Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

[SickQwon]

Now who's missing the point.
You're bloody right Strange Cat echo chamber in here.

You're right, there maybe be a veeeerrrry slim chance a club wouldn't take the best 18 year old in Australia and pick something like a needs-player. Managers would get crucified if they did. More so if the needs-player didn't turn out any good.

Oliver was a risky pick at the time and im happy for the Dees it's worked out for them.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

You're right, there maybe be a veeeerrrry slim chance a club wouldn't take the best 18 year old in Australia and pick something like a needs-player. Managers would get crucified if they did. More so if the needs-player didn't turn out any good.

Oliver was a risky pick at the time and im happy for the Dees it's worked out for them.

The football media once had Tom Boyd as the best in his year.
You're still missing the point, making the claim he was the "consensus no.1" and as such 18 clubs would pick him is pure unfounded pish.

"Every team would have drafted Weitering number 1."
Let's stick to facts from now I think.

 

[SickQwon]

The football media once had Tom Boyd as the best in his year.
You're still missing the point, making the claim he was the "consensus no.1" and as such 18 clubs would pick him is pure unfounded pish.

"Every team would have drafted Weitering number 1."
Let's stick to facts from now I think.

Pretty sure you quoted the wrong person because I've never said that. But yeah okay.

Weitering was clear-cut the best and most consistent 18 year old in the country but it's widely rumoured that Brisbane still would've taken Schache at pick 1 because of the Brisbane connection in his family.

I think people are right to assume that the top pick should go to the best available. But obviously there are variables that other clubs would factor if they are in a position where they wouldn't require that type of player. Some teams have different priorities when evaluating who they're drafting.

Even Carlton are rumoured to pass on Jack 'The next Riewoldt' Lukocious because of flight risk.

Overall, I say your initial comment is pretty pedantic, obviously the poster meant 'every team in Carlton's position would've drafted Weitering at pick 1'.
I'm sorry you didn't interpreted it like that.

 

[La Dispute]

I have done no such thing. Just because some bash him doesn't mean everyone does.
I merely called out a flaw in your argument, you're making a claim you cannot back up nor be proven wrong. Complete pish argument to make the Weitering case seem stronger. You have SFA idea what 17 other list managers would have done with that pick.

This might be true but if you asked each to submit their preference for Pick 1 that year how many would take Weitering? Look at each Phantom draft throughout that year to give you some indication of how highly rated he was that year. I think Knightmare had him as first pick as early as April or May.

Some might have taken Schache, maybe a very small portion would have taken Mills, or Francis or even Parish but by and large Weitering was seen as the best option as first selection.

But to completely rebuff what you’re saying Oliver was told by Essendon he was going to be taken Pick 5 and Melbourne, who hadn’t shown the same level of interest, pounced at Pick 4.

The bloke was a genuine draft bolter, but he was never in the frame for Pick 1.

 

[Blue1980]

Fasolo!? GWS reserves to Pies reserves.
The bloke can’t get a game at the pies with their injury list and Carlton want him. Will just be another bloke to clog the list and not take them where they need to go.

We currently have these guys on our list:

O’Shea
Wright
Mullet
Shaw
Lobbe
Lamb
Kerridge
Rowe
Garlett
Graham
Casboult

Now we obviously can’t get rid of all of them, but surely would be better than at least 75% of those guys.

If we get him as a free agent on 300k a year, what’s the problem? If it doesn’t work we don’t lose much.

 

[Blue1980]

This talk saying we stuffed up Weitering at pick 1 is kind of absurd.

He will at worst be a very solid and dependable KPP. I think he will end up as one of the best KPPs of his era.

Also McKay has shown good signs as well.

Some poster said we needed mids as we needed to be competitive straight away. Why? Our last build we did it like that and got the mids first then had to scrounge KPPs from other random sources and we never got the full jigsaw puzzle (terrible drafting once we were half decent didn’t help)

 

[Vintage]

Well yeah, i'm just some guy in the itnernet. So i can't prove it. But whatever, go ahead and think i'm just making up my approach to the draft.

Yes you can, just give us the link to your comments in the phantom draft thread

 

[watchdog1987]

I don't have a problem with it. He'll come as a free agent and cost us nothing but cap space, of which we have plenty.

