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I enjoyed the Swans game, i had Mills in supercoach lmao
Roast State of the modern game; Clarkson
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The AFL isn't instructing 36 players to follow within 50m of the ball, irrespective of the location on the ground. The AFL isn't telling all 18 players to rush behind the ball to kill off any hope of attack. These tactics are the result of coaches instructions and the AFL has no current rule to stop it.
It won't evolve. Its devolving into a low scoring stalemate infront of our very eyes
100% this. Can someone start a thread on this to get some attention?
its so stupid seeing someone try to get it out and then someone else holding the ball to them
Hawthorn were a high scoring team, but instead of teams copying them they studied extensively devising a gameplan to stifle them, but did not work! It is wrong to suggest it is copy cat industry when we all know it is much easier to defend, and make no mistake coaches will find a way to stop Richmonds chaos footy.
Na, didn’t you hear Dimma they were playing all out offence, it’s completely the opposition teams to the Tigers
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Blues just cracked the ton.
Hawks can't even get half way
Hawks can't even get half way
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Just to put the state of the game in perspective, an NRL game played yesterday produced an aggregate score of 80 points – more than Richmond vs Sydney scored between them today (60 points).
And the Carlton Bulldogs game had over 150 points...are we just going to ignore that? There's always going to be bad games no matter what rules are in place.
Footy has gotten more and more defensive with the invention of zones and spare men plugging up defences and proving problematic for players kicking inside 50 and forwards trying to find space to lead to. But it's never been this bad. I'm convinced 16 minute quarters are having a massive impact for a few reasons.
Firstly up until last week at least if you led by 7 or more at quarter time this season you went on to win the game. Coaches are scared of a bad patch of footy costing them the game. That's reality in my opinion. It's a shortened season as well so each win means a great deal more. It's very easy for coaches to throw players behind the ball right now. Making the game ugly dries up scoring badly and makes winning the game a matter of having a good patch of footy towards the end of the game. In a game like the Richmond Sydney one Richmond would typically wear down the Swans with the constant pressure and barrage of inside 50 entries. With almost an entire quarter less teams players aren't running out of gas as much. They've got far more energy to be defensive I think.
Firstly up until last week at least if you led by 7 or more at quarter time this season you went on to win the game. Coaches are scared of a bad patch of footy costing them the game. That's reality in my opinion. It's a shortened season as well so each win means a great deal more. It's very easy for coaches to throw players behind the ball right now. Making the game ugly dries up scoring badly and makes winning the game a matter of having a good patch of footy towards the end of the game. In a game like the Richmond Sydney one Richmond would typically wear down the Swans with the constant pressure and barrage of inside 50 entries. With almost an entire quarter less teams players aren't running out of gas as much. They've got far more energy to be defensive I think.
Agreed. Holding the ball has gone completely downhill, particularly in the last 10-15 years. Prior opportunity and making a genuine attempt have turned tackling into a ridiculous game of cat and mouse between the tackler and ball carrier versus the umpire. As someone who plays footy there is absolutely zero incentive for a tackler to help get the ball out (except for up forward). You want to pin the ball onto the guy being tackled and hope he has dived on it or has appeared to or doesn't make an "attempt" to dispose of the footy. Tacklers are getting rewarded for tackling blokes first to the footy who haven't had a chance to do anything with the footy. Yes at AFL level players are capable of disposing quickly, but in many congested situations both ball carrier and tackler are happy to have it held to them, one making a pathetically stupid attempt to get rid of it which we all know isn't genuine and the tackler doing their best to hold the ball and arms in.
This garbage goes on all game. I don't know if it's going to solve heaps of problems but it would at least clear up the number of stoppages surely if umpires used a bit of common sense as to whether the player has been caught or simply had no time or space to get rid of the footy. If a player blatantly dives on the footy, holds it in then yeah holding the ball. But so many decisions go against ball carriers when they have had the misfortune of the ball bouncing their way while someone's hot on their hammer. Tackler gets them, holds the footy to them if they don't knock it out and we spend 5-10 seconds waiting for the umpire to make a decision. It slows the game down.
halalsnackpack
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The bonus point for kicking 100 is probably the best way to improve it as it directly incentivises kicking goals. Any other rule changes will be quickly adapted to by the coaches and not necessarily achieve the intended result. You'd have to have the roof open for all Marvel games though to make it fair - would this be accepted?
