Thoughts on Australia as a nuclear power?

[madmug]

I wouldn't want us to control the world, just ensure that our little corner of it stays safe and ours. I don't know about leaders always needing to lead. I think great leadership can also consult with others and ask for guidance going forward with especially momentous decisions. Going nuclear-propulsion is a massive step forward in our naval capabilities. It will affect the neighbourhood.

Yes, I'm not bothered about New Zealand's opinions on it.

We'll need to tread lightly with Indonesia & the other SCS rim nations. Specifically Vietnam & Malaysia.

However I'd think they're more bothered by the CCP than us.

 

[Suspense]

Because of this



Taiwan, like Israel, have made themselves indispensible on and to the world market for critical tech. Those who want the sweet flow of tech to continue will ensure the survival of such markets.

At gunpoint if need be.

Well aware of Taiwan's tech. If we are so concerned about eventual hostilities with China, we should be working with self-governed democratic allies to develop our own capabilities in this area - rather than being reliant on a country that is internationally recognised as part of China.

 

[Schneebly11]

And I addressed the thing re India.

And 4chan is nothing like WeChat. WeChat is essentially something like a merger of WhatsApp, Twitter, and Facebook. Again, you're speaking out of your arse

Wouldn’t bother with that one. All they can do is insult others by calling them “woke greens”, even when those supposed “woke greens” are advocating the free market capitalism espoused by mining and energy company CEOs.

 

[Mateyman]

so lets look at that

- we have one of the worst FTA's known to god with the USA, and the last time the issue was raised trump actually INCREASED the use of quotas against our imports. So no idea where we are growing that trade relationship

- Japan is a fantastic relationship, but has been exploited pretty much as much as we can. The areas we want more progress (dairy and beef and rice quotas) are ones we have had minimal progress on in spite of the strength of the relationship (although we have mostly worked around them except for rice)

- UK we have a new agreement, which is frankly pretty meh for us (and most of the wins a long way down the track)


Other than Japan, the UK and USA have f’ed us more often than not on trade, so dont hold your breathe for any favours now

Agriculture in the UK deal is a long way off but seems like a pretty huge win to me.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Agriculture in the UK deal is a long way off but seems like a pretty huge win to me.

its not a great deal, but its better than nothing. That said, we did better out of it than the poms

its the one issue of a rushed deal, and i consider it just a first step (done for political need). I suspect a more comprehensive one, and great for both sides, will come once the brits can take a breathe post brexit integration

to be fair, now is the worst time for them to be putting stuff like this together

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Well aware of Taiwan's tech. If we are so concerned about eventual hostilities with China, we should be working with self-governed democratic allies to develop our own capabilities in this area - rather than being reliant on a country that is internationally recognised as part of China.

Yeah, big fan of becoming self-reliant in as many areas as possible. I know it won't be as cheap, but supply will be a hell of a lot more secure. And employment!

 

[Ohitsthatguy]

Just another stunt by the LNP to win votes and distract from Christian Porter getting his legal fees paid by a blind trust

This country is ruined.

I kinda want LNP shills to present what good this government has done for this country.

But they never do because they know there is literally nothing. The LNP have never offered anything.

 

[HurleyHepsHird]

Looks like it was all just a PR stunt.

Now we have 0 submarines, 2 pissed off allies, one big mad trading partner.

 

[HurleyHepsHird]

Just another stunt by the LNP to win votes and distract from Christian Porter getting his legal fees paid by a blind trust

This country is ruined.

I kinda want LNP shills to present what good this government has done for this country.

But they never do because they know there is literally nothing. The LNP have never offered anything.

Yeah, there's literally no new deal lmao.

They haven't even formed an exploratory committee to figure out how we are going to get new submarines yet.

Literally just hugely damaging stunt to protect one mans electoral chances.

 

[Mateyman]

Just another stunt by the LNP to win votes and distract from Christian Porter getting his legal fees paid by a blind trust

This country is ruined.

I kinda want LNP shills to present what good this government has done for this country.

But they never do because they know there is literally nothing. The LNP have never offered anything.

Every time I ask I get "they won the last election"

 

[Mindtraveller]

Yeah, there's literally no new deal lmao.

They haven't even formed an exploratory committee to figure out how we are going to get new submarines yet.

Literally just hugely damaging stunt to protect one mans electoral chances.