Is he an upgrade on what we've currently got? If so, there's very little downside to bringing him in for a couple of years.

To answer my question I'll give you a hint - we're currently playing Nick Graham as a lead-up small forward.

Just because a player “costs you nothing” doesn’t mean you should get him. That’s called list clogging.

That’s the reason you have a array of players from other clubs who are having virtually zero
Impact.

 

[Rich01]

Is he an upgrade on what we've currently got? If so, there's very little downside to bringing him in for a couple of years.

To answer my question I'll give you a hint - we're currently playing Nick Graham as a lead-up small forward.

He’s definely better than Nick Graham as a small lead up forward. And delisting Billy Gowers has shown Bolton struggles to develop his own players in that position.

Worth a shot.

 

[watchdog1987]

We currently have these guys on our list:

O’Shea
Wright
Mullet
Shaw
Lobbe
Lamb
Kerridge
Rowe
Garlett
Graham
Casboult

Now we obviously can’t get rid of all of them, but surely would be better than at least 75% of those guys.

If we get him as a free agent on 300k a year, what’s the problem? If it doesn’t work we don’t lose much.

Yeah we have these guys why not add another list clogger

 

[Damon_3388]

Fasolo!? GWS reserves to Pies reserves.
The bloke can’t get a game at the pies with their injury list and Carlton want him. Will just be another bloke to clog the list and not take them where they need to go.

It's moreso that Fasolo has been injured most of the year himself. Interrupted pre-season, and then re-injuring himself during the year. Has played just 9 VFL games around injury comebacks, and one senior game where he went off early with an injury.

That's the story of his career, too. Whenever it seems like he might be ready to take that next step in output or consistency, he seems to get injured. Not usually a season-ender, but one of those awkward 6-8 week types to the foot or shoulder or something, that still de-rail your year.

He's got enough tricks to be a handy player for the Blues if fit. No reason he can't average around 15 disposals and 1.5 goals per game when up and running (similar to what he did with the Pies 2015-2017), and provide a bit of entertainment along the way. Wouldn't be my first choice for a struggling side, but there's certainly worse players out there.

 

[Gethelred]

He’s definely better than Nick Graham as a small lead up forward. And delisting Billy Gowers has shown Bolton struggles to develop his own players in that position.

Worth a shot.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/ho...l/news-story/1d7f947fc930ecaff2fe751188412860

The article above details his issues at Carlton, and his inability to get out of his own head. Bolton came in for a single season when Gowers was at the club.

The Dogs are/were in a unique situation in which they lacked a supreme quality CHF/FF of genuine key position height, and so had just won a flag off the back of an uncharacteristic finals series by Picken playing as a medium forward, Stringer as another, and Dixon as another. Gowers is a marking forward at 187cm. Had we kept him, his position would've been usurped by one of Kerr, Silvagni, McKay or Curnow, because unlike the Dogs we have players of key position height, and have no need to experiment.

I'm happy for Billy that he's found a new home, and that he's doing well. But Billy's delisting does not immediately entail that Bolton struggles to develop his own players in a high half forward role, and it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that it does.

 

[Rich01]

I'm happy for Billy that he's found a new home, and that he's doing well. But Billy's delisting does not immediately entail that Bolton struggles to develop his own players in a high half forward role, and it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that it does.

Hmmm... so we can’t use hindsight to evaluate SOS draft picks and we can’t use a lack of development from a player at Carlton who has kicked on at another club to review Bolton’s development of the kids.

How can you assess the development and recruitment of the current regime if you don’t use the most obvious tools?

 

[Gethelred]

Hmmm... so we can’t use hindsight to evaluate SOS draft picks and we can’t use a lack of development from a player at Carlton who has kicked on at another club to review Bolton’s development of the kids.

How can you assess the development and recruitment of the current regime if you don’t use the most obvious tools?

How about you wait and see if the kids who have been with Bolts since the beginnings of their AFL careers continue to build and become decent/good footballers, instead of saying 'SOS couldn't select oranges at Woolworths' or "Bolton can't turn a rookie pick into an A grader in his first year at the helm", hmm?

