This is NOT our first Premiership

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Svea Rike

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Sep 8, 2001
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Bedford, U.K.
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A brilliant win by the lions. :)

But I'm getting fed up by all these references on the afl
and real footy web sites that this is our first premeirship.:mad:

Its our NINETH!!!! :) :)

If Brisbane and Fitzroy are supposed to have merged
in 1996, then the merged club shares all the attributes
of the two previous clubs. It therefore follows that today
was the lion's nineth premiership, the first one for 57 long
years since our last, and eighth, premiership way back in
1944.

Here's to our nineth premiership!!! :) :)

Well done the lions :) :)
 
Actually (if I may interrupt the premiership board), the Bears and Fitzroy merged to form a new entity.

The new entitiy was called the Brisbane Lions, and that new club would have its own history.

That history began in 1997, and has just completed its 5th year.

You can't literally "combine" two clubs histories. How could you possibly determine head-to-head win-loss record against other clubs, for example?

The Brisbane Lions are a new club that started in 1997, formed from two other clubs.....the Bears and Fitzroy.
 

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Originally posted by Dan25
Actually (if I may interrupt the premiership board), the Bears and Fitzroy merged to form a new entity.

The new entitiy was called the Brisbane Lions, and that new club would have its own history.

That history began in 1997, and has just completed its 5th year.

You can't literally "combine" two clubs histories. How could you possibly determine head-to-head win-loss record against other clubs, for example?

The Brisbane Lions are a new club that started in 1997, formed from two other clubs.....the Bears and Fitzroy.
Click to expand...

Dan 25,

Are you entirely correct on those facts ?

From what I have gleaned from Fitzroy Supporters and the Book "Fitzroy"


The Fitzroy Football Club has never merged with anyone..It still exists, but is currently without an AFL playing license..From what these fine people have told me...It is only some social club that once was connected to the F.F.C. that actually was used by the AFL and Brisbane Bears to tie in the Fitzroy name ..

Is that correct , or am I of beam on that one......?

PA1870
 
Actually Gary I beg to differ on that one.....it is NOT the 9th for the Lions.....it is infact the FIRST for the Lions...........as Fitzroy were not known as the Lions in 1944, when they won their last premiership.......or so I am led to belive.

So technically it is the FIRST PREMIERSHIP FOR THE LIONS........(well under the nickname LIONS anyway, and that is good enough for me!)

And more importantly than anything else.......it is the first premiership for THE BRISBANE LIONS.
 
In the Herald Sun yesterday there was an article with clubs and how many premierships they have won, and it was listed as fitzroy/brisbane Lions - 9 premierships!
 
Re: First not Ninth

Originally posted by garyjb
Sorry you've got it wrong, its the first for flag for Brisbane and the Ninth for the Lions.
Click to expand...

They were actually the Gorillas before they were the Lions, but that was the same club later known as the Lions so it's a fair comment.

Confusion reigns over whether you combine Fitzroys and the Bears' history or just start from 1997. In my opinion I think they should start again, but the direction from the AFL is much responsible for this confusion.

For example, on Brownlow night, Ron Evans in his speech following Akermanis's victory specifically labelled the medal Brisbane's 2nd Brownlow Medal, (needless to say Hayden Bunton's Charlies weren't included). Of course their 1st must have been Voss's 1996 medal which he won while playing for the Bears. Here is the AFL chairman, reading a written speech, it was no slip of the tongue, in front of a considerable audience disregarding Fitzroy's bucketload of Brownlows and recognising the Bear's single medal.

Clearly it is the AFL's agenda for the Brisbane Lions to be a continuation of the Bears history. This comes through in the Official AFL stats and instruction given to the media who point out statistics such as Brisbane's poor Melbourne record which includes the Bears results.

Obviously this drives the old Fitzroy fans nutty and as a supporter of another Victorian club with a proud history, I can understand their frustration. So the logical reaction is for the Fitzroy people is to talk about their history, which unlike their Queensland counterparts, is stooped in tradition, pride, integrity and an underlying love for the club.

This situation creates a conflict among Brisbane Lions supporters who both think their history should be used in the new entity. I think most old 'Roy Boys would be happy for the Brisbane Lions's history to begin in 1997, with the Bears and Fitzroy's history being put aside from the new merged club.

