid structure around them?
Is it because we have not been, until the pre-season just past, demanding enough in terms of standards and effort in training?
Is it because we just have or had the wrong coaches or outdated coaches?
Is it because of our poor 2nds team situation and our selection strategy?
Is it simply because the team is losing?

I remarked last year that Nick Coffield, then a first year player, seemed very upset after each loss, whereas the older more experienced Saints around him seemed to just casually brush it off. I despaired that after some time he himself would develop a cavalier reaction to failure and stagnation after some time in this environment. Has this come to be? (just to be clear, I'm usuing Coff as an example, not specifically targetting him; are our young players being conditioned to stagnate and expect mediocre results?)

Oh for the days when our young players had Rob Harvey, Stewie Loewe, Max Hudgeton, Nathan Burke, Lenny Hayes, etc to play next to and train next to and feed off.

I am really hoping our new coaching team has a vision for the long term.

Change is already happening but I wish it was a little faster.
It’s interesting you mention Harvey and Burke. It was their pact to not accept crap anymore that really turned us around in the late 80’s.
 

Saintbloke

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Disagree.

Players have been giving effort.

Difference is the quality of opposition. We were in it for 3/4 on Saturday, but the cream rose to the top.

That's a talent issue.

But if you have it ingrained that everything is the coach's fault then logic ain't gonna cut it.
It's an easy out to let a coach off the hook, although we may not have premium talent, that last quarter could have gone a lot better with a better team effort. If a coach cant get a group players playing like a team, then he isn't really doing a good job- and he has had more than enough opportunity.
 
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