 

[La Dispute]

Did anyone actually see Billy Gowers when he was at Carlton? Lazy, and very poor for long stretches *at VFL level*.

This indicates a problem with the player rather than the system. If the guy himself has said he was unmotivated and not at the required level that’s far more conclusive than our development just wasn’t up to scratch.

Yes the coaches are out there to motivate and unpack the players’ game, but if the player themself has no intrinsic interest in bettering their game the coaches can only do so much.

 

[LordLucifer]

Hmmm... so we can’t use hindsight to evaluate SOS draft picks and we can’t use a lack of development from a player at Carlton who has kicked on at another club to review Bolton’s development of the kids.

How can you assess the development and recruitment of the current regime if you don’t use the most obvious tools?

Gowers did absolutely diddley-squat whilst at Carlton, he wasted his time there and has admitted getting the boot was the wake-up call he needed to work harder second time around.

To suggest that Gowers & Holman getting games elsewhere is an indictment on Carlton's player development is simply farcical.

If that was the case, then I'd be expecting the other 40 names we flung to be at other AFL clubs right now too.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

criticism of the fasolo pick up (if it eventuates) is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. is he an a-grader at his position? no, but he'd be more than a handy pick up for a number of sides, none more so than ours who doesn't have any AFL grade small forwards on the list to compliment our forward half talls.

 

[Rich01]

Gowers did absolutely diddley-squat whilst at Carlton, he wasted his time there and has admitted getting the boot was the wake-up call he needed to work harder second time around.

To suggest that Gowers & Holman getting games elsewhere is an indictment on Carlton's player development is simply farcical.

If that was the case, then I'd be expecting the other 40 names we flung to be at other AFL clubs right now too.

Plenty of questions should be asked about player development at Carlton.

Gowers was one who has kicked on since leaving the system.

You could also say Weitering and Silvagni haven’t progressed as many expected after a good first year in the system.

Time will tell I spose.

 

[Tushay]

This talk saying we stuffed up Weitering at pick 1 is kind of absurd.

He will at worst be a very solid and dependable KPP. I think he will end up as one of the best KPPs of his era.

Also McKay has shown good signs as well.

Some poster said we needed mids as we needed to be competitive straight away. Why? Our last build we did it like that and got the mids first then had to scrounge KPPs from other random sources and we never got the full jigsaw puzzle (terrible drafting once we were half decent didn’t help)

There's a lot of BS narrative that goes on when a club is rebuilding. Weitering is copping it at the moment.

Stories you won't read until 2021:

"How 12 clubs missed Patrick Cripps".

"Tigers regret picking Lennon over Cripps."

People rushing to judge a 21 year old key position player whose stats are as strong as any of the best young key position defenders over the last 15 years despite being in a very ordinary team.

 

[Tushay]

Hmmm... so we can’t use hindsight to evaluate SOS draft picks and we can’t use a lack of development from a player at Carlton who has kicked on at another club to review Bolton’s development of the kids.

How can you assess the development and recruitment of the current regime if you don’t use the most obvious tools?

There are some pretty obvious tools in this discussion.

 

[cfc4life]

Are you sure you're not just judging this with a Carlton hat on? Because to me this looks pretty average.

You used Pick 1 on a KPD! I don't care what the "consensus" was, you don't pick a KPD with Pick 1. KPD is the easiest place to pick up a solid player, and it's generally a failed forward. Even Rance, who Weitering can only hope to be anywhere near as good as (and certainly hasn't shown signs of it yet), went at Pick 18. Pick 1 should be for either a Key Forward (statistically the hardest position to recruit) or an EXCEPTIONAL midfielder. This was a wasted pick.

Then Harry McKay at 10, you seem happy with, but again, he's only just playing now and he's an unknown quantity. He's certainly shown nothing exceptional yet.

So your two top 10 picks are looking pretty average. These should be the guys you build your future around. With the position Carlton was in, SOS should have been recruiting sure things, not "hope they come good" "potential" players. You guys needed an engine room, and he gave you potential. If you had been a team topping up with a few players you were missing, then maybe these might have been the right calls, but you can't just look in isolation. You guys are getting smashed because you need a midfield. You could have one, but SOS has consistently picked talls and skinny kids with potential, not ready-to-go mids.