In before that committee comes out with "we should buy some astute (like 4) and as interim"
Isn't that all those expensive review consultants do, pick the obvious?

 

[Gough]

If the government changes at the next election it would be nice to see a photo of senior Labor frontbenchers celebrating the cancellation of this project like we did with the Libs when they canned carbon pricing.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Number of overseas operational military bases by
USA: 800+
China: 3

 

[Schneebly11]

If the government changes at the next election it would be nice to see a photo of senior Labor frontbenchers celebrating the cancellation of this project like we did with the Libs when they canned carbon pricing.

I doubt it, the ALP is 100% in lock step with the Libs/USA on this issue.

A big change for the party which opposed the Iraq War in 2003 to now boasting they’ll be stronger on military and foreign policy than the Libs.

 

[Power Raid]

Looks like it was all just a PR stunt.

Now we have 0 submarines, 2 pissed off allies, one big mad trading partner.

I don't get your logic

Re 0 submarines
1) We currentlyhave our 6 conventional sub, which we can extend the lives on
2) the french sub (if it were technically possible to build) would have been a marginal improvement but lacked modern warfare technologies like laser, drones and AI. Essentially would would have a warfare system more akin to the 1960s O-boats than a modern submarine (lasers, AI and drones)
3) The french subs COULD NEVER be built without nuclear, or inventing a new propulsion system, so we had 0 subs if we maintained the contract
4) We will get 4 Virginia class as interim capability and training for the 5yr and 10yr licensing requirements

Pissed off Allies
The french shouldn't have tendered a nuclear sub and promised conversion to a conventional sub without having a propulsion system. They had to deliver or face reality, as they have, at some stage. They have no cause to winge.

Mad Trading Partner
Why would a trading partner get mad for buying something they have, or plans for 13 nuclear ballistic subs and 11 nuclear attack class. The projection is they will grow to 110 subs by 2030, meaning they could have 50 nuclear subs.


This is a fabulous decision that is bigger than just buying a proven power generation system for a sub.........it leads into:
1) The SMR technologies that Australia has been assessing for years and will power our EV military fleet
2) Open the door for civilian use. Remember no jurisdiction on the planet with a renewables strategy, has clean energy without relying upon nuclear or hydro. Yet those with nuclear and hydro often become dirtier when they introduce renewables.........thus Australia can now set its course for a clean future, achieved by france, NZ, Ontario etc in the 1980s rather than following dirty Germany's failed model. The world will thank us for pursuing clean energy and saving their kids futures

 

[Baltimore Jack]

The Federal LNP went hard on Andrews when it was reported the Vic Government had spent $1.2B on the East-West link which would no longer be built

Birmingham has just admitted on Insiders that the LNP have spent $2.4B on the French Subs (to date, Compo may come on top of that)

 

[campbell]

The Federal LNP went hard on Andrews when it was reported the Vic Government had spent $1.2B on the East-West link which would no longer be built

Birmingham has just admitted on Insiders that the LNP have spent $2.4B on the French Subs (to date, Compo may come on top of that)

and he also admitted their is no deal in place just and agreement to look into.

He is being carved up mr Weasel words.

 

[Number37]

and he also admitted their is no deal in place just and agreement to look into.

He is being carved up mr Weasel words.

It should be sQomo getting carved up.

 

[campbell]

It should be sQomo getting carved up.

Indeed, but he is too scared.

 

[Number37]

Indeed, but he is too scared.

The only thing sQomo is any good at is completely avoiding any sort of responsibility for anything, ever.
Worse still his "trick" is simple: 'it wasn't me' or 'I don't know what you're talking about'

 

[Schneebly11]

France has recalled their ambassador to the US (and Australia) over this, the first time in history, they survived the American Revolution, the French Revolution, WW2, De Gaulle, the Iraq War but now the three amigos have totally pissed of one of their oldest allies. And taking 5 eyes down to 3.

It really just seems to be the last 3 Anglo nations dominated by Murdoch press influenced governments that want to desperately cling onto a worldview relevant to 1842. They haven’t realised the established global order of the last two centuries is changing, and especially the post 1945 and post Cold War world is changing rapidly, and a handful of nuclear powered subs based in Australia aren’t going to change that at all.

 

[Rob R]

France has recalled their ambassador to the US (and Australia) over this, the first time in history, they survived the American Revolution, the French Revolution, WW2, De Gaulle, the Iraq War but now the three amigos have totally pissed of one of their oldest allies. And taking 5 eyes down to 3.