I'm going to take a deep breath here, and basically disagree with mostly everyone in this thread.
Firstly, the very people that you're frustrated with - coaches and the AFL - are the very people you're emulating with even more knee jerk suggestions. We can't keep changing every single rule just to 'make the game look better', it's not sustainable. You're always going to have a Lyon, Longmire, Malthouse at Carlton etc. who are going to play a 'boring' style of game that ruins the aesthetic for casual viewers. I find it hilarious that people don't even remember the days of local parks like Victoria, Princes, Waverley etc., that had players rolling around in mud basically. I'm only 31, and I can still remember how awful some of those games were.
Secondly, it's always a coach who will change the 'mould' and no amount of intervention can stop that. 2005 and 2006, brought us two very close but two god awful Grand Finals, between the Eagles and the Swans - in perfect conditions. Enter Geelong 2007, and the switch flicks after an awful loss to North, where we go on and score over 200 points in some games, due to a frenetic play on at all costs gamestyle. Then, enter Clarkson in 2008, who basically employs a 'rush behind at all costs' Grand Final', which damages the look of the game (our fault we couldn't kick for s**t either). This is followed by Lyon at the Saints, and then a supercharged Lyon at Freo. You then have Longmire in 2012, but you then have Clarkson reinventing his side and winning 3 flags on the back of precision kicking, crafty goal kickers and a very solid defence and midfield. You have 11 of the best matches you'll see, between Geelong and Hawthorn - 2008 - 2013 - where most matches are decided by under 10 points, with high scoring and an exciting contest. Enter 2016 - 2019, and you have the Dogs with their quick handball and brutal tackling game, the Tigers with their 'tap on' and 'surge' play that breaks through settled defences due to the uncertainty, and the Eagles with their precise kicking/high scoring ala Clarkson, gameplan. Port are currently playing the most 'attractive' footy, and they're a game clear on top of the ladder. Point being - the majority of attacking sides have won Grand Finals the last 10 years, not defensive ones.
Thirdly, Beveridge was correct when he said 'the AFL flinched.' Coaches say crap all the time when they're pissed off after a loss - it's human nature. It's up to the AFL and the umpiring department to adjudicate based on the rules, not on a whim dictated by a coach who feels hard done by because of decisions that went against him. Look at Carlton last night, could not buy a free kick but still doubled the Bulldogs score. As we saw with the Melbourne and GC game, umpires get over their 'rule of the week's very quickly, and then move on to something else. What they should be doing, is making the system simpler to adjudicate - not changing the rules themselves. This brings me to my 4th point:
Prior opportunity is a f*cking dog's breakfast, and is subject to the whims and moods of each individual umpire. The only way to fix this, is to simplify the definition. If the player has the ball and drops the ball, that's incorrect disposal. If the player is immediately tackled and can't dispose of the ball, then it's a ball up. Diving on a ball seems to be some invented BS, that constitutes holding the ball, because a player 'dragged it in.' This is garbage. The only reason a player 'drags it in', is because he wants the ball more and is trying to stop the oppo player getting it. There's too much grey area around rules, and this is the one rule that causes so much consternation amongst the AFL fraternity. Protected area is a joke too, but it's so random and inexplicable, that it's not worth wasting time on it when it's not the biggest issue right now.
Lastly, I think we all need to take a deep breath and realize there are some severe differences in this season right now -
- It's wet and it's winter, something that usually only happens during the middle of the season, not the start
- The only grounds games are being played on, are glorified slosh buckets that are not conducive to quick ball movement and free-floating gameplay. 2/3rd's of games are usually played at Marvel and the MCG - both state of the art grounds that usually feature either blockbuster games (MCG) or at least one speedy team (Marvel)
- The games are 16 minutes shorter so scoring should be 20% less. Average of a half decent game is usually around 75-90 for the winning team in previous years, so average of a decent game should be 60-72 this year. This round, Geelong kicked 73 (87.6 adjusted), Freo kicked 79 (94.8 adj), Collingwood kicked 59 (70.8 adj), Melbourne kicked 80 (96 adj), Eagles kicked 67 (80.9 adj), Essendon kicked 67 (80.9 adj), Port kicked 63 (75.6 adj), and Carlton finished off with a whopping 103 (123.6 adj). Considering the weather conditions, this was actually a decent scoring round - all of the above considered.