He nailed Curnow, but again, instead of picking a sure thing in the engine room, he picked another key position player. It could just have easily been a bust.

While in isolation, it's fine to say "these guys could play 200 games", the problem is without a quality midfield, they're going to lose 190 of them, because SOS has not recruited a midfield!

No. I would have drafted for need, and gone for midfielders at 1 and 10.

Oliver and then Gresham. It wasn't the best year for mids. I'd have been tempted by Rioli on ability, but probably would have passed for a more solid player in Gresham.

No, you recruit solid players, and buy cream. Draft good mids, get talented rookies and cheapies for the backline, and get the chequebook out for a key forward. Keys take years to develop, and you guys needed a team ready to go.

Can we stop with the "consensus pick" argument. It's terrible. Who cares what the draft pundits said was the best? Who are the best KPDs in the comp? Rance - Pick 18. MacGovern - Pick 73 or something, Lever - Pick 14... One of our board mods did an analysis of picks, and basically the hardest position to get a great player is a key forward, then great mids, and way down the list are key defenders and half-back flankers.

Now sure, if you were someone like Geelong, and your midfield is already stacked, then a KPD might be OK, becuase it's the missing piece. But you were not in that situation, you needed to basic building blocks.

Pick one is not just the best player, it's the best player YOU NEED. Weitering was not that pick for you guys a that time.

Nope. I didn't rate Weitering or Schache, and Mills was an academy pick.

So let's break this down, contradiction by contradiction.

1. You say that we need to pick a key forward with a top pick because they're the hardest to draft. You then go on to say you don't draft forwards, you break out the chequebook for them.

2. We then pick up A KEY FORWARD with pick 10, who is only 20 years old right now and has kicked 18 goals from 11 games in his second season (a back injury wiped out 2016). Yet this isn't a good choice? Okay.

3. You say these are the guys we should build our future around. That is exactly why we took Weiters, McKay and Charlie. That's a spine for the next ten years and they are beginning to show why.

4. You say that SOS nailed Curnow but then you try and find a way to spin it into a negative by saying we didn't recruit a mid at that pick? Who was available I might ask? And would they have been a better pick then Charlie Curnow? Don't think so. But don't let a positive for Carlton get in the way of your narrative.

5. "skinny kids with potential, no ready to go mids" have you seen Paddy Dow or Zac Fisher or SPS at any point this season by any chance? They are already showing their skills when they're barely old enough to drink.

6. You then go on to say that 2015 wasn't a good year for mids. So who were we supposed to pick up then?

7. "Who cares what the draft pundits said was the best?" yeah I shouldn't listen to that doctor who's telling me to wear sunscreen. Even if highly fancied draftees don't turn out to be guns, do we have a time machine to fix this?

8. You didn't rate Weitering or Schache which makes you about the only person in the footballing world who didn't think they were worthy of a top five pick at the time.

My point is, you're full of it.

 

[La Dispute]

What’s a more reliable indicator of how highly a player is rated at the time: where they went at the time, or how the players’ careers have panned out since?

Baffling

 

[Blue1980]

Yeah we have these guys why not add another list clogger

We probably won’t be able to replace all of them with 18 year olds that are all guaranteed to be better.

Unless you think it’s better to take a punt on some unknown at pick/ 85,86,87 & 88 than Fasolo

 

[Blue1980]

There's a lot of BS narrative that goes on when a club is rebuilding. Weitering is copping it at the moment.

Stories you won't read until 2021:

"How 12 clubs missed Patrick Cripps".

"Tigers regret picking Lennon over Cripps."

People rushing to judge a 21 year old key position player whose stats are as strong as any of the best young key position defenders over the last 15 years despite being in a very ordinary team.

As soon as a side has some success the narrative changes from the club being incompetent idiots (Richmond 2016), to them doing everything right for the previous decade in some kind genius elaborate plan (Richmond 2017-18)

 

[Blue1980]

What’s a more reliable indicator of how highly a player is rated at the time: where they went at the time, or how the players’ careers have panned out since?

Baffling

Why are people making out Weitering is a bust? Makes no sense.

You would think he’s Luke Livingston or a poor mans Zac Dawson going by some people here