It really just seems to be the last 3 Anglo nations dominated by Murdoch press influenced governments that want to desperately cling onto a worldview relevant to 1842. They haven’t realised the established global order of the last two centuries is changing, and especially the post 1945 and post Cold War world is changing rapidly, and a handful of nuclear powered subs based in Australia aren’t going to change that at all.

French response is just about domestic politics given Le Pen has been rapidly catching up since June.

On SM-G570F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Festerz]

I don't get your logic

The logic looks rock solid to me. But perhaps this more expansive article from the respected AsiaPacific Defence Reporter provides the clarification you need?

Australia stands up to China – by delaying submarine project for a decade - APDR

At least the plan to develop 12 Attack class submarines with French technology – as flawed as it was – had some chance of delivering a capability to the RAN around 2032.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

This paragraph in particular is worthy of digesting:

"To be in this position of changing direction again and “stabbing in the back” the French, after already doing so to the Japanese and the Swedes is a collective display of incompetence by successive governments, the Defence bureaucracy and the RAN. If it were not so serious, this lack of process and the squandering of billions of dollars resembles a family of orangutans trying to water a garden with a high-pressure hose."

 

[QuietB]

I don't get your logic

Re 0 submarines
1) We currentlyhave our 6 conventional sub, which we can extend the lives on
2) the french sub (if it were technically possible to build) would have been a marginal improvement but lacked modern warfare technologies like laser, drones and AI. Essentially would would have a warfare system more akin to the 1960s O-boats than a modern submarine (lasers, AI and drones)
3) The french subs COULD NEVER be built without nuclear, or inventing a new propulsion system, so we had 0 subs if we maintained the contract
4) We will get 4 Virginia class as interim capability and training for the 5yr and 10yr licensing requirements

Pissed off Allies
The french shouldn't have tendered a nuclear sub and promised conversion to a conventional sub without having a propulsion system. They had to deliver or face reality, as they have, at some stage. They have no cause to winge.

Mad Trading Partner
Why would a trading partner get mad for buying something they have, or plans for 13 nuclear ballistic subs and 11 nuclear attack class. The projection is they will grow to 110 subs by 2030, meaning they could have 50 nuclear subs.


This is a fabulous decision that is bigger than just buying a proven power generation system for a sub.........it leads into:
1) The SMR technologies that Australia has been assessing for years and will power our EV military fleet
2) Open the door for civilian use. Remember no jurisdiction on the planet with a renewables strategy, has clean energy without relying upon nuclear or hydro. Yet those with nuclear and hydro often become dirtier when they introduce renewables.........thus Australia can now set its course for a clean future, achieved by france, NZ, Ontario etc in the 1980s rather than following dirty Germany's failed model. The world will thank us for pursuing clean energy and saving their kids futures

It is a completely stupid decision.

The Federal LNP went hard on Andrews when it was reported the Vic Government had spent $1.2B on the East-West link which would no longer be built

Birmingham has just admitted on Insiders that the LNP have spent $2.4B on the French Subs (to date, Compo may come on top of that)

Birmingham was embarrassing today on Insiders. Trying to sell Morrison's s**t sandwiches.

 

[Admiral Byng]

France has recalled their ambassador to the US (and Australia) over this, the first time in history, they survived the American Revolution, the French Revolution, WW2, De Gaulle, the Iraq War but now the three amigos have totally pissed of one of their oldest allies. And taking 5 eyes down to 3.

It really just seems to be the last 3 Anglo nations dominated by Murdoch press influenced governments that want to desperately cling onto a worldview relevant to 1842. They haven’t realised the established global order of the last two centuries is changing, and especially the post 1945 and post Cold War world is changing rapidly, and a handful of nuclear powered subs based in Australia aren’t going to change that at all.

The French response seems a bit out of proportion to the cancellation of a commercial contract. Seems like they are more pissed off at the yanks than they are with us. They are also making noises like they thought this submarine contract was more about building French influence in the Indo-Pacific, and gaining some sort of strategic leverage and influence over Australian foreign policy. Now as everyone know, that level of influence we give to the yanks only, Australia is not even remotely that Francophile. They seem to be more offended by Australia switching back to true form on the US alliance than losing money on a submarine contract.

As far as I am concerned, this was about about buying submarines, tools of the trade, not becoming French.