But it is the AFL who have created this conflict and the direction must come from them in order to end this confusion and occassion bitter conflict among fans who are supposedly supporting the same club.

Get it right, Jacko.
 
I think it depends on how YOU want to see it. Go to the Brisbane offices, and they have pictures and past players of Fitzroy there on their office walls. Two teams merged to become the Brisbane lions (Trading as the Brisbane Fitzroy football club (I think) )

In my own view, they are Brisbane - Fitzroy and they merged with Fitzroy players, history and men from the old Fitzroy boards.

Regardless, this is Brisbanes Lions first premiership, but Brisbane bears 1st and Fitzroys 9th. I congratulate both Brisbane and Fitzroy for the premiership that both clubs share!

I am sure former roy boys as Lynch, Johnson and Pike played with their hearts for Fitzroy and Brisbane.
 

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Back to the Future

Red Rover,

Well said - remember this is a unique situation that always needs to be handled with some sensitivity as shallow and stupid comments can really inflame and hurt.

I think it can be said that the support the team received in Melbourne during the last few days really assisted them in fulfilling their potential and destiny. Melbournians don't spontaneously abandon their own clubs and don the jumper because they have had Essendon overload. The support is there - and its roots have their origin at Brunswick St. This gives the Lions a huge advantage - as Matthews said we have two home towns - above any draft options and concessions. We can dip back into the past and be sustained and inspired by the deeds of those gone before. They'll never walk alone.

Without doubt, the turning point this year was the Carlton game and the parallel Fitzroy Team of the Century celebrations. At the time I pondered - can Michael Voss look Garry Wilson in the eye as part of a tradition of courage and excellence ? Well, now he ( and all the others ) can and that's the REAL measure. And that tradition grows - were you there at Brunswick St. when Lynchy and Chris raised the Cup and brought tears to the eyes of so many that never thought they'd see the day ? Oh yeah, we were there and my kids haven't stopped kicking the footy since.
 
Originally posted by Goldenblue
I think it depends on how YOU want to see it. Go to the Brisbane offices, and they have pictures and past players of Fitzroy there on their office walls. Two teams merged to become the Brisbane lions (Trading as the Brisbane Fitzroy football club (I think) )

In my own view, they are Brisbane - Fitzroy and they merged with Fitzroy players, history and men from the old Fitzroy boards.

Regardless, this is Brisbanes Lions first premiership, but Brisbane bears 1st and Fitzroys 9th. I congratulate both Brisbane and Fitzroy for the premiership that both clubs share!

I am sure former roy boys as Lynch, Johnson and Pike played with their hearts for Fitzroy and Brisbane.
Click to expand...

Question asked once more...

Is it the Fitzroy football club that was merged with Brisbane ore just a social arm of that club..so the AFL could somehow tenuously tie in the Fitzroy name to the Brisbane Bears and majically absorb a Victorian supporter base that really didnt barrack for Fitzroy Football club...just the social club and the logo... ??

This basically a question not a statement...

PA1870
 
Roylion where are you when we need you??? I am not in any state to try and respond to this, but what the heck I will give it a go.

Social Club arm?????

FFC limited is still a licensed business entity. BUT they have NO football operations. They SPONSOR the Fitzroy reds, but they don't actually run them.

Brisbane Lions was formed from a merger of the Football Operations department of the Fitzroy Football Club and the Brisbane Bears. Part of the merger included the AFL football license to field a team, the jumper, the history, the song, the 'name' (ie Lions) etc.

I really don't understand what you mean by Social Club arm tho, cause that is the one thing that didn't happen. There was a legal battle over a 'social club' which the Brisbane Lions lost tho.
 
Personally, for me, the Brisbane Lions began as of 1997.

We have been in the competition for 5 seasons. This is our first premiership.

Just as the Premiership for the Fitzroy Reds, is not part of the Fitzroy records - but part of Fitzroy, the club.

For me personally, the Brisbane Lions, Fitzroy, the Fitzroy Reds, are all part of the same family for me. They all have tangible links (despite what some "experts" would claim :rolleyes: ). I don't expect everyone to feel the same - however, it's certainly how I feel. However, it's impossible really, to somehow combine all of these club records into one, in a way that is fair to all parties concerned.