- There are no crowds, so there is nowhere near as much energy propelling sides on when they get a run on. Crowds play a big part, and without them it is pretty much just silence on the field, where they have to manufacture their own energy. Means that teams who get in front don't have the same motivation, and teams trying to come from behind don't have the lift that a cheer squad or some vocal encouragement might give them
***************************************
As other coaches and media personalities have said, I think we really need to take a deep breath and look at things on a longer time scale, than 6 weeks in a heavily compromised year. Let whatever happens, happen this year, and then revisit things in 2021.
Anyway, teams 'll probably be so exhausted from playing every 4 days, that they won't even be able to get back and 'flood' defences, so the game will probably open up a bit more on the back of that, haha.
I for one, in all honesty, enjoyed the Freo, Melbourne, Geelong, Carlton games, thoroughly. That 3rd quarter by the Cats was blistering and so reminiscent of our heyday, and the Freo fightback against St Kilda was one of the great wins of the decade. Izak Rankine was a joy to behold, and Eddie put on a clinic for the Blues.
It's not all doom and gloom, I think a few of you just need to start seeing the forest for the trees. Some games will always be s**t, but the comp as a whole is evolving, as newly drilled sides like Saints, Brissie, Port, Carlton and GC, take the torch from the stalwarts such as us, Hawthorn, Sydney and Collingwood. Enjoy the evolution and the changing of the guard. Once those new teams get even more comfortable with their gameplan, the game will shift again and you guy's 'll probably forget all about this miniscule downturn.
Just my two cents
Firstly, the very people that you're frustrated with - coaches and the AFL - are the very people you're emulating with even more knee jerk suggestions. We can't keep changing every single rule just to 'make the game look better', it's not sustainable. You're always going to have a Lyon, Longmire, Malthouse at Carlton etc. who are going to play a 'boring' style of game that ruins the aesthetic for casual viewers. I find it hilarious that people don't even remember the days of local parks like Victoria, Princes, Waverley etc., that had players rolling around in mud basically. I'm only 31, and I can still remember how awful some of those games were.
Secondly, it's always a coach who will change the 'mould' and no amount of intervention can stop that. 2005 and 2006, brought us two very close but two god awful Grand Finals, between the Eagles and the Swans - in perfect conditions. Enter Geelong 2007, and the switch flicks after an awful loss to North, where we go on and score over 200 points in some games, due to a frenetic play on at all costs gamestyle. Then, enter Clarkson in 2008, who basically employs a 'rush behind at all costs' Grand Final', which damages the look of the game (our fault we couldn't kick for s**t either). This is followed by Lyon at the Saints, and then a supercharged Lyon at Freo. You then have Longmire in 2012, but you then have Clarkson reinventing his side and winning 3 flags on the back of precision kicking, crafty goal kickers and a very solid defence and midfield. You have 11 of the best matches you'll see, between Geelong and Hawthorn - 2008 - 2013 - where most matches are decided by under 10 points, with high scoring and an exciting contest. Enter 2016 - 2019, and you have the Dogs with their quick handball and brutal tackling game, the Tigers with their 'tap on' and 'surge' play that breaks through settled defences due to the uncertainty, and the Eagles with their precise kicking/high scoring ala Clarkson, gameplan. Port are currently playing the most 'attractive' footy, and they're a game clear on top of the ladder. Point being - the majority of attacking sides have won Grand Finals the last 10 years, not defensive ones.