Personally, I am more than to use the method in which the club, the Brisbane Lions themselves use. This is:

Neither the Bears, nor Fitzroy records are included as part of the Brisbane Lions, although, they are certainly given due repsect, and recognition as being an important part of the club's history, for both pre-merger partners.

The only exception to this, is to players from either Fitzroy or the Bears who continued to play for the Brisbane Lions, after the merger (ie: C.Johnson and M.Ashcroft, respectively, as examples). These players have ALL of their games recorded as Brisbane Lions games, although, some of them are also recorded as Fitzroy/Bears games.

Funnily enough, A.Lynch has all of his games recorded as that of the Brisbane Lions!!! And Martin Pike's games for Fitzroy in '95 and '96 are also counted in his Brisbane Lions tally (as well as being Fitzroy games)!

IMO, this is BY FAR, the best way to do things.

The AFL, and the media for that matter, have stuffed it up immeasurably.

Originally, the AFL were in line with the club's view, which was what they agreed to in the merger document. However, some time around 1999, they changed their view on this. After consultation with a handful of self-proclaimed "experts" in the media, the AFL (and media) decided that the Brisbane Lions records would be noted as a continuation of the Brisbane Bears records in all media, and AFL publications.

Luckily, the club have continued their stance against this, with the earlier method being the preferred option. The club has lobbied the AFL about this, but no no avail, at this point. From my information, the club regularly consults the AFL on this particular issue.

Hopefully, the publicity that the club has received over the last week, along with help from the supporters, will serve to change the AFL's opinion on this issue.
 
The "social club arm" I assume, refers to the Fitzroy Football Club Social Club, which was started up AFTER the merger, and kept SEPARATE from the FFC, as the Brisbane Lions still held the debenture over the club, and therefore, associating the two would have left both vulnerable, had the Brisbane Lions pursued the debenture.
 
Originally posted by Port Adelaide 1870


Question asked once more...

Is it the Fitzroy football club that was merged with Brisbane ore just a social arm of that club..so the AFL could somehow tenuously tie in the Fitzroy name to the Brisbane Bears and majically absorb a Victorian supporter base that really didnt barrack for Fitzroy Football club...just the social club and the logo... ??

This basically a question not a statement...

PA1870
Click to expand...

PA1870, The merger agreement states quite clearly that the club operations of the Fitzroy Football Club and the Brisbane Bears Football Club were merged. A dictionary definition of the word 'merger' describes it as "combining of two commercial companies into one" or "embody a title, estate or condition in greater one" or "join and blend gradually". Certainly the last two definitions certainly describe what happened and a reading of the legal document that describes what was to happen certainly confirms this.

Legally the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. and the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. are seperate companies, with their own boards. The Fitzroy one has the same board as they did in 1996. In that respect I suppose, there wans't a merger. The 'Fitzroy Football Club Social Club' was formed after the merger by the Fitzroy Football Club and was done so when relations between Brisbane and Fitzroy were at a very low level. The registered charge (that has now been removed) that Brisbane held over Fitzroy meant that if Fitzroy FC Ltd. started to accumulate assets, they could be claimed by Brisbane at any time. Hence the setting up of another company was done, in the same way that Bondborough was set up to control the Fitzroy Football Club Hotel and stop it falling into the hands of creditors if Fitzroy went under. This is exactly what happened.

I (and many others) believe it was a true merger for the following reasons.

1. Brisbane wears Fitzroy's colours,
2. Brisbane wears the Fitzroy's mascot,
3. Brisbane sings Fitzroy's song, with the word FITZROY in it with phrases from the old Fitzroy song,
4. Brisbane has the same Fitzroy coterie groups "Lion Hunters' etc.,
5. Brisbane has the father-son rule from Fitzroy (e.g Jon Brown), 6. Brisbane has the "Fitzroy-Brisbane Past Players and Officials Association" headed by Fitzroy stalwarts such as Norm Brown, Arthur Edwards, Mick Conlan etc. etc.,
7. Brisbane runs events like the Fitzroy Team of the Century, at which 1,600 seats ranging between $80-$250 each was sold out weeks in advance mostly to Fitzroy fans
8. Former Fitzroy President Leon Weigard is now a patron of Brisbane.
9. Brisbane's Lions Best and Fairest Medal is named the Merrett-MURRAY Medal and that the choice of name for Fitzroy half was chosen by a ballot of Fitzroy members in 1997.
10. Every Fitzroy captain, coach and Brownlow Medallist from 1883 has his photograph and details displayed at the Gabba for all to read.
11. Fitzroy Honour Boards and other memorabilia are displayed at the Brisbane Lions Victorian Social Club
12. Brisbane has in the players rooms all locker numbers have a list of all the Fitzroy players who wore that number.
13. Brisbane has three Victorian directors Laurie Serafini, (one of the Roy's favorite sons) , Tom Reynolds, formerly Fitzroy's No. 1 ticketholder, and Mac Tolliday a longtime Fitzroy supporter.
14. Dyson Hore-Lacy, current President of the Fitzroy Football Club (who has more reason than most to hate Brisbane) stated at a Fitzroy Annual General Meeting in 2000 that Fitzroy fans now have three teams to support, Brisbane Lions, Coburg-Fitzroy (sadly no longer) and the Fitzroy Reds. He also sent a congratulatory good luck message to the Brisbane Lions on the eve of the Grand Final.
15. Life members of Fitzroy are automatically life members of Brisbane.
16. Brisbane has a successful and growing Victorian operation or why the Lions Den at the Manningham is packed out at match time with former Fitzroy fans,
17. Between 10,000-15,000 Victorian Brisbane Lions fans attend Victorian matches, depending on who is playing
18. Brisbane sponsors the Fitzroy Juniors who play at Fitzroy's spiritual home, the Brunswick St. Oval,
19. Chairman Graeme Downie blasted the AFL recently over the shoddy AFL recognition of Fitzroy's records in comparison to the Bears records.
20. The board of the Brisbane Lions wants the name Brisbane to NOT be displayed on AFL scoreboards and wants just LIONS instead.
21.The company that hold Brisbane's AFL Licence is known as the "Brisbane Bears-FITZROY Australian Football Club Ltd."
22. The Brisbane Lions guernsey will have on its back "BB-FFC" from Season 2002 to reflect the origins of the Brisbane Lions.
24. The Brisbane Lions brought the premiership cup back to Brunswick Street to acknowledge their Fitzroy origins and heritage....and fans from the Fitzroy side of the merger.
25. The Fitzroy Reds were acknowledged at the function at Brunswick Street on Sunday and both teams as representatives of the old 'Fitzroy' sent signed messages of good luck to each other before their respective grand finals.

I agree with Olmy. The Brisbane Lions, the Fitzroy Reds, and the Fitzroy Juniors are all part of the larger Fitzroy family. Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. as such has no football operations of it's own. The Fitzroy Reds are merely sponsored by the Fitzroy Football Club, so technically they have much the same relationship to the Fitzroy Football Club as the Brisbane Lions do.

If you regard it as a true merger, then really the Brisbane Lions, as a new entity with a new identity, entered the competition in 1997. This then is their first premiership (not their ninth) and Jason Akermanis is their first Brownlow Medallist, not their second (if a Bear) or alternatively their ninth (if from Fitzroy)

However if you combine all three clubs, then the Brisbane Lions/Brisbane Bears/Fitzroy have nine premierships, and ten Brownlow Medals.

One day hopefully the media will work it out. They appear hopelessly confused over how to report the records. The Brisbane Lions themselves regard the club as having begun in 1997 and to be fair to everybody whether from Fitzroy or the Bears, that's how it should be regarded.
 
Originally posted by Roylion


PA1870, The merger agreement states quite clearly that the club operations of the Fitzroy Football Club and the Brisbane Bears Football Club were merged. A dictionary definition of the word 'merger' describes it as "combining of two commercial companies into one" or "embody a title, estate or condition in greater one" or "join and blend gradually". Certainly the last two definitions certainly describe what happened and a reading of the legal document that describes what was to happen certainly confirms this.

Legally the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. and the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. are seperate companies, with their own boards. The Fitzroy one has the same board as they did in 1996. In that respect I suppose, there wans't a merger.