Thirdly, Beveridge was correct when he said 'the AFL flinched.' Coaches say crap all the time when they're pissed off after a loss - it's human nature. It's up to the AFL and the umpiring department to adjudicate based on the rules, not on a whim dictated by a coach who feels hard done by because of decisions that went against him. Look at Carlton last night, could not buy a free kick but still doubled the Bulldogs score. As we saw with the Melbourne and GC game, umpires get over their 'rule of the week's very quickly, and then move on to something else. What they should be doing, is making the system simpler to adjudicate - not changing the rules themselves. This brings me to my 4th point:
Prior opportunity is a f*cking dog's breakfast, and is subject to the whims and moods of each individual umpire. The only way to fix this, is to simplify the definition. If the player has the ball and drops the ball, that's incorrect disposal. If the player is immediately tackled and can't dispose of the ball, then it's a ball up. Diving on a ball seems to be some invented BS, that constitutes holding the ball, because a player 'dragged it in.' This is garbage. The only reason a player 'drags it in', is because he wants the ball more and is trying to stop the oppo player getting it. There's too much grey area around rules, and this is the one rule that causes so much consternation amongst the AFL fraternity. Protected area is a joke too, but it's so random and inexplicable, that it's not worth wasting time on it when it's not the biggest issue right now.
Lastly, I think we all need to take a deep breath and realize there are some severe differences in this season right now -
- It's wet and it's winter, something that usually only happens during the middle of the season, not the start
- The only grounds games are being played on, are glorified slosh buckets that are not conducive to quick ball movement and free-floating gameplay. 2/3rd's of games are usually played at Marvel and the MCG - both state of the art grounds that usually feature either blockbuster games (MCG) or at least one speedy team (Marvel)
- The games are 16 minutes shorter so scoring should be 20% less. Average of a half decent game is usually around 75-90 for the winning team in previous years, so average of a decent game should be 60-72 this year. This round, Geelong kicked 73 (87.6 adjusted), Freo kicked 79 (94.8 adj), Collingwood kicked 59 (70.8 adj), Melbourne kicked 80 (96 adj), Eagles kicked 67 (80.9 adj), Essendon kicked 67 (80.9 adj), Port kicked 63 (75.6 adj), and Carlton finished off with a whopping 103 (123.6 adj). Considering the weather conditions, this was actually a decent scoring round - all of the above considered.
- There are no crowds, so there is nowhere near as much energy propelling sides on when they get a run on. Crowds play a big part, and without them it is pretty much just silence on the field, where they have to manufacture their own energy. Means that teams who get in front don't have the same motivation, and teams trying to come from behind don't have the lift that a cheer squad or some vocal encouragement might give them
***************************************
As other coaches and media personalities have said, I think we really need to take a deep breath and look at things on a longer time scale, than 6 weeks in a heavily compromised year. Let whatever happens, happen this year, and then revisit things in 2021.
Anyway, teams 'll probably be so exhausted from playing every 4 days, that they won't even be able to get back and 'flood' defences, so the game will probably open up a bit more on the back of that, haha.
I for one, in all honesty, enjoyed the Freo, Melbourne, Geelong, Carlton games, thoroughly. That 3rd quarter by the Cats was blistering and so reminiscent of our heyday, and the Freo fightback against St Kilda was one of the great wins of the decade. Izak Rankine was a joy to behold, and Eddie put on a clinic for the Blues.
It's not all doom and gloom, I think a few of you just need to start seeing the forest for the trees. Some games will always be s**t, but the comp as a whole is evolving, as newly drilled sides like Saints, Brissie, Port, Carlton and GC, take the torch from the stalwarts such as us, Hawthorn, Sydney and Collingwood. Enjoy the evolution and the changing of the guard. Once those new teams get even more comfortable with their gameplan, the game will shift again and you guy's 'll probably forget all about this miniscule downturn.
Just my two cents
- Jul 15, 2014
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I don't think what Carlton scored should be amazingly high. It should be a regular occurrence. Yet we haven't seen a score that high since Round 2. That's the issue
shaqsuns
Club Legend
I’m glad the AFL looks s***. They should of changed the game but getting rid of rotations 12 years ago when Mick Malthouse decided to copy ice hockey and utilize the interchange to set up defensive structures that the attacking teams couldn’t get through.
I feel sorry for the kids today who have grown up with this spectacle of football ( even though they defend the game saying it’s never been better). I remember as a kid following Gary Ablett snr from one end of the ground to the other because key forwards were king and 100 goal season were the norm. Today the kids get to watch High Greenwood make 8 tackles a game or Clayton Oliver get 20 handballs, How exciting.