Ok so the Fitzroy Football Club still exists with its board intact the same as the day it was booted out of the AFL...but if Fitzroy Football club supporters are to be catered for.....All the things listed previously have to be
spackfilled into place and sanded smooth so Fitzroy people actually dont follow the real F.F.C... the one they followed before it was ousted from the AFL, but align themselves to Brisbane...because at AFL level there isnt anything else ?????

Brisbane as a city will never concede to losing the title "Brisbane" on scoreboards will they ?


Personally I would be in a real quandry as it still is quite unclear...it Appears that The F.F.C Imagery is in place at Brisbane..for people to be lured to Brisbane as the real home of the F.F.C. ltd...but in effect all Brisbane houses is the Desires and wishes of former F.F.C. ltd supporters to have a club to follow...i.e. your Board ans club are abandoned to follow the logo as put in place by the AFL and Brisbane to get that very effect ...Is that an appropriate assumption? or is it unequivocally incorrect ?

It does give former Roys fans something to follow now , in as much but is it just a facade for your or the AFLs beneifit ?

PA1870
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Port Adelaide 1870
It does give former Roys fans something to follow now , in as much but is it just a facade for your or the AFLs beneifit ?

PA1870
Click to expand...

Not really, considering that a number of current members of the FFC board of directors are Brisbane Lions members, and the board as a whole has been involved in consultation with the Brisbane Lions, in bringing about initiatives which benefit everyone.

Both entities are clearly working towards common goals, and are becoming closer working partners with every step.
 
Beyond Parochialism

To all parochial SA and WA fans who THRIVE on anti-VIC feelings ... this is a NEW and hopefully brighter world.

Many Lions fans like myself have been lead to follow the Lions team as a result of circumstance and personal choice. Unfortunately , we've probably seen the dark side of 'away' footy over the last few years where passion was seldom roused. Make no mistake .. we've all seen a lot of footy over the years ( that's what we do of a weekend ) so we can tell the real McCoy when it's there and, of course, we will respond appropriately. If you have been following any of the correspondance on this topic, the fires were kindled in 1999 with some fantastic , if ultimately, unsuccessful games V Tigers , North and again in the Prelim. V North. We now know who our new rivals are - those ruff 'n tuff Roos. 2000 provided some disappointment, esp. in the final v Blues but hope sprang eternal. The disaster of 2001 Melbourne start - Tigers, Dogs and then most disasterously Blues - coupled with the thrashing in the Pre Season Final had everyone thinking - Lions at home Lumps away.

But then we first saw it from the couch - V Bombers and then saw it with our eyes and felt it in our footy souls. The stellar game V North and the ultimate - the FIRST win V Pies at the MCG - with ALL the fans there. And the players really responded. A great experience - one that I felt may never have happened again. We know these players and their skills and habits and we wanted to know more - boy, do we know them now. Now the team really are Lions at home ... because they have - eat your hearts out parochial ones - TWO homes. I'm sure you can imagine the advantage that this brings the team.

I must say I was waiting for some bitter 'n twisted type to say - as Victorians, how can you support an interstate club that's stolen the jewell from the crown ? Aren't you traitors or do you just love Qld. that much ?

We are all creatures of the AFL in this regard but we follow the team that shares our passion and responds , and we therefore as footy fans respond likewise. How this translates into Club goings-on, that's the opportubity that those who run that stuff must grasp. They could easily screw in up in a cheap scramble over the spoils of victory - that's their job and we''l see how that goes.

We just love the team - the way they have responded to their Melbourne fans has been sensational - they won the Cup and brought it home. We revel in the triumph of blokes like Brad Scott ( did you see his work on Buckley at the 'G ? ) and Chris Johnson who has totally turned his game around to become a defining player in his position. Love it that Beau's uncle is Gary Sidebottom and Brownie wore his Lions jumper to school and Lynchie FINALLY made it and Jason A. has revealed himself to the footy public as a fantastic natural individual and Vossie's dream came true and Nigel Lappin is the most modest superstar and Leppa is a Cadilac who will just explode next season and Tim Notting is Mr MCG ....

I could go on.
 
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