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I feel sorry for the kids today who have grown up with this spectacle of football ( even though they defend the game saying it’s never been better). I remember as a kid following Gary Ablett snr from one end of the ground to the other because key forwards were king and 100 goal season were the norm. Today the kids get to watch High Greenwood make 8 tackles a game or Clayton Oliver get 20 handballs, How exciting.
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L_W_P
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It's crazy how quickly it changed. You can go back just 15 years and watch Gehrig, Fevola, Buddy and Lloyd kick bags week after week.
I wonder how much of it is over analysis of statistics?
Take Lyon for example; Yes, he was a defensive coach but that 2009 Saints team had 11 wins by 5 goals or more, a lowest score of 60 points in the Prelim and 18 games scoring 90 points or more with 12 of those over 100.
They were a high scoring team.
But the media talk and statistical highlights were on the historically low scores we were keeping the opposition to.
I actually think that the 24/7 discussion of the game, combined with access to things like 'pressure acts' and 100 other fairly erroneous statistics has put intense scrutiny on coaches to 'play it safe' and mitigate losses rather than gunning for big wins.
TL;DR - It's David King's fault.
I wonder how much of it is over analysis of statistics?
Take Lyon for example; Yes, he was a defensive coach but that 2009 Saints team had 11 wins by 5 goals or more, a lowest score of 60 points in the Prelim and 18 games scoring 90 points or more with 12 of those over 100.
They were a high scoring team.
But the media talk and statistical highlights were on the historically low scores we were keeping the opposition to.
I actually think that the 24/7 discussion of the game, combined with access to things like 'pressure acts' and 100 other fairly erroneous statistics has put intense scrutiny on coaches to 'play it safe' and mitigate losses rather than gunning for big wins.
TL;DR - It's David King's fault.
I agree. It’s by far the best way to do it.
Im not sure there is evidence that it is easier to score at Marvel though is there? There’s a case that the good conditions help, but you could say the same for the width of the MCG, the weather being generally warmer in Perth/Qld, etc.
I thought it was strange Hardwick complained. It’s his teams game style - slamming the ball forward, then pressing hard with small tackling forwards- that created that game yesterday. The best way to compete is to push number behind the ball and try to rebound. Sydney clearly able to execute the game plan but not rebound the ball, and Richmond just unable to adjust. That’s on him as much as Longmire...
L_W_P
@peteplatinum on Instagram
Hard 'no' on the bonus point.
Some teams might open up a bit more but I think it's more likely that middle/poor teams will just lock down tighter in order to deny the bonus point.
Some teams might open up a bit more but I think it's more likely that middle/poor teams will just lock down tighter in order to deny the bonus point.
Has anyone mentioned that footy may be benefiting from a lull in new releases on the streaming services?
The AFL sort of have the best of both worlds - they've returned (and now have the extra benefit of a second lockdown in the key footy state), while we're seeing the effects of the shutdown in TV production in the US from earlier this year.
Home entertainment options are probably more limited now than they were in April.
The AFL sort of have the best of both worlds - they've returned (and now have the extra benefit of a second lockdown in the key footy state), while we're seeing the effects of the shutdown in TV production in the US from earlier this year.
Home entertainment options are probably more limited now than they were in April.
Can't believe he had a whinge rather than actually doing the only thing he does (and should) have control over - making the Hawks player more open attractive footy. They have been appalling the last two weeks but yeah, it's somebody else's fault.
That's **** poor from a "statesman". Set the example.
That's **** poor from a "statesman". Set the example.
Good Post.
I have to disagree with the idea that the guy diving on the ball' wants it more'. This was what the Swans bought to the game in the early 2000's. If they couldn't get clean possession they would jump on it, ball up, rinse and repeat. It was the reason the rule was eventually changed and it is one of the clearer rules. Drag it in, you're cooked. Simple.
The only thing I'd like to see changed is when the 'tackler' drags the ball under his opponent and the umpire comes in and says "no, you dragged it under him, ball up". Penalise the tackler for dragging it in!
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